Printable View
Hi, I have the following file that has text, transparency, shadow and gradation in it with CMYK swatches. Can we try the following program to see if they all or some come out good.
Export from xtreme using pdf
then import to following if you have the programs
Illustrator CS1
Quark 6
Indesign CS1
I would love to see how it works for you, even screen shots of it in those programs would be great.
Not that this helps your cause, but thought others with Paint Shop Pro, capable of importing PDF, that your XAR file exported as PDF worked without a hitch importing into PSP version 9.
Not illustrator but opened PDF in Serif PagePlus and Serif DrawPlus where it opened with no problem and identical to look at, YOUR CMYK VALUES REPRODUCED EXACTLY. All fully editable of course.
Not sure what it proves though.
Can't see the point of this behzad, but did it any way. You do know that in InDesign CS 1 you can only place a PDF file and really its only a high quality bitmap. Sampled colours in both AI CS1 and InDesign and all the colours matched or at least rounded to the nearest full number which you would expect and everything else looked reasonablely correct and because InDesign recognises it was developed through RGB palette gives that pallette numbers but they are correct.
[QUOTE=Albacore;168316]Can't see the point of this behzad,
The point of this is to see which program it is most compatible with. Indesign cs1 looks like this. As you said albacore things look okay, but big difference in cmyk values, why? Because pdf export in xara xtreme outputs pdf as RGB and not CMYK values.
[QUOTE=behzad;168322]It /may/ be because Indesign converts them to RGB on import. Try generating a PDF with C, M, and Y full, but no K, and use ghostview or similar to view the individual plates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Albacore
Alex
Thanks Remi, The post was not created by me but I did participate in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by remi
Actually, the only thing it proves is that the image was exported without an ICC profile for portability. There are ICC profilers available some free, some good, some not so good.
Of course, it doesn't allow for the fact that most graphic programs will import screen resolution images and their respective images in RGB and not CMYK.
You're gonna need some serious Pantone processing equipment if you want to calibrate colors precisely from one program to another. Personally, I don't feel like paying $12K per license.
CMYK has to do with Printer's INK. It can be exported with profiles out for a job just fine. However, without a profiler like ICC or some Pantone comparisons, you won't be able to prove anything in a screen resolution environment.
And here's another tidbit for you;
Never try to match colors in a real world store where they have fluorescent lighting. Why? Because the frequency of the light will throw off refractive/reflective values of your colors way out of kilter.
Yes, you're right. I read the name wrong. Sorry... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by behzad
Thank you guys, I guess I just wanted to assure myself that it would be easy to export and match everything perfectly.
Illustrator cs1 was bang on, cmyk colors to the point, everything else looked great. I used open to open the file in illustrator and it asked what color profile, i choose cmyk and it worked fine.
:)
Here's one more for you to investigate.
I can't get the pdf output even remotely similar to what I see on screen, so if you can export it to pdf, open it in Illustrator or something it would be nice.
I've tried both Acrobat Elements and Xara's own pdf export, but the background red is way off.
cheers,
Jon
They look the same to me. Do you have a gamma tool for your monitor? Maybe you need to calibrate your monitor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon G
If you are using a LCD monitor this might be even more important.
I use my monitor for the color setting of
RGB adobe 1998
CMYK US sheetfed coated v2
this is the profile for all my adobe products
I wish it would be so easy - my monitor is calibrated, and quite recently. What did you check the pdf with?Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesmc
Anyway monitor calibration shouldn't affect this at all, maybe Adobe Reader just can't display CMYK colours properly? The problem is that neither Xara's Show printer colours or normal RGB view is even close to the color I get in the pdf.
:confused:
(Obviously lack of skills is the main culprit here :-( )
I dont have the fonts, so everything looks crazy, can you send me the fond please? Also pdf makes all cmyk and rgb colors look duller. Also try to get the values of both cmyk and compare them, sometimes what you see on your screen is different than the actual values within the files, color was that is.
The font TW Cen Mt, probably came with Xara, OpenOffice or XP as I have no fontpacks on this machine.
I compared color values in the .xar and .pdf and they are different, but I'm really not sure if Reader displays them correctly.
Jon,
I can confirm the colour diffence. The background Burgundy in PDF is very much paler and washed out.
