What do you all think, you don't have to add a message if you don't want, just vote anonymously.
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What do you all think, you don't have to add a message if you don't want, just vote anonymously.
It's difficult to say. There are some detail improvements and also some new features which are pointless in my eyes.
Remi
The minor additions are nice. Some of them are very nice.
But the inclusion of Xara3D (which has never struck me as anything much more than a toy) is fairly pointless.
There are many other vector features that would elevate Xara to extreme greatness, but in my view, they aren't here in this release.
i bought it, since I am on the upgrade path it did not cost much. I am glad they fixed the shape (clipping) path issue, the Extrude is interesting, kind of limited in its application though, I do not use photo tools all that much but that and the html export are probably important tools for many people. But I too have waited for several releases for new and innovative vector tools, being a vector devotee and junkie. Maybe someday Xara will return to their roots, maybe not, who knows.
adios,
sunland
I upgraded from 3.0 before i tried it. I thought the "dirty-booleans" :) bugfix would be worth it, it's not that expensive duh! Guessing that the few minor slowdown issues will be solved soon.
But also i'm somehow disappointed in what direction xara development is pushing.
In don't want the next release to integrate a wave editor to manipulate sounds in my xara flash files.
I got the underlined-text joke, hehehe.
But i still like some of minor improvemets.
As a "hobbyist" I think it's wonderful! I can understand that a professional might not be so impressed perhaps - because of certain tools not being as they would wish for instance - but there again it seems a fair number of regular contributors here who use Xara in tandem with other programs for their work are impressed too.
Personaly, I think Xara are getting the balance right. They're not out to challenge Adobe-type stuff.
This comes up every upgrade. Charles Moir made it quite clear what direction he would be pursuing some time ago.
"We do have an integrated bitmap / photo editor, because in principle I don't believe you can or should separate the two worlds. Real users want to mix photos and vector artwork, and so it's simply more convenient to be able to do this directly from within your vector editor..."
http://www.talkgraphics.com/showpost...39&postcount=6
That this appeals to hobbyists more than professionals, is perhaps not surprising, but that is where it is going. And the broader audience will likely do more to keep the product alive than a few features that some pros would find useful, but would never make it an Illustrator killer. Limited resources being what they are, I think it's a smart choice.
For my part, I wouldn't call it a panacea, but it is clearly an improvement I'm happy to pay for. More than I could wish for? Hardly. I can wish for alot!
Perhaps expanding the market will eventually give Xara the funds necessary to implement some of the features the pros want...
We should try to overcome the "Hobbyist" vs. "Pro" discussion. There are already two Xara Xtreme versions available and it's really no problem, if some users have greater expectations/higher demands on the "Pro" version.
I've voted for the "Some nice minor improvements" option, but I'm also not happy that new vector tools are so far down on the priority list.
Remi
I referred to myself as a hobbyist because of this on the other thread:
"No New Vector Tools And Some Slight Alterations And Some Crap To Keep The Hobbists Happy!!!!" [post # 111]
I have no problem with being a hobbyist (using XXPro4), nothing against "pros" and no problem whatever with people who have higher expectations and express that (though calling it "crap" is going a bit too far imho :) ), indeed I wouldn't want Xara to turn into a build-your-own-photo-album application, but I just wanted to express my opinion that I think Charles & Co have got the balance right re introducing new/improved features. I also enjoy reading these kind of debates because they are informative usualy, as with the majority of stuff on TG.
Long may it continue :)
I love the new X4...people can still use Xtreme if they just want pure vector. Business is business xara has to survive and needs to keep up with the other pro 'vector' programs. I like it, less and less do I need to get out of Xara..tj
I like the new upgrades, but as a user for fun (hobbyist), I have no idea what professional users need, and draw too infrequently to have formed firm ideas on anything else I want.
I agree with sledger too. The results of a poll can be skewed by the way the questions are asked. Excellent, good, fair, disappointing and poor would have been better than the way the "answers" were worded.
I am not a spokesperson for Xara/Magix, but I do run a small business.
You have to appreciate the need for wider appeal for a company to survive and to continue selling their product, thereby increasing their customer base. Xara/Magix won't be profiting much at all by selling upgrades to a percentage of existing customers, as we have seen, some people are happy to stay with X1 for their drawing needs, the company needs new customers to buy full versions - this is what growth is.
Also, when there are mergers/aquisitions, certain policies and directives must surely change, that much is inevitable. The software must now appeal to a wider audience - and more people understand photo editing than they do vector illustration.
As has been said, you loose nothing by the new features, yet many will gain from them. If your work won't benefit from any of these, then there's no need to upgrade is there? It's a choice for everyone to make.
In-so-far-as suggesting using other software to complete raster / 3D or other non-vector tasks I can say this with absolute certainty, in the sign industry as I know it, where designs for vinyl plotters as well as wide-format digital printers are involved, where all manner of file types are submitted by clients, application hopping to first 'open' the darn file (type) and then to recreate or create from a new a design which encorporates both vector and raster elements is most definately NOT appreciated. Every single person I have spoken to regarding the software they must use on a daily basis are screamng out for an application that does it all! They waste time everyday having to hop from one application to another in order to arrive at the finish. The frustration they endure trying to learn how the other software works, new naming new shortcut keys, not to mention the expense to buy. Busy sign shops employ people to produce signs, not sit around for hours getting annoyed with multiple learning curves. It's not efficient, it's costly and it's time wasting. Also bear in mind that sign shops do not always have the latest and greatest PC hardware to work with..
If Xtreme could drive a vinyl cutter (or router/engraver) and had better import/export filters then it would be a no brainer for many many more users.
In my opinion the direction Xtreme is taking is a logical, organic & ergonomic one.
I use Xpro for both Hobby and Profession. I think there has been tools added/worked on that will help both the Pro and the hobbiest.
More and more I use Xara and the other tools less and less. Mainly just as proofing tools to make sure the next guy in line gets a good product.
I am a hobbyist. Use XXP for our business which needs the PDF export.
I still use external editors to handle my bitmap and animation editing. Habit and extra tools that are not available in XXP pull me back to them. Having more bitmap editing within XXP may make it easier and faster in the long run if I don't have to jump back and forth between apps.
If the new tools do not pertain to you, then ignor them.
Skip an upgrade.
I skipped the last update as it did not add enough for ME to justify the purchase for both home and work machines (company pays for one, I pay for the other). In my opinion, this upgrade has enough (combined with the last one) to justify the price.
If the addition of some of these non-vector elements is disturbing to pro users because it waters down a pure product, consider it the price to pay to be sure your vector product will continue to be supported and developed. To many good tools drop out because the purists don't keep upgrading and there's no money coming in....
Besides UltraEdit, Xara 4 was pretty much my fastest upgrade ever. I installed, decided I like the new features and bought it.
For me too, of course, some changes are more of interest than others. As I usually use PagePlus when it comes to using text, my decision was not based on the new repel function for example. My favorite for daily work is 3D extrusion which works quick and easy.
As I enhance my photographs with the Canon Software, I did not even look at the changes there yet. But who knows....
The live font display is something I appreciate.
Summed up, although some of the new functions I do not use (yet), all changes were positive for me so far.
Juergen
I don't agree with this at all. Whilst there are hobbyist-focused features in Xara, having non-destructive bitmap handling built-in is not one of them. Being able to work with bitmaps and live effects inside Xara saves everyone time, professionals included.Quote:
That this [bitmap integration] appeals to hobbyists more than professionals, is perhaps not surprising, but that is where it is going.
Sure, we've got Photoshop* and we could easily export-process-import between the two every time we change something, but that's hardly efficient or fun. For me even something as simple as the new bicubic zoom-out in VHQ mode is a big advantage: finally I can use Xara for rendering without having to do a manual supersample-and-resize. (Although, an automatic supersample option would still be greatly appreciated.)
(* - or other appropriate bitmap editing. Personally I can't stand Photoshop, but then since I don't much like any of the other major bitmap packages either, complaining about it isn't very useful.)
I would never have thought of the 3D extrusion idea within XX. Pure genius.
X4 has gone very bitmap but at the end of the day it is still a great vector application and still a young promising product.
All in all, X4 has inspired my creativity, which means more earnings.
I think Charles is way ahead of everyone.
I think that xara have got the balance just right this time - it will 'shift product'.
That can only be good for the future of xara and for the aspirations of its current users re new tools etc.
other points I might make already covered
Bit of a 'c**p' job on the poll options there JA - IMO ;)
This is an interesting thread and it is true ---> There really is no need for anyone to be rude. This thread does highlight that as users we do not all share the same priorities or use Xtreme for the same things. That is okay.
It is important that those who would have preferred more development on the drawing tools have a voice. It seems that sometimes around here at Talkgraphics we sometimes forget that we as a relatively small group are not all the people using Xara. Even if it seems like the majority around here appear to be non-professional users of Xara, it does not mean there aren't lots of professional users out there. Many pros don't spend time hanging out at forums - their voices can go unheard. The few that do hang out here are a great resource for the rest of us. They deserve the same respect as anybody else without subtle (and not so subtle) intimations that they aren't welcome or that their viewpoints should be dismissed.
Regards, Ross
honest opinion - about the poll options - not you
I have been involved in canvassing and MR - these questions are not going to produce a meaningful result ;)
I found Xara superior to any other vector tools in many ways and have expressed it many times.
Some new features, espescially the multi-core and the color dropper have definite advantages.
But I would've expect some ui tweaking, for example maybe the align and layer dialog windows or some kind of slider controls for brush width.
A paint bucket would have been also much appreciated also for my part...
Regards,
Marc
With all due respect Ross, I don't get the sense that is what is being implied on this thread. Without the professionals TG would not be what it is and all contributors are given parity, I can't see where the notion that professionals - or anyone - are not made welcome comes from frankly. Which is why the comment, "Some Crap To Keep The Hobbists Happy!!!!" in the original thread jarred a nerve, implying that non-professionals are not able to appreciate the finer points of Xara. Some users of Xara (in part or entirely) for work want specific improvements now, some see the development process providing these over time, but there are non-professional users who are just as adept who contribute here and I (though obviously not including myself in the latter category :D ) thought the above comment, while being an opinion, was rude and badly expressed. Apropos of that, I think Steve's opinion - which I agree with for what that's worth - of the question choice used terminology reflecting that in the above comment so he wasn't being rude in my opinion ... if you throw stones expect some back.
Hope this comes over as it is meant - I've had nothing but respect here and give respect and on the whole the same goes for all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express that opinion and I don't think there is a prevailing dichotomy between "hobbyists" and professionals.
We're all (well, mostly) enjoying Xara. Let's get on with it, eh? Please :)
neodeist - yes it is a two way street. Treating non-professionals as less important or inferior users isn't appropriate either.
And I can see that yes I was overstating what I said was being 'implied'. Still we don't have many professionals active in this community - it is probably for many reasons but the reason should never be that they aren't welcome or that their viewpoints are irrelevant to the ways many of us use Xtreme.
Regards, Ross
Agree totally :)
Bottom line is this ... if you're a professional using Xara you primarily will use it for it's powerful vector capabilities to create illustrations, layouts (brochure, web, etc), draw icons, maybe even create art (like me). A professional will really dislike to turn something from a vector into a rastor to play around with effects for three simple reasons 1. there are better tools out there to do such editting, 2. it makes it less edittable, 3. it's not longer 100% scalable.
It's just a feeling / a sense of Vectors as a medium which is the important thing. And support for that feeling. I feel that the illustrators are being more and more left out in the cold by Xara Ltd. With each new release Xara draws futher away from it's roots and alienates it's original core user base even futher! From X2 onwards it's clearly said Vectors are no longer important to us or Xtreme as a product. At the end of the day a lot of the improvements they can impliment on this side of things is not even that complex - the new photo-editting features are far more complex to impliment.
Most professionals create flash animations in FLASH, do image editting in PHOTOSHOP, use DREAMWEAVER to create html or better still handcode. They want new vector tools.
If chasing the hobbyist dollar is what Xara want to do, good luck to them but in the meantime the likes of Illustrator or Expression will catch up to what made Xara the best vector application out there.
This poll clearly shows it's split down the middle 50% are happy with the new RASTER features and 50% are probably not. So the 50% that have had that fill on X4 should be greatful and the 50% which don't see it as a great step forward should be looked after in X5 - i.e. New Vector Tools please.
I have used Illustrator (when I had to) and did not like it. Felt the same with other Adobe products...necessary evil sometimes... Don't remember hearing anyone on any forum actually say they LIKE to use or look forward to using PS or ILL...
I respect the work that others have accomplished with this product and tip my hat to the professionals. I sincerely hope the XXP product will continue to develop tools that help these professionals accomplish their work faster and easier! Their work inspires, allows others to dream. That same work, showcased on the forum and in the workbooks attracts hobbyists like me to the product, expanding the sales base.
Joke Artist,
I understand what you are saying but there are some items that I disagree with in your postAs a "Hobbyist" I also dislike any part of the drawing turned into raster - and avoid using effects if possible for that reason - you imply that only a professional can appreciate that.
