How do I hold the integrity of CMYK colors in and out of XXP?

I'm fairly new to CMYK and I'm in stuck in quicksand! I set out to take 5 prescribed CMYK colors and develop a full CMYK color palette around them. But I can't even get started because I can't bring colors in and out of XXP intact:

1. I started with two tiffs in Photoshop which contain the 5 given colors and used the PS color picker to derive the CMYK formulas. (The desired formulas are noted on the attached image.)

2. When I imported those tiffs into XXP, the XXP color picker gave me completely different formulas. Nevertheless, I created 5 squares and filled theme with the original formulas which I had first entered into the Color Gallery.

3. I then sought to confirm the formulas with the XXP color picker: the results were completely different formulas -- close in some cases, but not that close.

4. I then exported my XXP file to a new tiff and opened it in PS. The PS color picker then found a new, third set of formula.

I'm clueless what is going on and what to do about it. I've been reading everything I can find about CMYK but nothing is shedding any light.

I'm attaching the xar file -- apparently the board won't accept a tiff but here's a download url if that's of any help: http://www.mediafire.com/?fz3nn2myznj

Much as I love XX, both old and new versions (since CorelXara 1.1 in 1995), I've repeatedly found so many problems with all-pure-CMYK work in XX that I've totally dropped it. For years, I've only done RGB work in XX. It would be damn nice if the XX Pro version had fixed all CMYK issues -- but a few tests a couple of weeks ago showed me that also XX Pro is still "hightly problematic" for CMYK work. I keep recommending XX to others -- and I keep warning them to avoid CMYK and stay in RGB.

This is because Xara Still didnt suport embeded CMYK bitmap images.
When you try to import CMYK bitmap, Xtreme automaticaly reconvert it in RGB.
For that your imported bitmaps look around original, but not exactly the same.
When you try to measure with color picker, actualy you measure their RGB monitor values, not given in CMYK color space.

If you plan to work in CMYK space for export outside from Xara, I reccomend you to get CMYK template from Xara Xone and work only in CMYK space with print preview turned on.
I checked your file, in your color palette you have CMYK, RGB, HSV colors which may cause problem if you use them in your vector works and after final export to Illustrator, CDR or somewhere else. Illustrator for example didnt suport more than one color system in file and will auto-covert your colors different from CMYK for example and this will change your intention.
Xara export to CMYK Tif is briliant, sometimes problem with color difference come from that Xara still havent ICC monitor calibration and in some cases (like darker colors) showed with print preview colors look different from their real look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klaus Nordby

...and I keep warning them to avoid CMYK and stay in RGB

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I use Xara CMYK from CorelXara 1.5 and never has problems with it. Many times I give here tips and tricks about how to create things and to haven't problems outside from Xara
Yes the way from pure design to finall pre-pressed and ready for print file going on a litlle bit longer, but for me no other software that can give me this freedom of creation.
I know perfect and Corel and Illustrator.... but for me they are maybe 4-5 times slow than Xara
And I have one word for print designers... by software you can recognize them

What a good answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by minimiro

I checked your file, in your color palette you have CMYK, RGB, HSV colors which may cause problem if you use them in your vector works and after final export to Illustrator, CDR or somewhere else.

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How can I check this myself? Other than the bitmaps, everything I created in XXP was CMYK -- as far I as knew. I've had the CMYK color model locked on in the Color Editor since I started this very frustrating process.

F9
choose color
edit buton

Did you try going to www.xaraxone.com and checking out Minimero's free CMYK template you can download. I am not sure I fully understand why/how it works, but give it a try. If it works then use it.


Minimero, could you post some artwork you've done using your palette?

Minimiro and other cmyk veterans,
I loaded the cmyk template, set the Printer Colors to Simulate Print Colors.

I created a box, filled it with one of the cmyk colors (72-0-72-0). I then used the Color Picker to test and got 80-0-70-0. There is a noticeable difference in the two colors.

Then I exported to a pdf and used the Xara Color Picker which then read the exported color as 80-14-31-0. Then I used the Photoshop Color Picker, and to my great surprise, I'm back to 72-0-72-0. Should I worry? Is the Xara Color Picker garbage or non-cmyk?

Is cmyk really this unstable? A more experienced graphic designer told me to pick cmyk colors from a Pantone book, develop a cmyk palette from those colors, do all my work in cmyk even if they look a bit off on screen -- in the end, the printer should end up with the original colors. Would you concur with this advice?

Yes I have had the same from a printer but it is not as easy as that for the more spot colours the higher the cost. If you art work is a straight background and simple foreground colours maybe but I don't have the discipline to work that way and I cant afford the full range of Pantone colour swatch books, I have only one and its very basic. Many people use PS as the final colour correction myself I got a fair idea the difficult colours to use like red to purple and the changes are not that vast you have to think slightly brighter and of course use the template. If your print run is under 2000 SRA 3 sheets have you priced just using a comericial laser it can work out about the same and you dont have to worry about the plates or anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davelash

I created a box, filled it with one of the cmyk colors (72-0-72-0). I then used the Color Picker to test and got 80-0-70-0. There is a noticeable difference in the two colors.

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When you try to measure with color picker in Xara, actualy you measure color RGB monitor values, not given in CMYK color space.

Eye dropper didnt get your actual values, he get RGB values rendered on screen

the problem I have is the colour shift from XARA cmyk to PS CMYK. How can you keep the same colour in both programs. The colours change in CS2 when exported from XARA. Is it something to do with the black point setting in PS or the CMYK profile not the same as XARA pro. Or is it maybe my monitor. Here is a sample. All have the same colour percentages..thanks taojones

I work on hardware calibrated monitor iiyama MM904UT Vision master PRO - calibrated with gretac macbeth eye one pro device.