Is this not the "Xtreme is not showing printer colours" problem? IE Xtreme is not showing a colour corrected image on screen whereas Acrobat is. I can't remember whether Xtreme has "show print colours" or whether that's just on Xara X.Quote:
Originally Posted by Egg Bramhill
Alex
I would not go about judging my colors on screen. A good monitor "I like viewsonic" and the color settings i talked about before does the trick for me. Also pick one printer and work with them, have pantone and cmyk swatch booklets and thats about it. Oh if your printer the one next to your computer prints close to what is on screen helps too for showing clients.
The rest is all gamble.
Because you said "viewing" the screen. I didn't detect any significant difference "viewing the screen."Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon G
Your not going to get very far comparing colors in a screen environment without a color profiler. Certainly not comparing colors with different programs because most programs are not set up to handle calibrated color profiles.
CMYK has to do with ink. That's ink, the wet stuff, the stuff that goes on paper. Without an ICC compliant importer and exporter you won't know what you have. It would be all guess work.
And because CMYK has to do with ink, you can get varied results from the type of paper it is printed on to the the lighting you are viewing the image.
However, if the color profile is sampled by the printer from a solid color profile generated by an ICC program export, that's as close as your going to get.
Guessing what is on the screen without color profiler is a waste of time you can't do it.
About as close as we can come to true colors is in a certified physical chemistry laboratory with sensitve colorimeters and spectrographometers. Of course you won't get color values like CMYK, RGB, maroon or whatever. What you will get is frequency values and all sorts of scientific clip clop on how light affects the thing we perceive as color.
I suddenly have an urge for neopolitan ice cream and the wearing of hip boots. Good luck on this PDF thing. :)
Alex,Quote:
Originally Posted by abligh
Xtreme does have a 'Show printer colours' feature but this value isn't even close to the pdf.
This is a bit of an on going item that was started by Jon. LINK. He posted the file with the same background burgundy colour but it also had horizontal bars with linear fills from white to the same burgundy as the background colour. At first it looked like the linear fills were incorrect in the final pdf. After a bit of head scratching it was discovered the burgundy in the linear fill was correct but the background wasn't. Why was the linear fill's burgundy correct in the pdf but not the background rectangle?
I would return to the tried and tested method of exporting as a TIFF and sending that to the printers or giving him the spot colour for the background. Caan I ask a stupid question Jon why 2 backgrounds?
Thanks everyone for participating, it would surely be nice to solve this.
I sent the file as tiffs yesterday so jobwise this is not so urgent, just a curious problem. I would love to use always the same printer, but sadly clients have their own contracts. Yes maybe I should buy a colour swatch, I have one for newspaper prints as they are the only ones I've had issues with so far.
jamesmc, I am aware of the dangers of making comparisons on monitor screen, but do you really think this difference between Xara and final pdf is caused by lack of colour profiling?
Is red a special colour in CMYK world? I'm sure I've never experienced this big a difference between Xara and pdf.
- can I trust Adobe Reader (is the colour same in Illustrator?)
"2" backgrounds because I haven't figured out how to get Acrobat Elements to print the document background. And Xara print options only have "Visible foreground layers" and "All foreground layers". Anyway it has no effect on the end colour, tried with Xara's own pdf export.
(This red is btw ugly as hell in my opinion but that is what they wanted :p )
Jon
This is the explanation from Xara Xtreme's Help:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon G
"Foreground and Background Layers
There are two types of layer - Foreground and Background. Background layers always sit behind the foreground layers. Background layers never print so are ideal for pictures you want to copy or backgrounds you only want visible on the screen."
Regards,
Remi
I'm not sure if I've fully caught up or understood the problem. But the following look like useful tips (some posted here, some not)Quote:
Originally Posted by Egg Bramhill
* If your image has colours specified in CMYK, it needs to be converted to RGB to display. If the RGB conversion is not the same on two apps, it will look different on screen.
* RGB values can also look different in screen between two apps, when one or both of them are adjusting for printer colours. Essentially they are converting to CMYK and back again (slightly more complicated than that as the monitor profile plays a part too), but if the profiles are different, you will see differences.
