Multiple pages and layers

Just wondering... How do you more experienced Xara users manage multiple-page projects with many objects on many layers? I tried searching the forums, but I couldn't find anything about this.

It seems that layers are shared across multiple pages in Xara. For example, if page 1 has layers named "lines", "colors", and "bitmaps", page 2 will have the same layers. If I delete the "lines" layer on page 2, it deletes the "lines" layer on all pages and everything on them.

So, what is the best way to manage and identify many objects - the Names Gallery, perhaps?

Also, is there a limit to how many layers a document can have? I thought about having separate lines, colors, and bitmaps layers for each page, but in a longer document (say 15 pages), would that cause undue problems?

Thanks!

Curious - I don't get that happen no matter which way I create new pages.

If I create layers before I create a new page, the named layers are reproduced on the new page.
But I can go back and delete the named layers on page 1 without it deleting the same named layer on page two (or vice-versa).

I tried a number of different approaches, but still couldn't get the layer to delete from all pages together.

Can you attach a file that does this for you?

I'm not much of a layer user, so it's possible I have missed something.

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Originally Posted by sledger

Curious - I don't get that happend no matter which way I create new pages.

If I create layers before I create a new page, the named layers are reproduced on the new page.
But I can go back and delete the named layers on page 1 without it deleting the same named layer on page two (or vice-versa).

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I, too, rely on multi-page documents. I opened an old drawing and deleted a layer from one page. The layer, and its contents, was deleted from all pages :eek: (all my pages are duplicates of my default template).

But, if I create a new multi-page drawing file, I notice the same thing you saw. :confused: The pages are independent, and deleting one layer does not affect the other pages. I then saved the drawing and reopened it. The same named layer on all pages would be deleted when a layer on one page was deleted.

So, deleting layers works differently depending upon if the file has been saved.

The attached file acts just like PixelDust describes. Fortunate for me, I do not use many layers because of the limitations in layer handling.

Yes you're right..
That's just silly.
I'll report this as a possible bug.

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Originally Posted by sledger

Yes you're right..
That's just silly.
I'll report this as a possible bug.

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It gets better. I've noticed strange layer behavior before, but never paid attention to it.

If you hide a layer in a saved file, the layer is hidden on all pages. Normally, this is what I want because I keep similar objects on certain layers and I move between pages during editing, so I normally want the same layers visible/invisible on all pages.

The odd thing that I never paid attention to before is that if I am working on a new document, checking the visible box or the editable box only affects the current page. I normally set up all my pages before I save a file for the first time.

[Edit:] Also, if you add a layer to one page, after saving the file, all pages have that layer.

My preference is to have the option to select that layers are independent between pages or common for all pages with same-named layers.

This might be best handled as a global condition applied in the Xtreme 'Options' perhaps?
eg:
Layers are independent across multipage docs (on / off)

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Originally Posted by sledger

This might be best handled as a global condition applied in the Xtreme 'Options' perhaps?
eg:
Layers are independent across multipage docs (on / off)

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I would be happy with that. :)

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Originally Posted by PixelDust

Just wondering... How do you more experienced Xara users manage multiple-page projects with many objects on many layers?

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Almost all my drawings are multi-page documents (usually 4 to 12 pages). In fact, I originally upgraded to Pro version 3 for the multi-page feature.

My default template has 7 defined layers with some preset, common objects spread among the layers. When I draw, I usually keep the majority of my objects on just one or two layers. I also make most of the other layers uneditable while I am working on one layer. I have the unfortunate tendency to select and move the wrong object. :(

I often use photos as guides for my illustrations, so I put all photos on one layer. I make the layer invisible when I no longer need to rely upon the photo. But, I keep the photo in the file for future editing and reference.

I sometimes make a layer named "hidden." I move objects that I don't like to the hidden layer. I make the hidden layer visible if I want to compare the old objects to what I have redrawn.

