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Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Illustrator owns a LivePaint tool, CorelDRAW owns the same function and with the next release, Inkscape also offers the same tool under the name "Paint Bucket tool".
I would love to see such a function in Xara Xtreme.
Regards,
Remi
This is the description of the planned Paint Bucket tool from Inkscape:
Paint Bucket tool
The new Paint Bucket tool works exactly as you would expect: click in any area bounded on all sides and it will fill it with color. Being a vector tool, however, Inkscape's Paint Bucket just creates a new path that "fills in" the area in which you clicked.
It is important to note that the tool is perceptual, not geometric. That is, when looking for the boundaries around the point you clicked, it takes for such boundaries any visible color changes. This means that filling will stop at gradients, blurs, and even the color boundaries in imported bitmaps, but will ignore any paths or other objects that are fully (or almost) transparent or for any other reason do not stand out from the background. In short, it will work exactly as if you were filling a rasterized version of your image in a bitmap editor like Photoshop or GIMP - but will give you a vector object to work with.
For example, now you can scan a pencil sketch, import the bitmap into Inkscape, and quickly fill all its cells with colors even without tracing the bitmap first. This is a very convenient and interactive way of digitizing your paper drawings, making the traditional bitmap tracing unnecessary in many cases.
Internally, the tool works by performing a bitmap-based flood fill on a rendered version of the visible canvas, then tracing the resulting fill using potrace and placing the traced path into the document.
It places the rendered path onto the current layer, so you can have a layer on top (for example, "Inks") and select the layer below ("Colors") and do the fills so that they always appear below the Inks.
The resolution of the bitmap image used to perform the trace is dependent upon your current zoom level -- the more zoomed in to an area that you are, the higher the resolution of the bitmap-based flood fill. So, if you are got a fill that is too imprecise, has rough corners, or don't go into small nooks and appendices where it is supposed to go, just undo, zoom in closer and repeat filling from the same point. Conversely, if the fill leaks out through a small gap, zoom out to make the gap less visible and fill again.
Like all object-creating tools, the Paint Bucket may use the last-set style for the objects it creates (this is the default), or it can use its own fixed style. You can switch between these modes on this tool's page in Inkscape Preferences (Ctrl+Shift+P).
In the tool's Controls bar:
- Tolerance (set in per cent units) controls how large must be color difference at a point (compared to the initial click point) to stop the fill. Zero tolerance means only the area of strictly the same color will be filled; the larger the tolerance, the easier it will be for the fill to leak into adjacent different-color areas. The default value is 10%.
- You can control the amount of inset/outset to be applied to the created fill path. Setting a positive outset causes fill paths to be larger than the filled bitmap area (good for eliminating anti-aliasing errors), while setting a negative outset causes the path to be smaller. This works the same as the Outset and Inset path commands.
- Paint Bucket's perceptual fill can use either all visible colors or specific color channels. You can restrict the fill algorithm to the following channels:
- Red
- Green
- Blue
- Hue
- Saturation
- Lightness
- Alpha
- A style swatch on the far right of the bar shows the style that will be used for the next fill object you create.
The tool's shortcuts are:
- Single click performs filling from the click point.
- Shift+click performs filling from the click point and then unions the resulting path with the selected path. This way, if your first attempt did not fill in all of the desired area, you can Shift+click the remaining corner to fill it in separately and combine the result with the result of the previous fill.
Some potential improvements to the tool are:
- If the [Ctrl] key is held down, clicking on an object changes the fill color to the current fill color, and [Shift]-[Ctrl] changes the stroke color to the current stroke color
source: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/ReleaseNotes046
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Mmmmm, interesting. Could you go into a little more detail?
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Hi Bob,
the idea behind the LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool is simple:
- Select the LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool and click on a point in your drawing
- The tool starts to search all the underlying pixels (yes pixels, not only vectors) with (nearly) the same colour, until it reaches another colour.
- This search process goes with each pixel around your starting point, until the tool reaches all the points with the same colour in this area.