* Gradfills (other than between 2 CMYK colours I think) and transparency are carried out in RGB space. That means that if you see a gradfill or transparent area which perfectly matches the background on the monitor (when not showing print colours), it may NOT match the background on export. That's because the gradfill or transparent-covered area will be specified in RGB space, and the surrounding colours in CMYK space. So you can think of this as an RGB colour and a CYMK colour that match using Xtreme's conversion, but won't match using another party's conversion. This seems to me to be a likely problem in this case. You would need to export the entire thing in ONE colour space (either CMYK or RGB). I don't think Xtreme has the option to do this in CMYK space (you really want a PDF with CMYK bitmaps in, not RGB ones, which I think requires Xara X). You can fix this a number of ways, including working entirely in RGB space (or HSV which is the same for these purposes), and printing the whole thing as an RGB bitmap to a PDF printer driver (rather than doing an export), printing to Postscript, overlaying the area concerned with a 1% transparent feathered shape in roughly the same colour as the background OR (going the other way) exporting the whole thing as a CMYK TIFF (which I think Xtreme can do).
* Background layers don't print
* There is an interesting "feature" with gradfills (I think this applies to PS only). They appear to be banded on screen (e.g. in ghostview and if converted to a PDF), but don't print banded on non-contone (i.e. screened) printer devices. This is because Xtreme (arguably) calculates the banding wrong for contoned output devices.
Alex
Yes! Thanks for the clarifying answer - I think this is the answer to the gradient problem:
"You would need to export the entire thing in ONE colour space (either CMYK or RGB). I don't think Xtreme has the option to do this in CMYK space (you really want a PDF with CMYK bitmaps in, not RGB ones, which I think requires Xara X). You can fix this a number of ways, including working entirely in RGB space (or HSV which is the same for these purposes), and printing the whole thing as an RGB bitmap to a PDF printer driver (rather than doing an export)"
...and also to the issue that I've previously had great results printing with Acrobat and letting it handle the CMYK colours. I checked, and I've this far only used RGB colours. Only flipped to "Show printer colours" to adjust them, but never hassled with CMYK model. Hardly the orthodox method, but I will stick to that instead of messing with CMYK values in Xara - it seems that is the reason for the colour difference, RGB->CMYK seems better handled by Acrobat than CMYK-CMYK.
I saw the print proofs some hours ago and they were ok, got the red they wanted and no visible softness from using tiff (600dpi). Next time I'll use pdf for easier handling - opening huge tiffs is slow and Acrobat Elements accepts downloadable print job specs for best results.
Thanks everybody.
Jon
I think, there is a little bit confusion about this mismatching colors, but this is a well known bug in Adobe Reader.
Perhaps Adobe would say, this is a feature, but Adobe Reader switches into CMYK mode and doesn't convert the CMYK colors to your RGB screen. Instead, Adobe Reader applies a default color management profile to your PDF file when displaying. This profile makes CMYK colors look darker.
A simple test:
- Create a rectangle in Xara Xtreme.
- Choose the CMYK color model in Xtreme's color editor.
- Set the following CMYK fill color C 20,4%, M 96,5%, Y 72,2%, K 18%
- Export your drawing in a PDF file.
- Open your PDF file with Adobe Illustrator. The colors in Adobe Illustrator are correct (C 20,39%, M 96,47%, Y 72,16%, K 18,04%).
- Create a new drawing in Adobe Illustrator with a rectangle and the same colors.
- Export the Adobe Illustrator drawing in a PDF file.
- Open both PDF files with Adobe Reader: The colors doesn't match the colors from Adobe Illustrator or Xara Xtreme, but both colors are the same (wrong) colors.
You'll find the PDF files in the attachment.
also important: Adobe Reader doesn't convert CMYK colors to RGB colors, if you print the file with your desktop (RGB) printer.
Regards,
Remi
Alex / Remi,
Thanks for these insights. I'm only glad I never have to do any printing!
This would explain the difference between the horizontal grad. fills & the background colour and why changing the background flat fill to a false graduated fill appeared on screen to resolve the problem.Quote:
* Gradfills (other than between 2 CMYK colours I think) and transparency are carried out in RGB space.
Isn't the difference due to the screen only dispaying in RGB;the conversion from the CMYK image to the screen dispay will inevitably lose something in the conversion.Quote:
Originally Posted by remi
Harry
Yes, you're right, but in this example the difference between Xara Xtreme or Adobe Illustrator preview and the Adobe Reader preview is huge and that's only the problem of Adobe Reader and not Xara Xtreme or Adobe Illustrator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry W.
Remi
With this tool I can check...but just did a visual...sample taken where tiny red dot is (the drakerblue for the quote.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon G