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Here is a historical figure of whom I enjoyed reading about so very much! I've never seen any photos of the very valiant man,so I don't know
what he looks like. So, I just created an Indian
with the noble qualities that were dipicted in the historical article.
The complete discourse is overwhelming...because
he brings to light that he had seen solidiers
killing buffalo with longguns,from the train as it
passed through the open plains..he says to them..
possibly he didn't know what he was taliking about because..."I am a savage". Wisdom of an eagle...
I really enjoyed doing this one...
walk softly at the edges..."Wild" (my new handle they gave me) bill [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]
Annex> May I say to ALL,especially any American Indian whoever, that this piece of artwork that I did totaly from my mind does in no way portrays in any authentic way the personage here shown. If in ANY WAY someone may be offended by this figure,whom I whole heartedly wanted to reflect the beautiful, human qualities of the person of NOAH SEALTH. If the information I used to base this figure on is inaccurate, this is of course something else to be considered. I did not or will not take issue in those regards. My intent I feel has been, by some, to have been completely misconstrued. Those who are reading the piece correctly have commented with that understanding.
So,by the advice of the Moderator I place this annexrd comment..hoping to "walk more softly at the edges". Thank you. William R.Cleg
[This message was edited by William R.Clegg on July 22, 2001 at 17:58.]
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Here is a historical figure of whom I enjoyed reading about so very much! I've never seen any photos of the very valiant man,so I don't know
what he looks like. So, I just created an Indian
with the noble qualities that were dipicted in the historical article.
The complete discourse is overwhelming...because
he brings to light that he had seen solidiers
killing buffalo with longguns,from the train as it
passed through the open plains..he says to them..
possibly he didn't know what he was taliking about because..."I am a savage". Wisdom of an eagle...
I really enjoyed doing this one...
walk softly at the edges..."Wild" (my new handle they gave me) bill [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]
Annex> May I say to ALL,especially any American Indian whoever, that this piece of artwork that I did totaly from my mind does in no way portrays in any authentic way the personage here shown. If in ANY WAY someone may be offended by this figure,whom I whole heartedly wanted to reflect the beautiful, human qualities of the person of NOAH SEALTH. If the information I used to base this figure on is inaccurate, this is of course something else to be considered. I did not or will not take issue in those regards. My intent I feel has been, by some, to have been completely misconstrued. Those who are reading the piece correctly have commented with that understanding.
So,by the advice of the Moderator I place this annexrd comment..hoping to "walk more softly at the edges". Thank you. William R.Cleg
[This message was edited by William R.Clegg on July 22, 2001 at 17:58.]
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That is absolutely incredible! Determination and strength are strongly evident in his face and stance. I love it!
Joelle
The sandcastles of our lives are nothing when compared to the tides of our destinies.
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Hey Bill
Nice image but you really should do some research before posting these kind of things. Noah Sealth was his christain name. He was more well known as Cheif Seattle from the state of Washington. No where near the Souix people. On your image it says that He was a Cheif of the Souix. The Souix people are from South Dakotoa. A long way from Washington. His real name is "si?al". He is from the Duwamish and Suquamish Tribes.
http://historylink.org/output.cfm?file_id=1406
I have done a lot of reading on the Souix people and I never heard of this Cheif. There is also much controversy as to whether si? al ever gave this speech or not. It seems to be a big hoax.
http://www.urbanlegends.com/misc/chi...nt_speech.html
The well known chiefs of the souix would be
Crazy horse.
http://www.indians.org/welker/crazyhor.htm
Or Siting Bull
http://www.indigenouspeople.org/natlit/sittbull.htm
Altavista.com is a good search engine and will help you in your future research.
http://altavista.com/
Now you know the real story.
[This message was edited by Bruce Stawicki on July 21, 2001 at 22:46.]
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a great picture Bill. The character you have drawn is very strong but I especially like the way you present your work -its very striking.
Brian
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,,for info.
If and when I'm commisioned to do a piece of work,
and if, as with Noah Sealth, has to be presented
in a most precise way etc.,then I'll do that necessay research.
This is just a CREATION that I did. I had read this article in local newspaper,a 2 page spread and it
gave those details that I mentioned. I was moved by the contents of what had occured and wanted to do MY INTERPRETATION of what this person might look like.
As a matter of fact I don't know if the Souix Indians used eagle feathers in the way that I made
them...whether 1 or 2..with a bit of fluffy eagle down. So I do hope that any real Indian will understand this Creation. I didn't intend that evey bit&bit of the piece would depict 'authenticity'. I had this happen with some jewelry I did. I guess from now on I should just leave it as a 'piece of artwork' that I've done.
I didn't even think of questioning the article in newspaper. The fellow who wrote it has his name there as the editor of it. I would imagine that HE would have had to done some research..I don't know.
I've seen real explosive artwork depicting something historical..only from the artistic standpoint and nothing authentically historical.
I've read about a movie, whose scriptwriters said they had gotten info from such&such..however, there was someone who said that the info was incorrect. Now, for a movie I can readily understand their concern for authenticity. Yet, the copywriter said that those who questioned it see the source of info because that is what was given to them. I was NOT going to sit down and question the fellow who wrote the newspaper article unless I had some powerful reason to do so.