I occasionally create a layer if I have a complex portion of the drawing I am working on and I want to isolate it from nearby objects on the drawing. Being all thumbs, I often select the wrong object when I am clicking away. :(

It has also been suggested that text objects be placed in the topmost layer when the output is a pdf file. That is not an issue for me, but my topmost layer typically is where I put my text anyway. :) I use text as labels for various elements in my drawings. I probably should keep all my text on one layer. I tried that, but found that it was too much trouble remembering to switch between the layers when adding text or objects.

Steve,

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This might be best handled as a global condition applied in the Xtreme 'Options' perhaps?
eg:
Layers are independent across multipage docs (on / off)

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It is alreay handled this way! C'mon, you knew about it, didn't you? ;)
If you turn off "AllPagesTheSame" setting in the registry, it makes all pages completely independent. So they can have different size and personal set of layers too. That simple. :D

Yes I have this turned off already, but it doesn't seem to affect layers at all John.

Deleting a layer from a selected page of a multipage doc removes the layer from all pages if the document has been saved, closed and re opened.
Before saving, closing and re opening, deleting a layer only removes it only from the selected page.

Yes, it doesn't work with opened files. But it explains why you've had different behavior with PixelDust.
Don't forget, this is undocummented feature, ;)

Fair enough.
But good for you to know some of the problems right ;)

Yes. I may also add that the "correct" behavior is to have the same set of layers for every page. Just the way it works by default.

By "correct" you mean "Intended" ?

I submitt that there is a case for a new global condition in 'Options':
• Layers are independent across multipage docs (on / off)

Especially now that we have your HTML export filter ;)

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Originally Posted by covoxer

Steve,
It is alreay handled this way! C'mon, you knew about it, didn't you? ;)
If you turn off "AllPagesTheSame" setting in the registry, it makes all pages completely independent. So they can have different size and personal set of layers too. That simple. :D

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Thanks for the info, Covoxer. I read there is a registry hack that can do this, but when I tried it, nothing changed. I must have done it wrong. I'll do another search and see how to do it.

Anyway, when I first created my file, it had one page. Then I added another page later and saved it. Is there another way I should create a multi-page document? And if I apply the registry hack, will that change the behavior on a document I already worked on?

I agree with sledger that it would be easier to have that in the Options panel.

Thanks again for all the info.

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Originally Posted by covoxer

Steve,
It is alreay handled this way! C'mon, you knew about it, didn't you? ;)
If you turn off "AllPagesTheSame" setting in the registry, it makes all pages completely independent. So they can have different size and personal set of layers too. That simple. :D

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I don't think it is that simple, unless we are talking two different things. :confused:

I have a saved document: all the pages are formatted the same and I have the registry hack "AllPagesTheSame" turned off. If I delete a layer, it is removed from all pages.

For that same file, if I make one of the pages different than any other page, for example, landscape instead of portrait, and do not save that file, then deleting a layer on any page deletes the layer only on that page. If I then save that document, when I reopen it, the page that I deleted the layer has that layer restored (the contents are still gone). That is, all pages have the same layers.

If I open a saved file with pages formatted differently, deleting a layer on one page deletes it from all pages.

If "AllPagesTheSame" is turned on, then a layer deleted from one page is deleted from all pages. No surprise there. :D This is true even if the document was saved with differently formatted pages.

PatentGuy, that seems to be what's happening with me. I have the registry set to "All Pages the Same" off, and I can have different sized or oriented pages.

But all the pages have the same layers, and removing objects from a layer or removing the layer, removes it from all pages.

So, I guess I wasn't doing anything wrong. It seems the Name Gallery is what I should use, since I can have different names for different objects on different pages.

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Originally Posted by PixelDust

So, I guess I wasn't doing anything wrong. It seems the Name Gallery is what I should use, since I can have different names for different objects on different pages.

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If you want to have different layers for each page, I think the layer gallery would help. If the page numbers are fixed, you could organize the layer names by including the page number in the name.

Unfortunately, the name gallery is limited and if you have too many layers, it may get confusing very quickly. Others have requested a hierarchical structure for layers.

It sounds rather buggy.

