4mg graphic size?

I am the novice visitor, back to ask strange questions. Hey, it's what I do.

I made something in Painter Classic that I liked, printed it out, then program quit unexpectedly. So, I scanned the picture back in. Took forever. Opened it in Photoshop. Took forever and another hour. Sent it to someone via email who said she went to the store because the download of attachment was taking so long. It never opened. I saw that the file size was 4 megs but it's only a 5x7. I downloaded it into Painter and it was huge with an attitude. And, of course, took forever to download. Mac 266 with 160 RAM running on OS9. Any insights will result in my cyberkissing your feet.

I wanted to download pic into a post but confess I don't know how to convert to HTML or even how to download it.

Queen of perplexities.*

I am the novice visitor, back to ask strange questions. Hey, it's what I do.

I made something in Painter Classic that I liked, printed it out, then program quit unexpectedly. So, I scanned the picture back in. Took forever. Opened it in Photoshop. Took forever and another hour. Sent it to someone via email who said she went to the store because the download of attachment was taking so long. It never opened. I saw that the file size was 4 megs but it's only a 5x7. I downloaded it into Painter and it was huge with an attitude. And, of course, took forever to download. Mac 266 with 160 RAM running on OS9. Any insights will result in my cyberkissing your feet.

I wanted to download pic into a post but confess I don't know how to convert to HTML or even how to download it.

Queen of perplexities.*

Hi,

Even though your image was 5 x 7, if the resolution was high and there was a lot color information (not using the proper terms, probably), the file could be huge.

For instance, I did a test with a simple black and white image containing a few lines and minimal solid black area, 5 x 7 inches, with a resolution of 72 pixels per inch (ppi). The RIFF file size was 51 kb and the JPG file size was 31 kb.

Then I did another test using the same image dimensions and resolution, but painted the entire canvas with several colors, using various brush types and one nozzle. The RIFF file size was 284 kb and the JPG file size was 121 kb. This was not a complex image with Layers (Floaters), Shapes, Surface Texture, or other "fancy" items.. just some colored brush strokes done in about 2 minutes, but you can see the difference even so, between a very simple black and white image and a relatively simple colored image.

Since the image was scanned, the resolution could also have been high enough to make the file large. Do you remember what resolution it was?

About uploading images (downloading is when you get something and save it to your own hard drive.. uploading is when you send it to another server):

If you want to display an image here in the Painter Forum, first the image has to be on a server somewhere, often but not always on a person's own web page server owned by their ISP (Internet Service Provider) and sometimes on another (free) server like one at Geocities, for instance if you have a website and server space there. Some e-mail lists, like at eGroups, have a limited amount of server space for the group and group members upload their images to the shared files area of their group to be seen by other members.. and/or some list owners allow attachments to e-mail and images are shared that way, but both ways, it's only within the group.

Once you have some server space with your ISP or some place like Geocities, all you do here is post the URL (web location for the image or for the web page that contains it) in your message. That can be done either by typing it straight into the message or by clicking the URL button under "Instant UBB Code", at the bottom of the page where you type your messages, and typing or pasting in the URL. That places HTML code into the message and readers can click the link to go see your image.

Hope I've explained this well enough to help a little. If not, someone will straighten me out. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
_______________________

Thanks, Jinny. You explained it very well. When I scanned it back in, I reduced the dpi from 600 to 300 because of the trouble I was having. But that put it at 4 megs. The file has some complexity to it (mosaic style); I'm not sure why I didn't think of that (or why I typed download instead of upload). (Brain...screaming...for...vacation.)

I also forgot that converting something to HTML prepares a doc for upload to a connected site (i.e., recognizes my HD). Once out here in the floater zone, that doc has to be in the Web environment already in order to be recognized with UBB/HTML. (Brain...pleading shamelessly...for...time...off.)

In other words, I think (actually, not very well right now... work should be really interesting), I need a bridge between my HD and the Web through either my web page (non-existent but can make one through Earthlink) or through another vehicle like iTools. Is that accurate?

