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Hello, my name is Gary David Bouton, and I'd like to be one of the first to welcome you to TalkGraphics.com's newest forum: 3D.
Now, before we get 12,000 questions on the coolest way to make a sphere in Bryce, I'd like very much to set a broader tone and scope for discussions. Naturally, we'll be doing some back and forths with specific products, but "3D", or more correctly, the process of modeling and rendering is more involved than a push and a click. I'd like to explain ways of acheiving photoreality, or even hyper-reality using what you've bought, and not what you need to buy. IOW, SoftImage is not the entry fee for this forum! <g>
There are lots of topics we can address here. Just off the top of my head:
•How to you create realistic refection maps for chrome?
•How do you soften ray traced shadows?
•How do you animate something and make a QT or Video for Windows movie?
•Do you need tricks for texture mapping, reflection, or height mapping? What are the best programs?
•Clouds: what's the best way of making realistic ones?
•Are there any rendering programs that do not reduce spline meshes into polygons?
I could go on, but as you can see, I want to get our forum into the nuts and bolts...a true understanding of the mechanicsa and the "Basic 6 Elements" of creating scenes:
•The camera (types of lenses)
•The object(s)-how to build complex objects from primitives and Boolean functions)
•Textures (and mapping)
•Surfaces (and mapping)
•Lighting (atmosphere is optional
•Motion (if animating)
Naturally, we'll get into metaball technology, volumetric lighting, radiosity, and other "perks" that have grown into most modeling program systems, however, I want this forum to have the same sort of richness that the XARA and Photoshop forums have. To tell you the truth, I'm a Photoshop author by career, and there isn't a day that goes by when I need to retouch a model in Photoshop. So you see, one program can kind of grow into another, and I want these routes explored here.
You need to draw a shadow for an Adobe Dimensions model? Right here's the place to look or ask? Are you having problems with polygon creases in your rendering? I'll take you through the solution using Photoshop.
I'm excited. I think we can have a lot of fun here and exchange a lot of techniques and tricks.
After all, what ofther forum can say that they are concentrating on reality<g>?
Yours,
Gary David Bouton
Gary@Boutons.comhttp://www.gary...es/dessert.htm
Gary David Bouton
www.boutons.com
Gary@GaryWorld.com
Visit a really large gallery at www.GaryWorld.com!
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Hello, my name is Gary David Bouton, and I'd like to be one of the first to welcome you to TalkGraphics.com's newest forum: 3D.
Now, before we get 12,000 questions on the coolest way to make a sphere in Bryce, I'd like very much to set a broader tone and scope for discussions. Naturally, we'll be doing some back and forths with specific products, but "3D", or more correctly, the process of modeling and rendering is more involved than a push and a click. I'd like to explain ways of acheiving photoreality, or even hyper-reality using what you've bought, and not what you need to buy. IOW, SoftImage is not the entry fee for this forum! <g>
There are lots of topics we can address here. Just off the top of my head:
•How to you create realistic refection maps for chrome?
•How do you soften ray traced shadows?
•How do you animate something and make a QT or Video for Windows movie?
•Do you need tricks for texture mapping, reflection, or height mapping? What are the best programs?
•Clouds: what's the best way of making realistic ones?
•Are there any rendering programs that do not reduce spline meshes into polygons?
I could go on, but as you can see, I want to get our forum into the nuts and bolts...a true understanding of the mechanicsa and the "Basic 6 Elements" of creating scenes:
•The camera (types of lenses)
•The object(s)-how to build complex objects from primitives and Boolean functions)
•Textures (and mapping)
•Surfaces (and mapping)
•Lighting (atmosphere is optional
•Motion (if animating)
Naturally, we'll get into metaball technology, volumetric lighting, radiosity, and other "perks" that have grown into most modeling program systems, however, I want this forum to have the same sort of richness that the XARA and Photoshop forums have. To tell you the truth, I'm a Photoshop author by career, and there isn't a day that goes by when I need to retouch a model in Photoshop. So you see, one program can kind of grow into another, and I want these routes explored here.
You need to draw a shadow for an Adobe Dimensions model? Right here's the place to look or ask? Are you having problems with polygon creases in your rendering? I'll take you through the solution using Photoshop.
I'm excited. I think we can have a lot of fun here and exchange a lot of techniques and tricks.
After all, what ofther forum can say that they are concentrating on reality<g>?
Yours,
Gary David Bouton
Gary@Boutons.comhttp://www.gary...es/dessert.htm
Gary David Bouton
www.boutons.com
Gary@GaryWorld.com
Visit a really large gallery at www.GaryWorld.com!
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Thanks for the Welcome Gary! It's great to see a forum dedicated to 3d graphics here at TalkGraphics.com. I imagine I'll probably be spending most of my time here (well, my 'TalkGraphics' time that is). [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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I humbly greet my fellow 3D enthusiasts, and look forward to many hours/days/months & perhaps even years [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] of an interesting, humorous & knowledgable exchange of information on this board.
I have MANY questions concerning texturing/mapping. This one subject has been a thorn in my side for a long time - i can't believe that with the complexity & precision that 3D has come to allow an artist, texturing is still such a pain in the a** to pull off convincingly. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
Thank goodness, finally, this issue is being looked after with the creation of apps like "DeepPaint 3D" & Maxon's "BodyPaint 3D". Albeit, even these programs would appear to have their own limitations.
Does anyone else feel the same as i do with this issue?
Have a good one!
Mark...
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Yes Mark, I'd have to agree with you there. Althought UV texturing mapping has become more and more popular, it has yet to become as intuitive as one would think it should be. On top of that, every program does it differently, from LightWave, to 3D Studio Max, to Poser, to Maya, to you name it. There really is no easy solution. The only thing I can suggest is to focus on the method that your primary 3d application uses, and learn it well. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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Yes, i will definately agree with you on that Earl - learn your application's methodologies well.
Although i post an example in the Xara forum (and what a thread THAT is!), i mainly use/prefer C4D myself. That, and Rhino for model building.
Bryce was a gift, and i'm most curious about it's method of texturing - it would appear to use procedural textures by default. And image texturing as an alternative - which it too has a lot of funky limitations in doing.
UV mapping is a great concept. The only problem now is... the current 3D apps out there aren't developed enough to fully implement it's abilities. Would you agree on that?
Oh ya btw Earl... you have some very nice work on that url you posted at the Xara forum (that IS your stuff, right?). That Raptor is excellent! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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Cinema 3D is a powerful application. I've never used it myself, but I've heard from others about it (I have reviewed its website to check out its features/gallery, etc). In fact, I've probably gone to every major 3d applications website - I find it intriguing to see how they approach different areas of 3d. Rhino I have used a little, though I am not fluent in it. It's a great modeling application - I think just about any 3d user would agree on that.
Bryce 3D - now that's an interesting program. It has such a large following. I've only dabbled with it here and there, but I've had an oportunity to 'play' a bit more here recently (now that Corel has bought it). I could very easily go on further about this... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
UV mapping is fantastic. The idea behind it anyway. So far I've yet to see a program implement it with perfect intuition. Since I'm primarily a LightWave user, I'll say that LightWave's still very new to UV mapping (they just added it with version [6] released early 2000). LightWave's improved it greatly with version 6.5, but it's still a wee bit clumsy if you ask me. So yes! I asbolutely agree with that on the UV mapping issue. Here's hoping things change. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
And now finally...I realized my mistake when Beth complimented me on the lily! I was in sucha hurry to gather some of the 'best' 3d art I had seen recently, that I completely forgot to clearly state that it was NOT my own work. Sorry about that! (I made a reply to that thread clearing this up!) I'm afraid I've yet to do anything that impressive, but soon. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] The only image on that page that was my own work was the red ten-sided di.
Phew...I think I'm going to try to avoid posting anything related to 3d in the Xara forum in the future. Sheeesh, did that get out of hand. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]
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Nice to have you back on the boards Gary!
Dennis Cox
<a href=http://www.djart.com>DJArt & Design</a>
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Welcome back Gary. I am so glad you are here.
Unfortunately, I still dont know much about 3D. But I do have a project coming up that I would like to use 3D on.
The first (and only) thing I did in 3D was definately unpleasant. I had to change a floor plan of a house into a 3D rendering...so I farmed out the 3D part and then I was going to do a watercolour effect to that in Painter. Well the guy crapped out on me the night before deadline. I had to stay up all night to cram as much as I could about 3D. And the only 3D program I had was Corel Dream 3D (forget the name). I dont think the program supported booleans...and I had a hell of a time with the roof. I ended up giving up about 10 am and taking what I had into Xara and adding the roof on to it. THe result was pretty bad...very stiff looking and I did not have time to do the watercolour effect. (I know...would you like cheese with that whine)
I have since bought Inspire 3D....kind of the mini-Lightwave. So I am glad to see some Lightwave people here.
But to ask a few questions.
Is Earls (but not done by him [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ) lily example done in a ray tracing program? Can you tell that by looking at it?<br>
What is the difference in a ray tracing program and the regular 3D programs? <br>
There must have been alot of post-3D stuff done right? Can you do the subtle changes on the petals going from green to pink in a 3D program? <br>
And if I understand 3D correctly, you generally do 3 views of the object and let the program interpret the shape from there. This seems relatively non-threatening when you are doing a coffee cup or a house...but to do that lily. Man o man. Thin things must be brutal to do in a 3D program.
Oh and what is Maya? That apparently comes with Mac OS X.
Beth
removed the attachment as it was too big physically and made a mess of the pages HTML. So link to Lily example (hope you dont mind Earl<br>
http://www.duke-entertainment.com/3d...hics_temp.html
[This message was edited by Beth Mohler on March 31, 2001 at 01:39 PM.]
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Hi Beth,
Wow, what a first experience! Sounds like a nightmare. Learning 3d on a deadline is very tough, and not exactly pleasant. I commend your effort.
Ahh, Inspire 3D - LightWave's little cousin. It's a great program from what I hear. I've never actually used it myself, but it's built with the same stunning render engine - which is what makes it stand out from products of similar value. I imagine there are significant differences between LightWave and Inspire, but we should be able to share ideas fairly easily.
The lily was made entirely in LightWave 3D [6.5] (the latest version). Just about every 3d program is what you classified as a 'ray tracing' program. Ray tracing is simply the technique used to render your images into something useful (aka, bitmaps). Inspire 3D, LightWave 3D - both are excellent examples of advanced ray tracing programs. Thus, the lily was indeed 'ray traced' into existence. There was no post process work done to the lily (the author of it claims it was done entirely in LightWave, with some textures used that he created in PhotoShop). And YES! You can get any amount of subtle color changes, shading, gradients - you name it, you can render it. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Modeling objects can be a difficult task. It takes a lot of conceptualizing to be able to create a 3d object using 2d tools (mouse, monitor, etc). Programs will give you different views: top, left, back, right, bottom, perspective, etc; but even with those it can be difficult to see all facets of an object. Modeling something organic, or complicated such as the lily takes a lot of time. I imagine the author spent a lot of time in the perspective viewport in order to rotate it to get a better idea of its shape - especially for thin petals and such. When I'm modeling something complicated, such as a dragon head, I find myself rotating the perspective viewport VERY often. It takes a lot of patience (which I often lack). [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Oh...Maya is another 3D program. It's one of the 'top dogs' out there (along with Softimage, LightWave, and 3D Studio Max). I seriously doubt it comes free with the Mac OS X, as the program ranges up and around $10,000. Perhaps they have a demo included... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
To learn more about Maya, you can visit its website at:
Alias|Wavefront
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Hi folks,
Beth...
Here a very simple way of conceptualizing what 3D is, and how 3D programs work...
Think of it as if you were working with clay or putty (3D polygonal/mesh/hypernurb models), that you will later paint (texture map), and take a photo of (render) - (to share with friends and family!) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Sometimes too, it may be necessary (or preferable)to 'touch-up' your photograph (rendered image) with a program like Photoshop.
You work in a studio that has many rooms. Each room you work in presents you with a different "perspective" of how your project looks - i.e. TopView/FrontView/SideView/BackView/3D Perspective View/etc...
If you wish to work in the 'main control' room, you can turn on a set of monitors that allow you simultaneous multiple views of your object/scene.
Simple objects like a sphere, cone, box, etc. (known as primitives), are easy to make, paint, and take practically no time to photograph. Most programs will have 'quick buttons' for primary shapes (primitives).
More complex shapes/scenes, such as a living room with funiture and fixings, will take longer to create, paint, and photograph (because there are more objects in the scene/environment - hence more decisions to be made).
The objects in a scene such as that would be created by combining primitives through a boolean process (also know as 'welding') (like sticking a ball of clay onto a clay box shape and smearing the seams using water; to remove the seams)
If you should choose to take your work over to another studio to paint, either before, during or after your creation process (ala Photoshop, Painter, etc.), then it will add time to your creation's development. But should have little or no bearing on the time taken to photograph (render) your creation.
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And that's how i learned to understand better how 3D programs work. Hope that helps...? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Mark...
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Hi Gary and all the others,
thanks for the great intro! I'm excited to see something new in this forum!
Textures: yes, UV is great, but UVW is even better. But as far as I know it's integrated only in Cinema 4D XL.
Using several apps like Rhino and Cinema, you are not only limited to 'renderings', but you can print your 3D models via a 3D printer or stereolithography as well (it's a snap with Rhino models).
Beth,
3D is a world of it's own. Some say too realistic. IMHO, this is only the case if you use it for renderings. But for product development and rendering a product in a 'natural' environment even before a prototype exists is mind boggling.
Anyway, let's rock and roll here - 3D ** IS ** the future.
jens (I hope I'll have the time to be able to watch the XARA X forum and this one as well)
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Indeed you are correct Jens. UVW is 'better' than UV texture mapping. I often say "UV" when I'm talking about UVW. Sorry for not being more specific. And most major 3D applications support UVW texturing mapping. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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Yep, that's right Earl. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Bryce uses UVW by default.
But... i'm finding out that even UVW has it's own 'specific' uses. It isn't always the best way to go - and i know you guys weren't being THAT specific, just thought i'd tell you about what *i've* discovered. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Mark...
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Thanks for all the wonderful answers. Im glad to see such interest in this forum.
I did not realize you could do such realistic stuff in 3D. I assumed that it also took alot of post production work. I am so impressed. The texture is completely appropriate. And you know Earl, your die is very good too. The amount of transparency is bang on.
I am not sure about the Maya thing. Something about it comes with OS X. So maybe it is indeed a demo. I will look at Apples site when I get a chance.
Thanks for the 3D break down Mark. It certainly helps fill in some of the gaps. I think I will mostly lurk around in this area until I get a chance to mess around in Inspire3D.My nature as an artist is fairly realistic, so I think 3D would be a perfect vehicle for me. Besides I would like to break into the architectural renderings market.
Beth
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I think Beth that the biggest little secret about learning 3D through 3D programs is the fact that, especially if you're just learning to be an artist, or getting into a different area than your norm, you can teach yourself an awful lot about the 3 dimensional world in general.
Most, if not all artists that do not give 3D a try seem to overlook that fact. And as such, i think they're missing out on a great "learning" tool.
You don't have to be a wizard in 3D graphics creation... you just have to be suseptable to paying attention to how a 3D program renders things - light, shadow, reflection, highlight, perspective, etc.etc...
I use my 3D programs a lot just to 'learn' how something will look in 3 dimensions. Then, i try to replicate that in say, Photoshop for instance. I mean really... there's just some types of objects, environments that most people would not normally have at their disposal; right? So... that's what i use the 3D program for. And why not? It's of great help! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