I just did a piece of work interpreting MY feelings of what this person would look like etc.
No more..No less..
But I do appreciate your concern. Thank You.
wald softly at the edges..bill
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
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...yep, as "Wild"Bill would say..I got the idea!
Understand perfectly...but can't understand it's application with this piece...I said "I created an Indian depicting his noble qualities".
I understand the forum to be, as you put it 'a fun thing' with learning, sharing etc. I have found this to be true with many others on the forum and
I respect them for this.
As I had said I read article about this noble person..Noah Sealth..is that the person? I don't
know. Did I make a piece of artwork that belittles
him?..FAR FROM IT. If we can't understand the GENUINE attempt to CREATE some figure reflecting those qualities then I think someones on the wrong street.
Applying what you say..DaVinci would turn over in his grave if he knew they've written 24,000 volumnes about ...Mona Lisa's SMILE! (BTW you didn't write one,,did you?)
Hey..Risto, did you do an oficial study on the noble Viking? ...do they have 'cut out eyes'. Just
following the line of thought of the Moderatror.
Someone replied ...'determination and strength'
is shone. That's it...that's what I wanted to portray. If the historical info that I got from news article is not correct...that's something else. But from the very start, and as I said in the inicial post...THIS MAN WAS A VERY WISE PERSON.(Did anyone see the eagle?..simbol of wisdom).
I appreciate what you SAY, but sometimes it sounds as if you're JUST SAYING it and not really wanting to Help one learn more about XARA. An example was the Jewelry I did and said 'Navajo' jewelry. The
information that you gave me,links and all were fine. I used it and did a piece...you didn't comment on if it was more to YOUR knowledge of it. However, one xarian did...he said that it was MUCH
CLOSER to what the Native American jewelry looks like.
(One thing I might add...Ross seems to comment very much like you. Is there some connection? I see he his a moderator, too? Just courious.)
walk softly at the edges..bill [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
BTW..Bruce/Gary...if you car to..
http://www.ideal.es/waste/sealth.htm.(English) I just took a look at this...
[This message was edited by William R.Clegg on July 22, 2001 at 15:27.]
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Sometimes I don't get all those intellectual clashes here and there. Probably because I lack knowlede of some of the past threads. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]
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..thank you for your objective comment! It is indeed very refreshing.
I too, 'don't get it', Dmagician. There seems to be too much being read into some of my work. They say, if I'm not careful, I could be misrepresenting some one..people etc. In all of my posts I make it clear that I'm just 'creating' of my own visual interests etc and ABSOULTELY NOTHING, is intended to do harm in ANY WAY. But they tear it apart as if that is what was purposed. Strange, I haven't seen this done with another. Like you say..."I don't get it"?
Thanks for concern..bill [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]
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So, Bill...
You flood the forums with work, protest when no-one comments on it, but leap into pages of verbose self-justification whenever someone expresses an adverse opinion. Comparing your 'historical' attempts (labelled, with accompanying text) to Risto's stylised Vikings is disingenuous, trying to circumvent offence to others by claiming that you're just 'creating of [your] own visual interests' strikes me as a selfishly blinkered response, and your implied attack on Ross (who hasn't even been involved in this discussion) is completely unwarranted.
Sorry, Bill, but you're not the only forum member who's ever come in for negative criticism. If you 'haven't seen this done with another', however, it's probably because most others haven't invited it to quite the extent that you do!
Peter</p>
Peat Stack or Pete's Tack?</p>
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Regardless of what's been said here, I think it would be a shame if this incident caused you to depart from the board ... keep the flood of great images pouring forth [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
David K
www.dkingdesign.com
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..for your frank statements. I well appreciate
the very artistically talented people there are in this forum.
If you have read some of my postings where I openly
acknowledge any constructive observations to correct etc.I have corrected many times. Read carefully and you will see the
appreciation I feel for all those wonderful tidbits of info and experience had by those on the forum.
I have great respect for all of you...I only mentioned Risto as an example of his drawing Vikings with his 'interpretation'. It is truly inspiring work. What I wanted to bring out is the fact that I've never read where the Moderator(s) have doubted his creations as "possibly misrepresenting" the valiant Viking. The line of reasoning of the Moderator(s) is not consistent to
his alegations when he comments on some incorrect info etc. Then to say that this "type of work"could possibly give wrong impressions as has been seen with many ethnic abuse shown. THIS I TAKE AS A PERSONAL INSULT!!! To infer that this piece of artwork (Noah Sealth) which I make clear of it's intent in the post, is to APPLAUDE,as it were the individual man for his Courage and Wisdom!!!
If I thought for one momment that I, as you say cannot accept any critisim etc.I would be the first to acknowledge that. I am 66 yrs.old..have tons of experience...but never too old to learn. If you have.like I said, read some of my postings and comments offering thanks etc.to those who give constructive critique...FINE FINE.
Am I the target for something in my personal being? I don't know. I have a lot gliches therein!
The forum is a fantastic place and setting to really learn and produce. And this I have endeouved to do. If I have, like I've said many times, offeded anyone for this I offer my heartfelt apologies. I have tried in everyway not to offend anyone with words or whatever.
I believe there is something more to all of this than what is being 'said'. I don't know exactly but I have never in all my years working as a Creative Artist experienced this type of thing.
I've had many one-man shows of my work etc. Critiques of all kinds...I expect that,but never
with innuendos etc. I have lived as an artist with out this type of thing...I don't think I want to finish my years having to confront this..maybe
an exit is due.
Thank you...
walk softly at the edges..William R.Clegg [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]
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Look, Bill, what I really meant to say was that sometimes you just come over as trying too hard. Tempting as it can be (for all of us!) to keep trying to explain everything at length all the time, sometimes it's just best to hold back and let things be.
For what it's worth, if you'd simply presented the image as one inspired by the story that inspired you, without incorporating the name and quotation into the artwork (yes, I know it was part of the whole concept), I think your stance on 'creating' and your 'own visual interests' might have made a lot more sense. But I can assure you that I have read your posts carefully and can usually see where you're coming from — it's just that (and don't I know it from bitter experience?) sometimes trying too hard can only make things worse. (Think of 'the lady doth protest too much' from Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 2!)
No, I don't want to see you hounded from the forums (I'm not like that, believe me!) and I don't believe anyone else does either. Sorry if I came on too strong, but please just think about it some more, Bill.
All the best [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Peter</p>
Peat Stack or Pete's Tack?</p>
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Last night, when I watched Bill react to Bruce's post, (but refrained from commenting), my feeling was that Bill was too defensive, that it would have been better if he had just accepted Bruce's attempt to educate him and said "thanks for the information".
BTW, Bruce, do you think the Suquamish of WA state are the same as the Squamish band we have in the Vancouver, BC area and northward? I didn't realize they extended so far south... I guess our national borders created an arbitrary division of what was a very large band.
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Halito Bill Chim achukma?
This is hello and how are you in the 'Choctaw" Laungauge. I did not mean to offend you. I hope that you do not leave us. I like your work and I enjoy seeing it in the forum. I may have come on a bit strong , maybe it is just me as I am from a native american background and I am a bit sensitive to this.
I know that you did not mean any offense to anyone and you were only posting your interpretation of what Noah may have looked like. But you must keep in mind that the native american people are many different nations with many different cultures. They have different customs, different languages, arts, dress etc. and they do not all look the same. If you had just posted a picture and said this was my rendition of a native american then that would have been a little different. I do not think that you should have to do extensive research on everything that you post but be careful. I do thank you for helping me to learn a little about the Duwamish and Squwamish people. Your artwork would be much missed in this forum so I hope that you will not leave us. Hopefully you will understand where I am coming from.
May we all walk softly together.
I am not an expert on the native american nations as there are many. Most likely the Squamish people from Washington are the same people that bcdeb is asking about in Vancouver.
http://www.squamish.net/index.htm
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I learned that the Squamish Indian Band, as I know it, is a 1923 almalgamation of 16 Squamish speaking villages in the region from Vancouver to the Squamish River, including the lower part of the Sunshine Coast, where I live. (I didn't know that). They pronounced it "Squ-HO-o-meesh". They are actually a Coast Salish peoples, and I believe the Suquamish of WA are also. They probably spoke the same language. But apparently this was not a closely organized group, prior to the almagamation. It consisted of many distinct villages.
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"Games people play" by Eric Berne.
It is a funny book in which he analyses the transactions between people, the games we all play to fill in the time we can waste.
Funny, and oh so true... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
If you don't work against time, time often works for you.
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Bill, you I would never imagine someone older than my father who is a complete "non-copmputer" man is actually using one of the best and still quite a small and unnapreciated tool called Xara to create so many great designs. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]
An hey that walking near the edges always brings Catcher in the Rye back into my memory.
I'm just 25... 25 years old people should be creative, energetic, bursting with ideas.. I must admit that I'm none of these... bwah ;-). I wish I had your perspective.
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
And hey forum people, don't take the web too seriously. It's not a real communication. You would never say what sometimes say here if tou were standing just in front of you looking to your eyes. You wouldn't even have chance to talk that much as you sometimes do here. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
Roman
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Roman, for 25 years of age you speak an awful lot of sense. Bill, I (we all) love your pictures and want you to continue contributing to this forum. I couldn't have expressed myself like Roman just has, but they are my feelings too.
Brian
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Bill - I love your technique with the face! It is very inspiring. Thanks for the zoomed image - it makes it much clearer how you developed the drawing.
Regards, Ross
<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>
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I just love it...I don't care what you named it, it is a wonderful piece of art. Have you given any considerations to doing some prints? I'll take one (if I can afford it), and I don't even have a southwestern home, guess I'll have to remodel a room anyway. You could name him Chief Running Xara for all I care (Chief spelled correctly).
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]
http://www.deltamoon.addr.com/deltaneon.jpg