Thank you so much. Learning curves are wonderful things.

Hope you have a good day.§

Marah,

Please forgive me if I ever explain something that you know already. It's hard to know what someone knows and I usually err on the side of saying too much. (Not that I understand everything myself! Hardly!).

OK.. that said, here's something I don't know.. iTools.. what is it? Another server place like Earthlink?

Since my ISP is Earthlink (was Mindspring when I first "hired" them), and I think they're wonderful because they always help me out without a single complaint, I'd highly recommend using them for your website.

Yes, you need something like a website and its server space where you can upload your images independant of a web page or as part of a web page. Either way, you could then type the web address (URL) into your message and we'd be able to click it and go look at your image/webpage with the image in it.

Once you've done it a couple of times, that is, setting up a web page and/or uploading images to your server space, it's easy as pie.

I use a free software that Earthlink provided to me named WS_FTP to upload my graphics and web pages. It works a lot like a file manager with the local drive (my hard drive) files displayed on the left side and the Earthlink server displayed on the right side. There are left and right arrow buttons between the two windows that you click after highlighting the file(s) you want to either upload to the server or download to your hard drive.

You can make directories (folders), rename folders and files, delete folders and files, and generally manage a whole lot using this software. It's not flashy (ok with me) and it works like a charm.

I have several FTP locations set up and just pick from a dropdown list when I want to upload something.

If you decide to use Earthlink, ask them if they still give you WS_FTP.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
________________________

Hello marah!

as you can see we're always glad to help in whatever way we can on this forum [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Umm first. . . I believe that most ISPs (Internet Service Providers) of all flavors (grape, tangerine, blueberry, strawberry, [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ) give their customers a maximum of 5 MB (megabytes) of space for email so attachments to friends should be less than that (just in case they get email from people other than you. . . [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] )

My impression would be that if you intend to share many files with this friend you should take advantage of the ITools server space to share your files...

If I recall from a visit to the apple site back in one of the previous Steve Jobs grandiose speeches, iTools is a service to all New Mac owners (possibly to previous mac customers as well) that allows mac users to have something of a virtual office online.... where they can move their files to their server space on iTools and they can grant permission to friends to access those files . . . (this circumvents the need for emailing attachments or for zip disks or cds or floppies.. what macs have floppies anymore anyway?)

Again if I recall correctly, iTools would be distinct from having a web page... because it is, in effect allowing you to have the ability to FTP (File Transfer Protocol.. in geekspeak) your files to your account in the iTools service but you and your friend don't need to have any knowledge or special program for the specific purpose of doing FTP.

(heheh those of us w/o macs can use similar services free from corel's Designer.com... or from excite.com or xoom.com . .. .personally, I think Designer.com is less prone to send you junk email ... at least at the present they are. .. .kindof a neat concept for sharing files with associates)

Marah, Jinny is right FTP is a skill you'll want to get acquainted with for future web page publishing and ... no it isn't rocket science... but do give yourself time... you've got plenty to learn as it is .. ..without adding learning to FTP to your plate...:)

If the image you were going to send is only meant for email or placement on a web page.... go ahead and take your 4 MB file and resample (in painter 6 resize) the resolution down to 72 dpi.

when I scan an image, I scan for the detail that I want.. then I make color and detail corrections on the scan . ..then I resample down to 72ppi (72ppi. . . is the lowest common denominator for screen graphics this includes macs. ...if you were focusing on only pc customers then I believe 96 ppi would be the way to go... but I just get lazy and stick with 72)

And AFTER I have resampled to 96 or 72 ppi, I check the dimensions of the image.. because reducing the scan from say... 300 ppi to 72 ppi can cause the actual dimensions of the image to change. (at least that has been my experience) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I hope i haven't muddied the waters for you.. feel free to ask about anything that needs further clafification.


Athena

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


(dec 23, 2000) heh heh revisionist history strikes again! I corrected the Corel URL I had mistyped earlier... correct name is Designer.com as Stecyk mentions in a later post)

[This message was edited by T. Athena Hatton on December 23, 2000 at 04:11 AM.]

Thank you both so much. You've given me a lot of great information and I really do appreciate it.

And Jinny, as far as "downtalking" goes, I always feel it's better that way, just in case. It just shows you're a good teacher. About the iTools, what Athena said. It's really for any Mac user who goes into the icards and can opt for iTools if they'd like. I started with and still use Earthlink (I've only been on-line since March '99) and will definitely check out... that thing you mentioned (THAT was techspeak for sure!).

Athena, thank you for your response. I've got a lot of learning to do and am looking forward to it.

I have two sisters who work in computer education. One for a company in New Mexico and one for CWIT in Maryland. They're both very gifted teachers. You both remind me of them, and I'm really grateful.

Thanks again..

marah

are you working on an iMac or do you have a beige G3 tower? did painter quit with a type 2 error or a type 3 error? i'm trying to figure out what could be causing your system slowdown ( yes, i'm also determined to get some cyberkisses [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]). 4 MB is not a large file size to be causing this much trouble. as for sending images via e-mail, 4 MB is big especially for someone with a slow 'net connection. your slow system performance is probably not related to the slow internet download times. next time co nvert your pictures to jpegs 30 -100 KB in size. the dimensions have nothing to do with speed, it's the file size that counts. if you decide to post in this forum a dimension like 4x3 or 3x3 at 72-150 dpi in jpeg format at 50 -30 KB in size would fit well in the body of the forum. there is no need for your picture to be an html document to upload as general attachment.
what is your memory allocation for photoshop and painter? it might be advisable to increase the prefered memory to both of them. is your hard drive jam packed?...... just thinkin' here [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

stecyk66

Marah,

There are a few more things to consider when resampling an image, in
Painter or any other program, but I'll mostly talk about Painter here.

When you use the Canvas menu in Painter and choose Resize, the dialog
box will give you the option to change the Width and Height using
several options for units of measure (pixels, inches, CM, points, picas,
columns, or percent). The units of measure we most often deal with are
pixels or inches (in the U.S., that is).

Resolution (number of pixels per unit of measurement) can be set in
either pixels per inch or CM per inch.

CONSTRAIN FILE SIZE BOX CHECKED
_______________________________

At the bottom of the dialog box, there's a check box to Constrain File
Size. If this box is checked, even though you change the Resolution the
total number of pixels in the file will remain the same. For example, if
your image is 500 pixels wide by 500 pixels high, with a Resolution of
300 ppi (pixels per inch) the total number of pixels will be 250,000:

500 x 500 = 250,000

With the Resolution set at 300 ppi (pixels per inch), the image
dimensions in inches are:

1.67 x 1.67 inches

Now, if you keep the Constrain File Size box checked (to have the total
number of pixels in the image remain the same) and change the Resolution
to 72 ppi (pixels per inch), with only 1.67 inches for Width and Height,
unless something changes, only some of the pixels will fit into the
resampled image. For instance, across the Width of the image only 120.24
pixels will fit:

1.67 inches x 72 ppi - 120.24 pixels

If nothing else changes, the total number of pixels in the image will
be:

120.24 x 120.24 = 14,457.6576 pixels

250,000 - 14,457.6576 = 235,542.3424 leftover pixels

Obviously, without something changing, all of the pixels won't fit
into the image, so what has to happen? Here's what:

The number of inches has to be increased to hold all the pixels. Let's
figure out how many inches are needed when the Resolution is changed to
72 ppi (each inch can only hold 72 pixels):

500 pixels divided by 72 pixels per inch = 6.944 inches

Now with the number of inches increased to 6.944 x 6.944, the total
number of pixels per inch remains 250,000, even though the Resolution
(number of pixels per inch) has been lowered from 300 ppi to 72 ppi.

NOTE: Fortunately, in the Resize dialog box, Painter figures out this
number of inches for you. It's important, though, to do the settings in
this in order: First type in the Resolution. Then change the unit of
measure for Width and Height from pixels to inches. Now you'll see the
number of inches for Width and Height change, for instance, from 1.67 to
6.944.

All of this is important to know because if you're trying to make your
file
smaller by reducing the Resolution, but you keep the Constrain File Size
box checked, the file is still going to be the same size.. not smaller.

CONSTRAIN FILE SIZE BOX NOT CHECKED
___________________________________

What happens if you uncheck the Constrain File Size box? The image will
remain 1.67 x 1.67 inches and not only the file size will become
smaller, but the image will become much smaller (visually) on the
Painter screen. It will display at roughly 1.67 inches, visually,
depending on your screen resolution. On my screen, set at 1024 x 768,
when I use a ruler to measure the image it's approximately 1-15/32 x
1-15/32 inches.

That may be fine if what you wanted to display is a very small image.
It's not so fine if you wanted your image to look something like it did
on your Painter screen at 300 ppi.

When you see the original 500 x 500 pixel, 300 ppi image displayed on
your
Painter screen at 100% percent, it's displayed in pixels and the visual
size is partially dependant on whatever resolution your screen is set to
(mine is
set to 1024 x 768 and the image measured on the Painter screen with a
ruler is approximately 6-7/32 x 6-7/32 inches). On the web, it's much
the same. On my browser screen, the same image, not resampled to a
Resolution of 72 ppi and measured with a ruler is approximately the same
as what I measured on the Painter screen, around 6 1/2 x 6 1/2 inches.

Now, at least we know how to retain the visual size for display on the
Web. But how can we reduce the file size so the file is easy to upload
or send via e-mail and loads reasonably quickly on a web page?

REDUCING FILE SIZE WITHOUT REDUCING VISUAL SIZE
_______________________________________________

This is best done by either choosing a lower quality when saving as a
JPG in Painter, or by using another program to optimize the image. I use
Fireworks and am able to get a large image rather drastically reduced in
file size while retaining pretty good visual quality (it still looks
pretty close to the original image quality).

If you don't have a program like Fireworks, do some testing using the
various quality settings in the JPG Encoding Quality dialog box when you
save the file as a JPG.

Important: To do this without losing your original image quality, first
save your in Painter's native format, RIFF. Then, as an excercise to
learn how this works and to choose the best file, make a folder to
contain some test files and save each test file to that folder.

Next, open the RIFF file in Painter and:

Save one time as a JPG, Quality: Excellent.
Save it a second time as a JPG, Quality: High.
Save it a third time as a JPG, Quality: Good.
Save it a fourth time as a JPG, Quality: Fair.

Now go to the folder and compare the file sizes.

Go back to Painter and use Ctrl/Command-H to hide all of your palettes,
then open all four of the JPG files and compare the visual quality. You
may have to use Ctrl/Command-+ (plus sign) to zoom in and compare
details and Ctrl/Command-- (minus sign) to zoom out again (or Ctrl/Command-1 to
open the Tools palette and use the Magnifier tool).

Choose the image that has a combination of least visual quality
loss/best file size reduction (this is a compromise we need to make when
using images on the Web). Remember, images on the Web are not super high
quality for three reasons:

The Web can only display 72 or 96 ppi anyway.
Large file sizes are slow to load and visitors don't want to hang around
and wait.
Large file sizes take up too much server space.

(Image dimensions, too, need to be kept at a reasonable size so that
visitors will be able to see them without using the scroll bars (very
annoying and detracts from the image viewing experience). The safest
maximum dimensions that anyone should be able to see are: 640 x 480. A
reasonable limit for most viewers would be 800 x 600.)

If anyone reading this message finds that I've misstated something, left
something out, or haven't made it clear enough, please jump in and
correct me/improve on what I've said as I don't want to misinform and
would like to learn better myself. Also, it would be great to have a
fine-tuned explanation of all this available for Painter users to refer
to, since the subject comes up so often. Thanks in advance. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Marah.. I hope this helps and is not too confusing. If it is, just keep
the information and refer to it once in a while. In time, it will become
clearer. It's confusing to most of us, especially in the beginning.
And.. ask lots of questions.. ask lots of people.

Merry Christmas! Now I'm off to finish shopping!


Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
_______________________

[This message was edited by Jinny Brown on December 21, 2000 at 10:54 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jinny Brown on December 21, 2000 at 10:55 AM.]

jinny [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

wow . am i correct in assuming that you love every bit of painter 6! seriously comprehensive stuff. have you thought of providing tutorials for the designer.com section on the corel site? you'd be the natural choice, i think. seems to be a lot of new people getting into painter lately.

marah

to add to what jinny has stated. unlike windows, mac os doesn't provide a nifty preview of a file in the folder window ( a feature in Os X! ) so you'll have to do a single click on the jpeg file then do a file>get info>general information, dance to see the file size. you can also try making jpegs in photoshop too. know also that different monitors are going to display at different dimensions depending on the size of monitor and the display resolution. to preview how your jpeg image will appear in the browser window for your particular monitor, just simply open up a netscape or explorer window and drag the jpeg into it. the browser will load it and display it as it will appear. experiment this way till you find a good configuration with which to standardize

stecyk66

hi Stecyk,

Yes, I love (almost) every bit of Painter (scripts give me fits and movies still do also.. but then, I haven't spent a lot of time getting over those little difficulties... yet). [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

No, I hadn't thought of doing the Corel (what was it? designers.com?) thing, but thanks for the suggestion and nice words about my "teaching".

You know, writing out something to explain it to someone else helps to clarify it in one's own mind too.. so I learn while I attempt to help someone else learn.. and always welcome feedback on anything I write along these lines since it's easy to be wrong.. or at least leave something out/make it less than clear.

On another subject: Are you kidding? Mac users can't see file sizes? I sure could when I used Macs a year or two ago when taking graphics classes. I was referring to checking file sizes in the file manager (whatever Mac calls that).. where you can see all the folders and files on your hard drive.

Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
________________________

jinny

yeah the files in a folder can be viewed as a list and the document and file size is displayed. it isn't my favourite display mode but in windows the folders have the left side dedicated to showing the file stats and a large image preview when you click a file icon. it's a nice automatic feature.


stecyk66

You'll want to check out Wayne Fulton's Scantips website for the lowdown on all of this resolution stuff and how to work it when scanning...
http://www.scantips.com/

Doug Frost

Stecyk,

This won't give you the file sizes but in Painter (and I don't recall if this has already been mentioned in this thread), when you use:

File menu, Open

click any file in the list, then click the Browse button and wait a few seconds while the files are displayed in thumbnails. Any file that was saved from inside of Painter and hasn't been moved from another folder since then will be displayed in the thumbnails. Once a file is moved to another folder, unless the Preview file is moved with it, it won't be displayed as a thumbnail.

With some pre-planning, any folder's contents can be represented as thumbnails if that's important to the Painter user.

Doug,

Thanks for the good link for Scan Tips! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Merry Christmas to all

Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
________________________

I am so embarrassed that I hadn't returned to this thread. I can't begin to thank you all enough for your extremely comprehensive and helpful expertise. Good griefus! I will be supplementing my diet with the words and instructions here. I'm getting th e printer paper out!
Stecyk, I'm running an imac 266 with 160 megs on OS9.

OK, here it comes...

*Cyberkisses all around*

And I'm not talking about those silly air kisses. Take your shoes off!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

(Yes, doctor, I'm aware I have a problem. But some problems are fun enough to keep...) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

And Doug, thanks for the link. Very excellent, I must say.

[This message was edited by marah on January 11, 2001 at 01:48 PM.]

[This message was edited by marah on January 11, 2001 at 01:50 PM.]

Marah,

It's difficult to be everywhere at once.. you're forgiven. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Glad to have you back again! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
________________________