I've been using Xara since CorelXara 1.1 and still have the two copies that I bought installed on my home PC's - Doesn't that make me an original core user, and I don't feel alienated - Far from it.This poll shows nothing of the sort - It seems to show that only 25% are disappointed with the upgrade. The some nice minor improvements is a catch all between "Fantastic" and "Nothing to tempt me" Doesn't actually show that people are upset. As I said in a much earlier post. The categories were badly thought out if you are trying to prove something. (I'm not trying to be offensive, just stating a point).
Just a note - I don't find anything you have posted rude or insulting. Your comments have been well thought out (even if presented a little forcefully), it's just that I'm looking at this from a different place to you. Best wishes for things you want in the next upgrade. This thread may even go some way to convincing Xara to do something for the pure vector lovers (of which I am one) in the next upgrade.
1) Still can't get away from the fact that to develop new tools you need money - to get money you need sales.
[and a lot of code and recoding and man-hours will be involved]
xara is getting this right I reckon
2) I think it was Bill [soquili] who said one definition of a true professional is that they produce the requirement with whatever tools they have.
This may well be one reason there are not as many professionals as non-professionals on the forum - they are doing just that.
I think the professional/hobbist argument is pretty sterile. I know professional designers who freely admit they cannot draw, and amateurs who produce work that would have possibly sent Michaelangelo home crying.
The only real difference sometimes is how quick they work- not what tools they use.
So I see the argument for improvements - but they have got to be done right, it takes time - there is a lot of code to be overhauled as I understand it.
3) 'Fraid the poll will prove nothing, whatever the outcome - it is neither representationally nor demographically constructed of the whole user base population - the options are unbalanced and the results will be skewed.
apologies if I have offended anyone in this thread ...
I didn't say dissappointed with the upgrade ... you're twisting my words. I said maybe not happy with the great new raster features ... i.e. those who are happy with minor improvements, (the better shortcut editting, moving of the inkdropper, underline improventents, boolean clipping now works, etc) plus those that are dissappointed which is 50%.
You can be happy with the small improvements but that's not the major changes to it is it.
Ok maybe I did a little - I was trying to be careful what I said.
What I meant was you can't use the "Some nice minor improvments (was waiting for text underline)!" to show Not happy" since the next option up was "Fantastic". I personally love this upgrade, but didn't vote for "Fantastic" because I too would have like to see other items/concerns addressed. But I'm right at the top of "Some nice minor improvments (was waiting for text underline)!" and extremely far from not happy.
@JA,
I think your analogy towards flash doesn't add up,
there are a lot that create flash without flash,because of the learning curve and bloated workspace,just alike illustrator,mainly all Adobe ware.
When you are saying that you are an illustrator then you must know that
only your tool is vector but in the end it's just a bitmap.
And if you want to make vector shapes for only showing on the net it's even more a waste of time because the computer of your audience needs to recalculate every vector point you have drawn.
(hey isn't that why Xara exports to png when creating a HTML file :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )
So come down from your tower and join the plebs and just use your tools what they're made for.
(i don't complain either why my coffee machine cannot take my kids to school on a rainy day)
I just like Xara because,....
I do
Hans
it's more of a bugfix, no?
Yeah but i think Xara is running in exactly this direction. Making it a "egg-laying-wool-milk-sod" (direct translation from a german saying, an all-in-one device suitable for every purpose).
I think JokeArtist makes some very valid points, Xara should concentrate more on the vector tools, i don't see how anyone could disagree with that, given that the last updates didn't do anything in this direction.
edit: i voted being happy with the minor improvements, which i am, but still i am disappointed on feature priority
bug fix yes - minor no
patience - it will come :) - you cannot build Rome overnight..... first you need commercial success upon which to build - then you can develop new tools
xara nearly went to the wall once I would not like to see that situation again - or no one is going to get any new tools of any sort....
I beg to differ,
Only the so called plain,normal people makes the world and the money go round and notthose few who like to dictate.
Take a look at MS,they wanted to dictate the world but are now paying the billions of dollars prize to undo what they thought should be done.
Take a look at all the compromises MS makes towards the open source community,ooxml(just granted as ISO standard today) IE8 being more compatible with w3c.
In this JA is dictating that this great product should lean more to the vectors but that would mean the so called general public puts it aside,which make no more funds to develop Xara in the future and it will become extinct.
The analogy with my coffee machine was being sarcastic,because it wasn't made for taking my kids to school and never will be,that's my job.
Hans