- Now, the tool knows the form of the area and is able to build a vector form around the recognized area (the Xara developers can use the algorithms of the Xara Bitmap Tracer for doing this).
- The so created shape is filled with the current fill/line colour and all the current attributes like transparency, shadow...
Take a look at the following Illustrator videos, to see the LivePaint tool in action:
Regards,
Remi
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
One of these days, InkScape is going to be a brilliant tool... as good as or better than commercialware. My only serious complaint is the slow rendering, but that is only because I use Xara which sets the standard, though this IS a matter addressed in InkScape's latest release... impressive improvements expected.
I worry that now Xara will need to compete with other packages on a larger scale and that many of the best features will be neglected as the corporate 'be all things to all people' mentality bleeds the core functions. but... i digress.
As for tools, user definable, nested galleries/toolboxes is the solution i would want.
geo.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Remi, this is indeed a very cool feature. Let's hope Xara LTD is at least looking at your post.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
It wouldnīt be better if the tool was vector based instead of pixel based?
The inkscape description states that the selected area is based on an image rendering of the current work that is then traced by potrace. Why not use boolean operations instead to determine the selected area? It would be much more precise clean and sharp. (althought in the inkscape case the tracing engine is absolutely great)
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Yes ! Very interesting indeed for workflow and creativity !!!
I place it in new asked drawing facilities as vectorizing blur steps or shadows (asked a long time ago by somebody I didn't remember) or Group Drawing I proposed recently (but perhaps not understand by people because I didn't get any replies) : http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthread.php?t=26602
kindly,
ivan
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
wow PLEASE implement this!!!!
it would make drawing cartoons SO MUCH EASIER
ROnC
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Miguel B.
It wouldnīt be better if the tool was vector based instead of pixel based?
The inkscape description states that the selected area is based on an image rendering of the current work that is then traced by potrace. Why not use boolean operations instead to determine the selected area? It would be much more precise clean and sharp. (althought in the inkscape case the tracing engine is absolutely great)
Hi Miguel,
I think, working with vectors is the technique of Adobe Illustrator's LivePaint tool. But the approach of the Inkscape team is much more flexible, because of the following reasons:
- It sounds to me, that Inkscape's planned "Paint Bucket tool" is able to handle (simple or more complex) vector objects and also (scanned or imported) bitmaps to find pixels of similiar values.
Instead of searching only for vector objects, the tool does a fast render of the nearest area and uses well known bitmap-based algorithms for the further search for bounds.
The problem is, that the colours of the underlying pixels are more important for selecting areas, instead of the real coordinates of the underlying shapes. The vector shapes in your Xara Xtreme drawing could be simple shapes but with complex fills/transparencies, so that the approach to following only the vector form isn't flexible enough.
- A lot of users knows the tools of bitmap editors, but don't know much about vector tools. From time to time we all see questions from beginners here, who asks for a "Magic Wand Tool" within Xara Xtreme. OK, we all are able to explain the differences between bitmap editors and vector editors and why there is nothing like a "Magic Wand Tool" in a vector graphics editor. But if we think about it, we have to accept the fact, that the "bitmap way" (using a simple tool to find similar pixels and places a selection around) is more intuitive than the "vector way" (creating new shapes by hand over a imported bitmap).
- This tool offers an easy way to trace a bitmap "by hand". All these approachs with monolithic Bitmap tracers are not satisfying in my eyes. Yes, we can study all the possibilites of Xara Xtreme's Bitmap Tracer or Potrace or Illustrator's LiveTrace, but in the end, the results are often shapes with too much point handles. We all know the pain, to work with these terrible shapes.
On the one hand, it seems that's not possible to develop a really clever Bitmap Tracer (who would trace images the way, we are able to do by hand), but then this doesn't mean, that's not possible to develop a clever "Bitmap Tracing Assistant Tool". These "Paint Bucket tool" is one step in the right direction: Tracing a bitmap step by step together with little instructions by the user. With such a tool we should be able to trace a scanned or imported bitmap within a minute or two.
Remi
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Remi
I am eagerly awaiting the inkscape 0.46 release.
I totally agree with rpc9943, it will make cartooning a lot easier - in fact, for my normal cartoon work purposes it may [sadly] cut xara out of the loop altogether, but it depends on how well it is implemented.
I can see a senario whereby my black pencil drawings are scanned in to photoshop [which removes red[blue] layout pencil by splitting channels]
then inkscape vectors them [which 'inks' them too]
AND then colors them
Job done.
And as getting vectors from xara to inkscape can be a pain - what original vector drawing I have to do for these jobs will quite likely be done in inkscape also.
Not just for cartoons either thinking about it.....
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
I use Live Paint tools in AI fairly fequently and like the PS style colour fill proposed by inkscape but like other people have mentioned it would be better if the fill would be vector and not bitmapped. Yes this would be a good tool to used in Xara but my request would be for a vector style fill as in AI.
Everyone are making requests at the moment for better and different tools at the moment. My simple request would be to ask the Xara removes all the small bugs that have been reported for years and to sort out the programme that we have got especially in the brushes area. I have no interest on how the brushes are rendered and how it is technically done I just wish that I had brushes in Xara as I have in AI.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Albacore
Everyone are making requests at the moment for better and different tools at the moment. My simple request would be to ask the Xara removes all the small bugs that have been reported for years and to sort out the programme that we have got especially in the brushes area. I have no interest on how the brushes are rendered and how it is technically done I just wish that I had brushes in Xara as I have in AI.
That makes a lot of sense to me. I think Albacore makes a very good point here.
I would like a feature such as live paint in xara all else being equal, but to be honest, since I have other programs that do this well - with the addition of the proposed inkscape release, its not actually necessary - getting the bugs and the brushes, especially the brushes, sorted out in xara is a definitely a higher priority.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Albacore, I'm with you. The world doesn't stop, software is evolving, new tools are created every day. I think before Xara implements new features, old bugs should be fixed and then go from there.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
remi
On the one hand, it seems that's not possible to develop a really clever Bitmap Tracer (who would trace images the way, we are able to do by hand), but then this doesn't mean, that's not possible to develop a clever "Bitmap Tracing Assistant Tool".
To get a little off topic I've always thought it would be really cool if some drawing program provided a simple interface to some of the livewire segmentation algorithms that get used in the biomedical field. As the user draws a rough approximation of a line in an image the computer continously fits that line to a boundary in the image. This might actually make it practical to trace photographs in addition to simple line art. This video should give an idea of how it works in practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lAo9WC60MM
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Albacore
I use Live Paint tools in AI fairly fequently and like the PS style colour fill proposed by inkscape but like other people have mentioned it would be better if the fill would be vector and not bitmapped.
My understanding is that the final object is, in fact, a vector. There is just an intermediate bitmap step in order to deal with complex fills.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
... in fact, for my normal cartoon work purposes it may [sadly] cut xara out of the loop altogether, but it depends on how well it is implemented.
Before all users think, Inkscape would be already an equivalent replacement for Xara Xtreme, think twice, because sometimes it seems to me, that the Inkscape community loves to do great marketing and all people are happy, but don't looks behind the curtain. Remember: all these features of Inkscape are planned features. The slow rendering issues are "addressed", but not solved. Impressive Speed improvements are "expected", but the Cairo library is currently only used in Inkscape's outline mode and nobody knows, if the Cairo library is as fast as Xara Xtreme's one.
Personally, I'm really thankful for Carl Worth's try to break the "xaralx is non-free software" deadlock in the OpenSource project of Xara Xtreme for Linux. That was a great idea. But I also learned from the things, Carl said in the developer list, that Cairo looses most hardware acceleration because of the necessary to draw into an off-screen bitmap and Carl said clear, that this "does mean you just get cairo's (not too impressive) software doing all the rendering".
In a email from February, Carl (one of the main developer of Cairo) wrote:
"But the design goal of cairo is actually to provide sufficient
primitives for anything a 2D application might want to draw, (and in
particular if there's a possibility for graphics hardware to
accelerate it).
For gradients, it was quite obvious that linear and radial gradients
would be required since they are so common. Beyond that, what I've
always wanted to add to cairo is a single "mesh gradient" of same type
that would be sufficiently general for applications to implement any
desired gradient at all.
But, yeah, we don't have anything like that implemented yet."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nostaw
I think before Xara implements new features, old bugs should be fixed and then go from there.
I don't think so. You're right, that error fixing is important, but that's usual business for a software company.
My point with this feature request for Xara Xtreme is, that I would love to see, that Xara's developers are able to keep pace with the new features of competition products. And if there is a (really easy) way available, to develop a facility for users of vector editors, why should Xara not be able to implement this within a short time?
Remi
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
remi
Hi Miguel,
[*] A lot of users knows the tools of bitmap editors, but don't know much about vector tools. From time to time we all see questions from beginners here, who asks for a "Magic Wand Tool" within Xara Xtreme. OK, we all are able to explain the differences between bitmap editors and vector editors and why there is nothing like a "Magic Wand Tool" in a vector graphics editor. But if we think about it, we have to accept the fact, that the "bitmap way" (using a simple tool to find similar pixels and places a selection around) is more intuitive than the "vector way" (creating new shapes by hand over a imported bitmap).
Remi
Hi Remi,
I see your point regarding a pixel based selection approach:Thereīs certain things we could do if the selection worked that way (converting pixel based selections to vecor shapes and vice-versa for example). I have some ideias on how this could be useful in my daily work.
However i donīt completely agree what youi stated in the quote above. Vector programs shouldnīt work or behave like bitmap based editors even if most people are more familiar with the "bitmap way of work".
I believe most people expect to find a magic wand or an eraser on a vector program because they simply donīt understand the diference between vector and bitmap images and the advantages of each one has over the other. For a lot off people those things are in the same group: they are all images and so they should work and behave the same way.
But we know that thereīs diferences. And how to take advantage of them.
What should be done in my opinion is trying to educate and show those diferences to these people so they can understand and take advantage of the vector format. Trying to fit a pixel based workflow in a vector program to turn it more acessible to more people just donīt make much sense to me. And mixing vector and extensive bitmap capabilities in a vector program somewhat defeats the purpose of a vector format.
For example a lot of people ask for an eraser tool. Itīs makes sense in a bitmap context but whatīs the point of it in a vector application? You just simply select the shape and delete it or edit the shape until it looks like the way you want. This is far more flexible and more important offers much more control of what you are doing and remains always editable and scalable.
You canīt have this type of control in a pixel based application.
So the software should reflect and improve this type of flexibility and freedom instead of focusing in alternate ways (bitmap workflows in this case) of doing things just because they look more intuitive or natural for inexperienced people.
Besides of fixing some important bugs (boolean operations precision), i think Xara should improve the vector drawing capabilities of Xtreme, taking advantage of the amazing speed of their rendering engine. An improved vector brush tool (similar to what illustrator offers) that allows to group diferent lines with transparency to create a realistic vector brushes that follow a path (skeletal brushes) would open a lot of possibilities for diferent
types of expression and works.
An improved feather tool that allows some more control. Think of a mix of the way we actually control gradients -linear, eliptical etc- and a way to control the progressive blurring of the feather (similar to floor shadow) aplied to a shape.
Or a tiling tool -pick a group of shapes and use it to tile/fill a shape. Actually you already can do this effect using blends. However Xara will have to "compute" the blends every time you zoom in or zoom out becoming a little more slower (TIP: converting the blends to shapes will help the redraw speed but are less flexible).
Another little improvement i would love to see is snapping to "important" points in a line/shape (end, middle points of the line for example) similar to what Google Sketchup does. Sometimes i need to connect two separate lines without changing their position: i mean i need to have one end control point of one of the lines overlaping other end control point of the other line so i can join them in one line. Thereīs no way to do this actually, unless you use two guides and move both the end control points so they overlap precisely over the cross point in the guides and then move one of them slightly until the plus sign appear..uff too much trouble just to join two lines without changing or move segments or nodes in the lines.
Oops! Iīm sorry for this long and a little offtopic post...
Better stop now... :)
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
Remi
Iin fact, for my normal cartoon work purposes it may [sadly] cut xara out of the loop altogether, but it depends on how well it is implemented.
Yes but only for cartooning - which in my case means handrawn [:rolleyes: ] and scanned - and then simply needing to be colored/lettered/madeup/tweaked
And similar such scan based work.
Not for from scratch vector drawing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
I would like a feature such as live paint in xara all else being equal, but to be honest, since I have other programs that do this well
Specifically Toon Boom studio. This is a cartoon animators tool and too expensive to buy simply to color static cartoons, but it does that job very well.
it vector fills - it closes gaps even large ones automatically without needing to draw lines [resists temptation to ask for this in xara :eek: ] - it allows independent control of individual color transparency within object - I could go on, but.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
remi
Before all users think, Inkscape would be already an equivalent replacement for Xara Xtreme,
Remi - I take your point
actually I rarely if ever think in terms of one program replacing another full stop [ridiculous idea, and a hostage to fortune] - I think in terms of maybe one program replacing another for a specific/project task[s].
Heck I've gone on a bit too - just one last thing - please please please xara get the brushes sorted out... :D
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
People,
I use Xara a lot and love it. About a week ago I wanted to fill in the squareish shapes created when you draw a series of roughly horizontal lines and then draw a series of roughly vertical ones across them. The sort of thing that results in a quilt pattern or a chess board. Now I had not had occasion to use Xaras combine and slice functions much in the past and I found it very confusing and indeed at times a PITB. Nevertheless after persevering and some help from past forum threads I got what I wanted.
It took a lot of time though and I did think that it would be nice to have a fill control that worked with vector lines in a more intuitive manner, much as do the fill operations in raster programs. Sweet dreams I thought.
The present thread is talking about just such a thing but people seem a bit confused on the raster/vector situation. And since I follow the Inkscape forum as well as use Inkscape I thought I could just clarify a little bit with respect to fill operation.
1. Inkscape is a vector based program.
2. Its fill function works on vector lines. Ie. If you draw a square with four crossing vector lines you simply go into the square and flood fill it with colour. Similarly with more complex drawings. Just fill each section. It is so simple that I am blown away by it.
3. Its fill function also works on imported raster files. For example I just pulled in a photograph of a railway station and zoomed in on a section of sky between some struts and filled it with yellow.
This is not something Inkscape might do in version 0.46, it is here and now in the current nightly builds. I just brought down the Win version from 4th April and it worked. The 0.45 versions that people have mentioned are the current stable versions and are out of date in respect of fill.
I do not have time to work up some examples at present, and in any case I want to explore the limits of the controls, but will try and do so next week if someone does not beat me to it.
Erik
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3 Attachment(s)
Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
People,
I found some time to do a bit more fiddling with Inkscapes paint bucket fill function and am attaching three scans.
One is a straight bit of vector filling on some crossed lines. It is very easy to do this.
The second is a bit of filling in of two petals on a Waratah flower. This is only about the third time I have tried my hand at a raster type fill and clearly it takes a bit of practice on something which is all very similarly coloured.
The third is a bit of filling done on a scanned hand drawn map. The almost closed shapes are the easiest to fill. The unclosed shapes can be filled after drawing a vector line and then removing it. The scanned lines were the hardest because they are almost single pixels and take a bit of fiddling with threshold values. In practice straight lines are more easily hand traced anyway.
But on the whole this fill is going to be very useful after I have mastered it.
Erik
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EJ
1. Inkscape is a vector based program.
2. Its fill function works on vector lines. Ie. If you draw a square with four crossing vector lines you simply go into the square and flood fill it with colour. Similarly with more complex drawings. Just fill each section. It is so simple that I am blown away by it.
Are you kidding? That sounds amazing! How do you like the handling of this? I'm downloading Inkscape right now.
EDIT: I can't find the paint bucket tool in version 0.45.1 (built MAR 21 2007), or does it need to have GIMP preinstalled?
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
I think if I read Erik right it is only in the nightly build [developer] version.
0.45.1 is the latest stable version.
I'm going to try this myself now, it does look very nice, and if it is that good, it will be at least if not more than I was hoping for.
Nightly build can be a pain because of instability but heck this looks too good to miss.
PS - if youre on windows like me you have to compile your own package as I recall - have refresh memory on that one
EDIT - no need to complile - inkscape providing zipped builds in 7z format - memory playing me up or longer than I though since I ran nightly?:D
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Inkscape0704040630.7z unzipped without a hitch using the 7z442 utility
I can apply graduated color to my pencilled lines without the need to vector! :D :D
I'm going to have to get to grips with this asap.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Good news about Inkscape.
Now I'm waiting for a statement of Phil, Gerry, Neil or Charles.
Remi
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Remi, don't get your hopes up. I'm sure they alread read your suggestion. It doesn't mean they reply. I'm still waiting for an official respond for my line2shape convert problem posted 10 months ago.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
initial impressions of the inkscape 0.46
it does the vector-fill well - I'll try and get some examples up - bit hampered at the moment because 0.46 is refusing to reopen saved svg files on my system - thats nightly builds for you - I can open them in 0.45.1 though, so should be workable for now give or take.
one or two other irritations as I expected, nothing major.
I remain impressed so far...
EDIT: the pdf import to xara from 0.46 is not too bad now I've the hang of it - though it tends to come in upside-down and its not so far been editable in xara :(
Importing via 0.45-1 has issues with the graduations as it happens.....:rolleyes:
ah well early days yet. :)
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Sorry about the mishmash in the last post but I'm quite excited about this - it should make a major chunk of my work a whole load simpler.
In a nutshell what I found so far is:
what worked before in 0.45 and imported into xara via pdf, still seems to work but needs to taken via 0.45-1, otherwise it tends to go wrong at this stage of 0.46 development.
So graduated paths ok.
the new graduated fills however don't seem to import into xara properly at the moment.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Can get the graduated fills into xarapro as long as they are graduated color2color and not color2alpha - this was always the case with inkscape pdf to xarapro as I recall - and best if the underlying bitmap is stripped out first in 0.45-1, otherwise the pdf is a tad on the large side and can take forever to load.
So its good to know that, as things stand now at least, the essentials can be done if required.
I'm not overtly partisan one way or the other, so if inkscape will do this 'livepaint' then I can live without xara doing it - its not going to draw me away from xara for mainstream vector drawing.
I therefore stick by what I said in previous posts - I think it would be a great feature for xara to have, and a good selling point, at least for the likes of me who work as much if not more in bitmap as vector.
However xara is a vector drawing program so addressing the issues there, and especially 'proper' vector brushes remains my priority for now.
But who knows how things will develop.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EJ
The unclosed shapes can be filled after drawing a vector line and then removing it.
Erik
You can put all these on their own layer above it still appears works - then delete them all in one go
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
EJ's example and Handrawn's is the essence for such a tool.
SOME BACKGROUND INFO:
When CorelDRAW first came out with their SmartFill tool I was very happy. I immediately saw where it would be great help when importing certain vector based artwork. In particular DXF files where many times line-work are not fillable/enclosed objects but a series of touching but "unjoined" segments. What a time saver. HOWEVER, there were some areas of overlapping line-work that could not be filled.
So I posted my example where I was having difficulties to a Corel forum, requesting the SmartFill tool be tweeked a bit or perhaps a VBA script be written that could account for tighter tolerances and other conditions. I got a reply from Alex Vakulenko, software engineer and head of Corel's scripting group and operator of http://www.oberonplace.com/. To make a long story short, Alex said that SmartFill tool code took a very large amount of effort to develop .... particularly the aspect of it analysing mathematically the paths of vectors/bezier paths/segments and determining their exact intersection points. Also, the source application of the imported line work can be issue because of how they describe their nodes, control handles, etc., and then how well the import filters can translate into Corel terms.
Alex is no slouch. So I take his word that this is no simple task and thus it would require a concerted effort for the Xara team to come up with something similar ... but in true Xara tradition much better.
I definitely would like such a tool in XaraPro's arsenal, but I am not holding my breath.
Regards, John
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jclements
Alex is no slouch. So I take his word that this is no simple task and thus it would require a concerted effort for the Xara team to come up with something similar ... but in true Xara tradition much better.
Yes, it's not so easy. But if you follows Inkscape's great approach, then it's really not so complicated:
- Render the current drawing into a bitmap (for the user invisible).
- Use already well known graphic algorithms to recognize the boundaries (for the user invisible).
- Insert the calculated vector shape in the drawing.
- Finished.
Remi
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
I asked for this last year (amongst other things), but was told, by Charles Moir, not to expect it anytime soon.
I was given a work-a-round, by forum regulars, that will create vector shapes inbetween lines and fill enclosed spaces, but compared to flood fill this is long-winded and can be fiddly
That is; to select all lines, convert to shapes, put a vector shape behind the lines (a rectangle filling the canvas) and subtract the lines from the shape, -presto vector shapes that fill the spaces.But because of the inaccuracies when Xtreme cuts or subtracts shapes there are sometimes little 'gaps', between the shapes and lines, that must be manually adjusted.
In some cases it is possible to 'trap' the interior vector shapes, behind the lines, by expanding them one or two pixels (using the contour tool), but again time and effort make other programmes solutions to this much more attractive.
Having said that, an actions function would make such work-a-rounds much simpler, in many cases just a single click, but when I suggested this it didn't meet with much positive response either.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MarkMyWords
Having said that, an actions function would make such work-a-rounds much simpler, in many cases just a single click, but when I suggested this it didn't meet with much positive response either.
But there was positive response. The only problem is, that you'll find too often users, who are concerned about their own wish list and also concerned about Xara's developers. The other problem is, that most of the users like "their" Xara Xtreme so much, that they don't like to hear criticisms. Finally, it's really sensational, how many people are in love with this software. And we are a part of them. :)
Remi
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
remi
The other problem is, that most of the users like "their" Xara Xtreme so much, that they don't like to hear criticisms. Finally, it's really sensational, how many people are in love with this software. And we are a part of them. :)
Remi
True! Iīm sure Xara loves that kind of problematic users :)
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
There are some small 'faults' or inaccuracies in Xtreme that should be addressed, but I think that apart from that, it has pure vector art pretty much covered.
For future versions, I think greater attention should to be given to the needs of those who use bitmap programmes. If Xtreme is to expand it needs to pay attention to this market, which is after all the biggest sector of computer graphics, by far.
Xtreme could so easily, bring in many 'bitmap artists'. I do most of my illustration in Photoshop, but would love to move entirely to Xtreme.
I'm not talking about a fundamental change in the programme, merely an 'adjustment' in the thinking.
Some quite simple additions of functionality could make the move from bitmap to vector an easy step.
With all the workarounds I have seen, that can emulate the way some bitmap tools work, an actions palette would go a long way toward this.
I can, with work arounds, emulate a fill tool, some masking techniques, even natural media effects, but such operations can be complex and time consuming, so it is much easier to use a bitmap programme.
And what's with the airbrush? It is so close to being useful for painting, but not quite there that it's painful. At least allow it to use the current colour and not keep going back to bloody purple LOL!
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Can I with draw my statements from the start of this thread, just used this yesterday and found it great in Illy CS3. The ability to change the fill of the whole drawing to 2 colours or to greyscale or what ever you like is quite a utility is something else if that is the proposal here.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
I'm not looking to turn Xara into a massively bloated pseudo bitmap programme. I love it for all the same reasons others do, but I know damn well bitmap programmes do some things better.
Xara actually comes very close to emulating some of these functions, but not quite. So close in fact that I seriously believe that with a little 'out of the box' thinking, Xara could make bitmap 'painting' almost obsolete.
We have all seen some of the amazing 'paintings' created with Xtreme and all in vectors. As a bitmap based illustrator I would love to be able to move entirely to vector art, specifically to Xtreme, but no matter how vector enthusiasts cut it , bitmap programmes have some better functions.
Xtreme is easy and intuitve to use, until you try to 'fill' spaces, 'airbrush' within a masked area, erase or create complex and natural brushes. Are these things beyond a vector programme?
Anyone must see the advantages of a vector fill tool. Especially those who are cartoonists or create lots of line drawings.
What is masking, but a sort of 'live' clipview?
An 'eraser' is just another (more efficient) way of slicing/cutting a shape or stroke.
The only 'major' work I think, should be to Xaras brush engine. It stamps images down and allows variations within a single stroke, which is all fine and dandy, but the option to allow variation between strokes would add a whole lot. For painting textures; fur, grass, grunge, etc. or emulating natural media. And the option to 'stretch' a single image/brush along a stroke, instead of just stamping it, would be great.
Oh yes, and can I have an actions palette please Santa.
Of course even if I got all my wishes granted, I would still want more LOL!
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
The art is, to implement these functions in such a way that they offers the upsetting advantages of a vector graphic: editable and scalable all the time.
I'm not sure, which software company is able to go the next step into this direction.
Remi
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MarkMyWords
We have all seen some of the amazing 'paintings' created with Xtreme and all in vectors. As a bitmap based illustrator I would love to be able to move entirely to vector art, specifically to Xtreme, but no matter how vector enthusiasts cut it , bitmap programmes have some better functions.
Xtreme is easy and intuitve to use, until you try to 'fill' spaces, 'airbrush' within a masked area, erase or create complex and natural brushes. Are these things beyond a vector programme?
Anyone must see the advantages of a vector fill tool. Especially those who are cartoonists or create lots of line drawings.
Oh YES! YES! YES!
Give me but these 2 things:
a 'magic' eraser to erase within boundaries and a means to fill spaces within boundaries -
and I could as good as throw photoshop in the bin.
Sort the brushes - ditto painter
ah is it that long to Christmas :D
EDIT - oh I almost forgot - being able to select a named color value within a bitmap - that would be really nice too [sigh]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
remi
The art is, to implement these functions in such a way that they offers the upsetting advantages of a vector graphic: editable and scalable all the time.
I'm not sure, which software company is able to go the next step into this direction.
Remi
Remi
yes indeed.
I was reminded elsewhere that psp9[jasc] is very good at editable/scalable/zoomable.
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
I was reminded elsewhere that psp9[jasc] is very good at editable/scalable/zoomable.
I don't know PSP in detail, but the problem is, that Jasc was bought up from Corel (in 2004) and you know Corel...
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Re: Feature Request: LivePaint / Paint Bucket tool
I've just been looking at the latest Beta of Microsoft Expression, Blimey!
They have done a lot of work on it since I last checked it out, the interface has been completely redesigned, very slick, and the functions simplified and presented in a far more straight-forward way.
They are now including bitmap or vector elements in brushes (before it was all bitmap) and you can make a mask from any object (vector or bitmap), gradient fills and transparency, real time updates for tools and functions. This looks a damn sight better than the last edition.
I might try out the demo, if I can make time. Even so, I wasn't impressed with Expressions workflow last time I tried it and that is unlikely to have changed significantly, but we can live in hope.
I still think Xtreme could wipe the floor with Expression, - with a little work.