This difference that you see come from difference from Xara print preview and icc monitor calibration in photoshop. Xara's preview is based on some generic monitor profile I think, photoshop used concrete icc for concrete monitor, concrete type RGB and some custom CMYK icc....
Here on my monitor, photoshop colors are one idea cold and darker than xara

Till Xara lead in icc suport and monitor calibration I dont think that you can see same color here and there
By me, photoshop CMYK preview is much more accurate
For this reason, after export from xara I always preffer to make a litlle tune-ups in colors in Photoshop

Survival Tips for Xara CMYK:
1. Enter all CMYK colors into Xara by formula only; never use the the Xara Color Picker or eyeball a color match as both methods rely on RGB and not CMYK.

2. If you need to match bitmap colors, do so in Photoshop or other program first, then bring the formulas into Xara via the Color Gallery.

3. Be careful with shadows, gradients, and transparency: Xara will convert your CMYK color back to RGB (see Xara Help under CMYK).

4. Set your monitor to Simulate Print Colors via Windows > Show Printer Colors

Discussion
This thread has been tremendously helpful. Minimiro is obviously a high priest of XaraCMYK; may he profit accordingly! Thank you for your help.

My original error was twofold: 1) trusting that the Xara Color Picker was working in CMYK space, and 2) importing bitmaps into XXP and using the CMYK sliders to "match" the colors. As replies in this thread seem to make clear, in both cases I was unknowingly working in RGB and not CMYK despite the Color Editor giving me that impression. The compounding color errors I was experiencing were primarily RGB/CMYK translation problems.

As a test of the survival tips above, I exported 5 test colors from Xara via pdf and eps. I opened each in Photoshop and used the PS color picker to check the CMYK colors: all 5 colors transported perfectly via pdf; one of the eps colors was perfect, the other 4 were 1 or 2 digits off, i.e. a '24' might be a '23': still very acceptable.

Obviously, there's still much more to learn, but I feel much more confident now that I can 1) create a CMYK palette (outside of Xara), 2) duplicate that palette into Xara Color Gallery via formulas, 3) work in Xara CYMK space as long as I don't rely on the Color Picker or visual color matching, and 4) export CMYK art reliably from Xara via pdf or eps.

I am not sure how much mischief shadows, gradients, and transparency will do in the process...To Be Continued

thanks Minimiro your input helps heaps..tj

I seem to spent too much of my life tweaking Xara Xported CMYK colours in Photoshop. I hoped to do less of this in Pro but alas......

I can't emphasise how important it is for an illustrator be able to see the colours he is going to export!

it seems Squeaky from the tests I have done that PDF is the best way to export CMYK I get the same colours in Xara and PS this way..tao

yes CMYK tweak used some time, but what you say about CMYK + 1-2Pantones ;)
Like todays work.. CMYK + one pantone metalik with light effects used
or like yesterday's work - CMYK+3 pantones
The true is to downsample your designs. Some of prepress things in Xara must be created by hand.

Exampe from today:
some simple design for work-calendar, there was no problems untill client say I want this, this and this element to be printed in gold.... ok for pure vector elements there was no problems, but in one element (where I simulate gold 2007 with bleaches, dark shadows, blurred elements etc etc) I will have big problems, much bigger problem come from one line let say, which was under this 2007 and its shadow and which line client obligatory want to be in gold....
Houston we have a problem... :o
Here help come from PSD export (but PSD still can t export in CMYK :( )
I divide design on layers, one for background - also exported and like CMYK EPS to photoshop, one for Pantone elements including white bleaches from 2007, one for vector elements which was exported like CMX for future use in final work in CDR, one for image of hotel, and over all this one layer for 2007 lighting elements - shadows, bleaches etc.
PSD is opened in photoshop and converted to CMYK
new background with absolutly exact values for CMYK was placed from previous exported like CMYK EPS background, maked some tweaks in layer with hotel photo, after that I select layer with elements that must be in gold, then created new spot channel and placed it, with the same sellection I make breaks in all other CMYK layers and elements, 'cose by deffault pantone channel is overprinted. after that layer with 2007 lighting effects come to its right place over gold and voila left only to apply shadow to layer (which shadow looks like shadow and for pantone also) and delicate part of this prepress was finished
after all this, PSD was flaten, and saved with SPOT channel data
After that imported in Corel X3, combined with ther vector ellements previously exported like CMX and WTF... we are ready :)
I think that many people will find much more intricate way to decide problems like this, instead of to think a litlle, and with few actions to finish work

I hope you understand me with my bad english

Best regards
minimiro

I sort of get what you are saying..there is always a work around. Looks like a good calendar.
Minimiro how do you save PDFs from Xara to open in coreldraw x3. I always get this file is corrupted. They open in CS2..thanks tao

using old good way

PDF 1.3
color model - CMYK
view PDF when finished

bitmap compresion - none
convert text to shapes
exclude invisble layers
do not generate reader layers
custom icc profile - photoshop 5 def

this work fine

if you use transp, shadows, bevels etc - my suggestion is first to convert them to bitmap (without print preview turned on when converting)
and then export to PDF

You Are A Master!..ta

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao jones

it seems Squeaky from the tests I have done that PDF is the best way to export CMYK I get the same colours in Xara and PS this way..tao

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I hadn't thought of that. I'll give it a go.
My clients usually want photoshop files (When I work as an illustrator) So I don't have to go anywhere near Printers and all that press ready stuff. - lucky me :-)

I got all excited about the PSD output with layers until I discovered that it completely ignores any printer preview so I get more colour slippage than using good old pngs. X@xxZkk&%@!!!!!!!!