Son of Salt & Pepper

Using Big Frank's raytraced version of Jen's Salt and Pepper Shaker design, I recreated a simplified vector version.

I think it's cleaner, but then I'm a might predudiced.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

Be It Rarely So Humble...

Using Big Frank's raytraced version of Jen's Salt and Pepper Shaker design, I recreated a simplified vector version.

I think it's cleaner, but then I'm a might predudiced.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

Be It Rarely So Humble...

Hi Gary,

I like your rendering. I tend to ignore reflection and see colour, highlight, and shadow. Only if someone brings it to my attention do I see the objects being reflected in shiny surfaces. So your image is more like how I see the world around me. Maybe that's why I've always had trouble making anything look like shiny things [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Soquili [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Sometimes "less is more".

Very attractive Gary! The Bolton-esque working technique has me daydreaming...

The perfect studio: Wouldn't it be great to have someone like Big Frank or Wayne K (or both?)standing by to slap together a quick 3d study model at a moment's notice. A professional photog on call would be nice too. It would also be nice to have a personal chef, a driver and one of these!

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

Looks great.
Goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or at least, texture map a cat :-)

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

Be It Rarely So Humble...

Gary,

The “rendering� you made in the tread about polished brass disks had some very sharply defined brown edges in them. I remember how striking that image was and how well it conveyed the shininess of the turned metal by reflecting and picking up the tones of the disk and its surroundings.

This latest effort takes that to new heights for me!

Bob C.

This image was done in trueSpace. I was going to do it in Xara, but am short of time and my point is that this was simple to achieve in trueSpace. I don't want to labour this 3D thing, but WayneK is right: there are more ways to skin a cat and people shouldn't shut their eyes to other apps if they provide solutions to specific requirements.

And of top of that, it looks the nuts! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Big Frank was
http://www.wognum.org/files/madewithxarax.gif

please no plastic Frank!

I ** HATE ** plastic. It makes everything so cheap, kills the value. The world is spoiled by plastic waste.

But the texture looks great.

jens

Sorry Jens, didn't mean to debase your excellent design concept! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, the next time I post a salt 'n pepper set to this forum will be when I have accomplished it in XaraX! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

(naturally, not wishing to give those Xara snobs an opportunity to eat their words, oh no, not me missus...)

TTFN

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Big Frank was
http://www.wognum.org/files/madewithxarax.gif

[This message was edited by Big Frank on May 10, 2001 at .]

Big Frank:

It looks very classy to me. So much so I thought the holder was made from quartz!

What do you think jens, is quartz a viable option for a holder?

Bob C.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> (naturally, not wishing to give those Xara snobs an opportunity to eat their words, oh no, not me missus...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose you think that by making your version bigger than mine, it is somehow better [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I love what is happening in the sides of the plastic. And the chome colors are rich and subtle.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

Be It Rarely So Humble...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I suppose you think that by making your version bigger than mine, it is somehow better <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um... well, I mean, yes! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Big Frank was
http://www.wognum.org/files/madewithxarax.gif

Now Boys! Everyone knows not to judge the xartist by the size of his shakers. (It's how shiny your shakers are that matters).

Keep buffing! Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

..but somewhere in the design / concept stage one simple fact has been overlooked....which is the salt and which is the pepper..normally the salt has a single hole and the pepper several. As great as your designs look (3D or Xara) as a consumer which is which?
Egg

Simple. Give each a test shake. If salt comes out, then it's a salt shaker. Likewise if pepper comes out, then it's a pepper shaker.

And if nothing comes out, it's an empty shaker.

No need to make life any harder than it already is, Eric :-)

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

Be It Rarely So Humble...

here's the XaraX version, (for Egg, just one hole for salt!) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Big Frank was
http://www.wognum.org/files/madewithxarax.gif

Hi guys,

it's great to watch all your attempts to modify, enhance, improve, texturize, render, raytrace etc the salt and pepper shakers, but - sorry to say this - none of you actually improved the product idea and product design.

Of course you can write books and render millions of images about the product - but the design idea behind the product will remain hidden.

In addition I have to mention that some of you didn't understand the concept:

01. people use more salt than pepper
02. thus the salt shaker MUST be the larger one
03. in addition, the two shakers differ in size and material
04. if you reduce the number of holes in the pepper shaker, you are going to repeat the same mistakes as gazillions of people before you.
The reason is quite obvious to a product or industrial designer who PLAYS and EXAMINES existing products BEFORE he starts his development.
I've researched that more than 70% of the people are not satisfied with the 'one hole' solution, because in many cases pepper grains differ in size, which results in the bare fact that one larger pepper grain (Murphy's Law) will congest the single hole, forcing the user to shake back and forth to get rid of the large grain (hoping this bug will strike the next user, but not him again).

