Taking 3D development to the next level

The new Xara Xtreme Pro 4 is fantastic. Despite being an Xara user from way back I have not bothered to upgrade since the first Xtreme version. Being a graphic designer and working most of the time on Apple Mac I use Adobe products most of the time.

The new versions html abilities sold me on an upgrade and I can see Xara Extreme becoming my favourite graphics tool again. (Where's that Mac version of Xara Extreme!)

The 3D tool is great, but I would like to see this taken to the next level and turned into a basic (not bloated) 3D editing feature, providing different views for editing and mesh manipulation. That would be extremely beneficial in my business.

lets not get xara bloated, it was meant for vector graphics but soon it is starting to develop a bulge that is gowning in size. ;)

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The 3D tool is great, but I would like to see this taken to the next level and turned into a basic (not bloated) 3D editing feature, providing different views for editing and mesh manipulation. That would be extremely beneficial in my business.

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I'll back that.

Welcome to the Xtreme Conference omegaman

Thanks Gary.

I think its the next logical step and I know it can be done without the bloat, because that's what make Xara great!

Whatever the future holds for XaraXtreme developement, I do hope for continued improvment to the installer.
Additions such as you suggest could be offered as install options - 'modules' if you will (and even some new & old features that already exist but which are not used by many), therefore any potential 'bloat' could be avoided by those 'module' choices the user makes.

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Originally Posted by behzad

lets not get xara bloated, it was meant for vector graphics but soon it is starting to develop a bulge that is gowning in size. ;)

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It was actually designed to be the best graphics application available. Vector graphics are the superset of all graphics, including bitmap handling, hence why the vector approach is the main focus. But it is not the only focus, as we're now more clearly seeing. A more advanced 3D functionality would still come under the umbrella of "vector" graphics, and so couldn't really be defined as bloat (and I wouldn't be against it).

In fact "bloat" is another term that's frequently misunderstood or misused. People often claim something that is there but not used by them as 'bloat'. A less subjective and more objective description would be that bloat is something that is both less frequently used and implemented in a way that its presence diminishes work flow relative to before it was there, for example, by adding mountains of options and dialogues and new menu entries when something could be done much more efficiently. So bloat is really related to inefficiency.

I'm not sure I can see how a fully-capable (even if 'basic') 3D modelling interface could be built into Xara. Making a usable modelling interface is *hard* even without the problem of integrating it with 2D vector editing stuff.

I'd strongly suggest looking at Sketchup if you haven't already: it's the only even halfway-usable modelling UI I've ever seen, and what's more you can now get it for free from Google. And exporting 2D vector models for further work in Xtreme is easy using PDF.

I just don't want to see xara become illustrator.
The architecture of illustrator and photoshop is very old. Indesign is fresh and new but what I was trying to say is that xara should not become like illustrator it should become better :D

I still disagree with having more 3d in xara, the 3d text is okay as is. There are ton of 3d programs that can do everything you ever want for incorporating into a 2d layout.

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Originally Posted by Xhris

A more advanced 3D functionality would still come under the umbrella of "vector" graphics, and so couldn't really be defined as bloat (and I wouldn't be against it).

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Sorry, i can´t agree with this statement. The way 3d is implemented in Xara Xtreme 4 is everything less vector. All the 3d effects are rendered bitmaps. You can´t convert the resulting 3d solids to 2d shapes either. You don´t have any way to control the geometry generated by the 3D engine except by changing some predefined values. Besides this, i can´t see how 3d functionality could be compared to vector except when creating the initial shapes/paths to be extruded/revolved whatever... (and most on the time 3d programs use b-splines to create them not bezier).
More advanced 3d features would mean something similar to the already mencioned Google Sketchup. It´s a "geometric" modeler in the sense it doesn´t allow to create organic shapes and relatively basic compared to a full featured 3d application like Cinema 4D or 3D Studio MAX.

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Originally Posted by behzad

I still disagree with having more 3d in xara, the 3d text is okay as is. There are ton of 3d programs that can do everything you ever want for incorporating into a 2d layout.

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Agreed. Besides this Xtreme 4 already has expanded it´s ground a lot with the HTML export abilities, Bitmap handling, desktop publishing capabilities etc while the core vector tools remains the same...

About the only thing I'm personally missing out on in the 3D extrude area here is some sort of 3D transform manipulator like Blender has (and whatever apps the blender developers got the idea from). Being able to explicitly rotate an extrusion about any axis in a foolproof manner would be awesome. I find using the angle 1, 2 and 3 drop boxes and the slider to be.. not as good.. ;)

I'm not convinced that full 3D mesh editing is all that great an idea, personally. I fall into the "I already have an application that does that for me" camp. Bad things start happening when applications try to be all things to all people, what with people being different and all.

Odat I love your avatar, you look so nerdy and fun.

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Originally Posted by Odat

Bad things start happening when applications try to be all things to all people, what with people being different and all.

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On one hand I agree. But I DO believe that Xara can be all things to a guy like me.