Of course, what's really missing are master pages for layers that should be on every page and for the rest the layers should only exist on specific pages.

Definately.
And again, even more appropriate given the HTML export capabilities.

Oh well...

How it is supposed to work:
All pages are supposed to have exactly the same set of layers no matter what. This is a rule.

The tweak with AllPagesTheSame is not official feature, it was never even tested enough to make sure it is stable at all. I don't know which layer behavior was expected with AllPgaesTheSame=0, but it's easy to see, that it is not consistent.

So, if you have problems using AllPagesTheSame=0, I'm afraid I can't advice anything better then turn it to AllPagesTheSame=1.

The presence of the unique leyers for every page conflicts with Xara ideology. I suppose it's stated somwhere in the manual.

So, don't look for a way to have unique layers on every page. Learn to work with a global set of layers instead.

At least, until following realeases. ;)

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by covoxer

Oh well...

How it is supposed to work:
All pages are supposed to have exactly the same set of layers no matter what. This is a rule.

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Oh well.. The rule could be changed I think.

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Originally Posted by covoxer

I don't know which layer behavior was expected with AllPgaesTheSame=0, but it's easy to see, that it is not consistent.

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Effectively making all pages 'not' the same, I would assume changes the behaviour of all pages from being the same to no longer the same. IOW, each page of a multi-page doc being independent of other pages for layout/size/layers/guides etc. This actually works this way before you save the doc, so obviously it's possible. Until recently, it was unknown that certain independent features of all pages (being not the same), would be a problem and revert to Xara 'rulings' once saved. Yes it's an undocument feature, yes it isn't a Xara rule, but that doesn't mean it isn't desireable or indeed as of right now, a requested and supported feature.

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Originally Posted by covoxer

So, if you have problems using AllPagesTheSame=0, I'm afraid I can't advice anything better then turn it to AllPagesTheSame=1.

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Understood.

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Originally Posted by covoxer

The presence of the unique leyers for every page conflicts with Xara ideology. I suppose it's stated somwhere in the manual.

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I've not seen any statement from Xara in the manual about their ideology John.
I must say this 'like it or lump it' attitude isn't helpful.

As I have said a few times now, the ability to have each page of a multi-page doc treated indpendently and individually is desirable and a requested feature. It makes sense for many types of publications and is especially pertinent now that we have your HTML export funcionality. Before you reply saying that we must create seperate publications and then link them, that's not a solution - it's an excuse.

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Originally Posted by covoxer

So, don't look for a way to have unique layers on every page. Learn to work with a global set of layers instead.

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Why not? Why shouldn't we request a feature is added? Isn't this what user feedback is all about? Isn't this why Xara seek thousands of users to pay for upgrades, and why Xara/Magix are chasing new users? Funds for *development* ?
We aren't going to roll over and stop asking just because you say so..

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Originally Posted by sledger

We aren't going to roll over and stop asking just because you say so..

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Bravo! I could not have said it better. :D

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The rule could be changed I think.

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Yes.

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Effectively making all pages 'not' the same, I would assume changes

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It is onknown what it actually means (talking about this particular registry setting). It may or may not mean exactly what you say.

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I must say this 'like it or lump it' attitude isn't helpful.

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This is not attitude. This is a logical thinking. You have no other choices for now. So you really can only 'like it or lump it', at least until the next update.

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As I have said a few times now, the ability to have each page of a multi-page doc treated indpendently and individually is desirable and a requested feature.

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Agree.

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especially pertinent now that we have your HTML export funcionality

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Except that again, current version of the html export relay on the global layers model.

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Before you reply saying that we must create seperate publications

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No, I was not going to say that. I don't think that global layers approach is a problem with multipage sites.

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Why shouldn't we request a feature is added?

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Why not? Of course you should!
Except that you missinterpret what I say. I have never said that we are not going to change anything, I'm just trying to explaig how and possibly why it is this way now.

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We aren't going to roll over and stop asking just because you say so..

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Sure, but I may roll over and stop answering if you say so... :D

Good luck!