Don't just look for the obvious - the solutions are in most cases hidden behind the scene and require a rock solid research and x-ray eyes.

BTW, you've focussed on the 'shell', the surface - which is only natural, because you are artists, illustrators, 3D freaks etc.

You won't guess how I mount the shakers on the caddy - this is the MOST important feature of this product, because once you come up with an outstanding product development and design you have to make sure it will look identical to the one people see in the advertising or on the shelf - which means the shakers will always have to be 'in line', so that the slanted top of the salt and pepper shaker always match.

In addition you have to develop a mechanism that prevents the shakers to drop off the caddy accidentially while being carried from the kitchen to the table and vice versa - without adding too many steps in the production process, and without destroying the smooth (visible) surface(s).

If you would have considered all variables, you would have discovered that the plastic or quartz caddy wouldn't be able to qualify for an elegant and STABLE solution (not to mention the manufacturing process and it's problems with these materials) - an extremely important factor for people who will spend up to US$ 100 for this massive, heavy weight design object...

Don't get me wrong - I am very impressed by the many solutions to present the object, be it in 2D or 3D. And I enjoy that you picked up the idea to show what's possible with different software packages. It's great to see you jumping in, because your interest in this object showed me that it is somewhat outstanding and meaningful for you. Which led me to the conclusion to contact a manufacturer to investigate the production possiblities, market acceptance, production costs, possible retail price and - of course - to finance the patents (plural because he has to patent it in every country where he wants to sell it...)

The manufacturer is excited, fascinate by the simple mounting solution. So am I. And while we were discussing the product, I added two other complimenting and matching objects to 'complete the product line' - now it's a complete set of design objects for the breakfast table.

Keep going!

jens

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> none of you actually improved the product idea and product design <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because we weren't trying to. This is the XaraX forum, not the Scrapheap Challenge forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> some of you didn't understand the concept <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It really very much depends upon what 'the concept' was. This thread started out as a design which you translated into a drawing and we all we were trying to do was draw it as well so that it looked good - we weren't trying to make the design any better - just your original artistic interpretation of it as a Xara drawing. It all started out with trying to show you that you hadn't quite got the chrome/brass effect right. In fact if I recall, everybody has complimented you on your unique and striking design, which nobody felt compelled to improve on.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The reason is quite obvious to a product or industrial designer who PLAYS and EXAMINES existing products BEFORE he starts his development <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're absolutely right, which is why it wasn't quite obvious to us mere Xartists, especially as all we were trying to do was draw the wretched things!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The manufacturer is excited, fascinate by the simple mounting solution <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's great news! I'd love to see the whole set you have designed - but this time I promise not to interfere, not one bit, not even a little bit. I will look but not touch... promise! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Big Frank was
http://www.wognum.org/files/madewithxarax.gif

jay (-> jens ! )

I don't think anybody missed the point. I could be wrong, but I think that everybody expressed their pleasure with your handsome design.

Some of us, did rise to the challenge of your rendering of brass and chrome, or gold and silver, and attempt--using your fine design as a model, to see if we could come up with a more realistic method of rendering metalic objects. And most of us learned something from the experience.

Perhaps we should have a contest to see who could come up with a better design for a salt and pepper shaker? :-)

Good luck with your design and I hope you make a million dollars.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

Be It Rarely So Humble...

Jens - thanks for bringing to the threads, discussion of the design itself. I think your points will help all to realize the amount of thought that goes into designing things. Things that look simple (usually) don't just happen.

I appreciate 'behind the scene looks' that express how a designer works and thinks. It is actually rare to get glimpses into those processes. Creativity is somewhat mysterious in our culture - insight into it seems to be very rare. One of the very best sites I've ever found for explaining a designers thoughts, by amazing coincidence, is by our friend Gary in regards logo design. I was enraptured when I first "discovered" those articles by Gary. I stayed up almost all night reading every one.

Regards, Ross

PS - Yens, I'm glad you have a way to keep the shakers aligned. I had worried about that! I imagined the couples who would get divorces as a result of one putting the shakers in the caddy "wrong" much to the aggravation of the other. Little things like that can drive some people nuts.

What's a Scrapheap?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You're absolutely right, which is why it wasn't quite obvious to us mere Xartists, especially as all we were trying to do was draw the wretched things! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which you did in a wonderful way - as I already said. It's simply fascinating to watch the solutions the members of this forum come up with.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> we weren't trying to make the design any better <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahem - the one hole version...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It all started out with trying to show you that you hadn't quite got the chrome/brass effect right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, absolutely correct, and isn't it wonderful what had been developed here to improve chrome and brass or gold effect? I mean it's quite tricky in 2D and 3D, and just posting variations from both worlds resulted in a fantastic brass and chrome effect to be used in X.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In fact if I recall, everybody has complimented you on your unique and striking design, which nobody felt compelled to improve on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. And as I said, because you jumped in it was a signal for me to continue - if artists and designers and illustrators like an object, it must be something that has a value to them.

And no, I don't blame any of you picking up this object and playing with it. But to be honest, it was a real shock for me to see a **plastic** version of the caddy. But that's only because I don't like consumer products made of plastic at all (even if form follows function, I am convinced there are other materials to work with).

Overall I have to say that this forum is excellent. Nobody is perfect, so all of us strive to be better. In addition, this forum was the spark to develop this object, because I didn't like the salt & pepper shakers in one of the postings with the corn & butter. When I looked at the shakers I thought: hell, those glass/plastic shakers with a chrome top are still on the market. Next thought: that's it - the next product. Endless scetches and research folllowed. The first drawing in X was the next step. BTW, as much as I love CAD and 3D apps, no other app can beat the speed of X: just drop a bitmap texture to an object and - viola - you have a rough impression on the look. Of course not with the correct perspective, but you are able to evaluate pretty soon if the look is what you had in mind. In X it's in real time compared to a 3D app, where you always have to wait for the raytracing (and set up the lighting, floor, background, environment etc) (yes, I know, I have a very sloooooow and outdated machine :-)) )

See what I mean?

So this is a very positive effect - and I think you will agree.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'd love to see the whole set you have designed - but this time I promise not to interfere, not one bit, not even a little bit. I will look but not touch... promise! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hm, I am not sure if the X forum is the correct place or if the 3D Graphics forum would be the better place. Sooooo, I decided to post it right 'in between' on neutral ground: table objects

The third object has not yet been included - didn't have the time to render it...and the spoon does not belong to the set :-). And no, the textures are not correct - we've modified them to a matte finish. I've seen the surfaces on the original material, but don't have the slightes idea on how to generate them in 3D. I researched several 3D forums and texture sites, but no one had a solution for this surface <sigh>

jens

Gary,

seems you got me wrong. The language barrier is harder to break then the sound barrier :-)

But I don't think I will make millions of dollars with it - the market chances are somewhat limited. After the manufacturer explained the production process to me, I knew it will be a niche product. To make millions you need a mass product :-)) which needs upgrades to eliminate the old bugs while implantating new ones (does it sound like Microsoft? Ooooops).

Fun aside - if I will make a tiny fraction of it, I can be lucky. However, ** IF ** I will make a million, I will sponsor a meeting of all active forum members - sounds like a plan?

jens

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ** IF ** I will make a million, I will sponsor a meeting of all active forum members - sounds like a plan? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A cruise would be nice! We could talk shop around the buffet tables

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

Ross,

thanks for the link to the Logo Design!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I imagined the couples who would get divorces as a result of one putting the shakers in the caddy "wrong" much to the aggravation of the other. Little things like that can drive some people nuts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point! But I doubt that this statement means we would have less divorces if we would have more good designed products :-))

However, your thought led me to another idea: why not make a short movie / slapstick about such a situation??

Holy moly, I wish I could turn off my brain at least for ONE weekend per year...why does it ** always ** generate new ideas? Why can't I just be a dumb couch potatoe from time to time, having three sixpacks while watching a video? (I don't drink at all, and I don't watch TV at all, and the last time I was in a cinama had been decades ago). Maybe I should start drinking first to paralyze my memory :-)

jens

Solved your million-dollar problem, Jens!

You put two versions on the market - one is the beautiful chrome and brass original, the "up-market" version, and then you hit the market with these much cheaper but just as stylish acrylic versions. BMW sell millions of the '3' series because they reflect the quality and craftsmanship of the '7' series. People who drive '3' series beemers are really '7' series wannabees. People who buy your acrylic cruet set are really chrome and brass wannabees and as soon as they can afford it they'll upgrade! The acrylic set, aimed at a mass market, will allow you to raise awareness of the metal set that marketing the metal set on its own could never achieve!

Man you're gonna be rich, rich, rich! Hey, guys, the beer's are on Jens! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Big Frank was
http://www.wognum.org/files/madewithxarax.gif

Frank - I think you are right on the mark with your marketing idea. Besides, by marketing the acrylic version you preempt those snakes who will infringe on Yens patent rights.

Although it lacks the purity of the original - perhaps in plastic there could be a "truck-stop" version which incorporates a holder for the napkins and/or menu.

Jens - if you investigate patents further is it possible to not specify the materials and perhaps include multiple variations in one application?
It would be a shame if you patent the metal design but then others can steel your design with plastic, glass, or even wood versions (bent plywood caddy). (Please try modeling wood versions, Frank, Wayne, et al.)

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

Good God guys,

life is tough with you.

First of all thanks a lot for your encouraging words. However, since ** I ** don't have the funds for the patents, the manufacturer will care for all the hassle with it. And yes, we've already talked about giving a licence to some cheap Chinese manufacturers with limited markets. Seems the US is a great market for plastic stuff :-) -> plastic money, plastic salt & pepper shakers, plastic truck stop napkin holders, plastic food :-))))

But...if you want to hit the market, you definitely need the high end segment first, then let the crap flow in. The first wave will / must be the cash cow to return the investment, and the second market will be the mass market.

However, the last decision will be on my end. And because I don't like plastic or acryl at all, I don't think the cheap version will hit the market the next decade.

I look at it this way: a good product design inherits a style, even a lifestyle. That means if you hit the market with a cheap product, everybody will perceive it as being cheap, representing something cheap and worthless. Without the desire to posess it.

It's like the comparison with the BMW - everybody wants to have the 7 series, but can't afford it. But imagine if the 7 series wouldn't be on the market, just the lousy 3 series - no one of the upper market would ever consider to order a 7 if it would be a new 'add on' to the fleet. Instead, they would consider it as a 'cheap' product. See what I mean? A Mercedes owner would consider it a step down, not up.

Anyway, I like the acrylic rendering. Just about to be fantastic - if it wouldn't be acryl.

And now the ultimate kick: I talked to a scientist if it would be possible to grow crystals / a large quarzit under artificial conditions to form the shape of the caddy. His opinion: yes, it is possible. However, the drawback would be that it would have too little stability in it's structure.

Forming it from leaded glass would be possible as well, but it would lack the robust material properties as stainless steel will offer (just imagine the nightmare if the glass would drop on the tiles in the kitchen - I would have to pay gazillions because of the product liablity. I would agree to use glass if I would be a lawyer :-)) )

As my brother puts it: better to make millions with cheap crap then to starve with a fantastic design.

Unfortunately he couldn't prove for how long he will survive with this mentality (currently his wants to terminate his cheap product lines, because there will always be a manufacturer who can produce that stuff cheaper).

I think it's hard to beat experience in the production process. So the patents will cover the shape and material(s), and because there are only 3 manufacturers for the stainless steel versions, I don't think it will be copied too fast.

Let's wait and see what will happen the next 3 months ;-))

jens

Jens - you make a good point about quality first but unless the design becomes "famous" the people who buy the inexpensive plastic version probably wont even be aware of the high-end product. The two types of consumers don't shop at the same stores. I suppose it is good at this point to give the design its due course and provide it the chance to be famous. As you say, the cheap stuff can always come later.

I just saw your "eggcup" design in the link you provided above. It looks great too! I've been trying to figure out what the third design element you mention will be. Perhaps a toothpick holder???

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

Jens:: "(I don't drink at all, and I don't watch TV at all, and the last time I was in a cinama had been decades ago). Maybe I should start drinking first to paralyze my memory :-)"

Good for you about the non-TV - me neither! Nor do I listen to news or read any newspapers. Life's too short to waste it on stuff like that. But you don't DRINK?!?!?!?! An artist and designer - and a German even - who's a damn teetotaler??? Jeez. Pathetic. Come up here to Norway somtime, and I'll pour you full of my highly illegal homemade moonshine - to make a man of you! :-)

And when you're all sloshed, I'll make you sign over your rights to your wonderful tablething design! I REALLY want a set of those - keep us posted about further progress, please.

K

Jens: "As my brother puts it: better to make millions with cheap crap then to starve with a fantastic design."

I challenge that cheap crap philosophy.

First, virtually no one who makes fantastic work will ever starve (and spare me stories of Van Gogh & co. please, I've heard it all before). Like truth, fantastic work will out, i.e., it will eventually succeed to *some* degree, even if it doesn't attain mass market profitability.

Second, someone who does fantastic work, whether it succeds in the market or not, will get something no cynical maker of cheap crap can ever get: self-respect.

This is my philosophy: If god Himself ascended on me out of his Heaven and boomed at me that I would never ever make a cent from my painting and writing, I would tell Him to get the hell out of my way - so I could spend my little share of eternity on my painting and writing.


K

Klaus,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Come up here to Norway somtime, and I'll pour you full of my highly illegal homemade moonshine - to make a man of you! :-) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll bring - illegaly - some good stuff, so first we have a great dinner, then lets get drunk - this is the only exception for me to drink :-)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>someone who does fantastic work, whether it succeds in the market or not, will get something no cynical maker of cheap crap can ever get: self-respect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's it. Thanks a lot for writing it for me. Self respect is - at least in contrast to my brother - very important. OK, he made millions, but now he had to learn his lesson the hard way - possibly ending up losing a lot.

Cheers & have a great weekend - all of you who participated in this thread :-)

jens