I don't use ANY other programs for anything. I don't have photoshop, illustrator or flash. I'm not a professional graphic artist (Nor do I play one on TV) but I do a lot of things for work. Some print, some web, and now even some flash animations. Xara does it all!!!

Every time they add something new - I'm completely happy about it. It's still fast and the upgrades are VERY reasonably priced.

Thanks Xara!

I don't think you guys really undestand how much more complex 3D is. Why do you think that after years of development, Xara 3D is still so comparatively primitive [no pun intended]. Look at what it cannot do that we take for granted in every other part of Xara. e.g. try applying a gradient to an extrusion or to taper it. What it does now is handy enough for adding a little pizzaz or prototyping ideas but taking it any further in a useful manner is a waste of effort IMHO. Whatever gets added will only set-off an cascade of further requests and if you look at Sketchup, which is $495 if you want to be able to export your work, you might get some idea of the cost of developing this stuff. Then you need to look at how to integrate it into Xar's layout and it gets messier and messier.

Heh, I love the way you define it as primitive by stating what it can't do. That line of argument can be used to highlight the inferiority of anything. But, erm, the 3D extrude is 'primitive' because it is version 1 of the tool. It represents merely less than 1 year's work (excluding the fact that most of the engine work was done in X3D), and it was also developed alongside other tools for the release. There was probably one or two people working on it during that short time. It was started after the release of Xara 3.2 and took this long to start because it was not priority, not because it is somehow more difficult or complex than anything else. The purpose of the tool isn't to generate 3D models etc.; it is to generate 3D extrusions (the clue is in the name!) for graphical effects, which it does more slickly and with higher quality results than any comparable software (read: AI or CD). It's obviously going to be improved over time like everything else, but we'll have to wait to see how and how quickly.

Let's have a comic strip:
Person A: Uh, I can't believe Team 1 developed a torch...don't they know how complex radar in general is?
Team 1: ...But we only intended to use it as a local illumination device and not a full distant scanning device...and it works perfectly, just as we intended.
Person A: ...Waste of time. Just look at all the things it can't do...
:)

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Originally Posted by behzad

lets not get xara bloated, it was meant for vector graphics but soon it is starting to develop a bulge that is gowning in size. ;)

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well said... I vote for no bloating. Maybe Xara could enhance X3D instead to offer what you are after? That program always seems a little 'lite' on features.

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Originally Posted by Xhris

Heh, I love the way you define it as primitive by stating what it can't do. That line of argument can be used to highlight the inferiority of anything. But, erm, the 3D extrude is 'primitive' because it is version 1 of the tool. It represents merely less than 1 year's work (excluding the fact that most of the engine work was done in X3D), and it was also developed alongside other tools for the release. There was probably one or two people working on it during that short time. It was started after the release of Xara 3.2 and took this long to start because it was not priority, not because it is somehow more difficult or complex than anything else.

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Actually, Xara 3D is at version 6 and is very primitive indeed. I imagine that all the work done was simple integration, which I think they've done quite well. But if you want to take it to another level, it will get a lot more complex very quickly. To use 3DS Max as an example, bevel and extrusion is the most basic modifier I can think of, yet it is much more useful than anything in this tool. It is also something that forms a very small part of the overall process.

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The purpose of the tool isn't to generate 3D models etc.; it is to generate 3D extrusions (the clue is in the name!) for graphical effects, which it does more slickly and with higher quality results than any comparable software (read: AI or CD).

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I agree completely, but we're not talking about what it can do now. This is what the OP asked for - "I would like to see this taken to the next level and turned into a basic (not bloated) 3D editing feature, providing different views for editing and mesh manipulation" - and that is what I was responding to. I work for Autodesk, with a product with a full 3D environment [Toxik]. I used to work with Combustion, which does not have a 3D environment, and never, ever will, despite everyone wanting it to. I work very closely with development and I have some idea of what might be involved, hence my comments. Sorry if it bursts your bubble.

I wouldn't like to see Xara go mad into 3D and very much doubt if they will. They seem simply to have integrated quite an old product into their suite of tools. And why not? Whilst it’s limited, it does have its uses.

Since the launch of XXP4, I've been taking more of an interest in examples of extrusions that I see around me. It's quite clear that Xara will never be able to compete on the level that you see in big commercial advertising. But, and this is a big but, I have managed to replicate much of what I've seen really very passably and very quickly too.

If I was to make one suggestion for a specific improvement it would be good to be able to extrude grouped objects and have all the elements within the group maintain the colour of their outlines.

Like this

http://www.hamish.plus.com/xara/extrude.jpg

If I was to write a wish list for Xara however, it wouldn't make the top 10.

I have a suspicion that the extrude tool will be improved to be more like X3D first of all. In the longer term, given that the competition (AI) can do volumes of revolution etc., Xara may match that with time, as well as expanding the functionality of extruding. I've no idea how 'CAD-like' it will become though eventually. What can be virtually guaranteed is that no matter what is done, it will be done efficiently, slickly, speedily, and so as to generate minimum bloat (i.e. minimally interfere with all current Xara use--which is the correct definition of bloat).