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I had nothing against people voting for the XaraXone. It was the unethical tactics of your ‘click-here’ posts that got to me. I have lost count on how many times I have said that here at Talkgraphics and in private emails. Did I not even provide you with tips, and a link to a CGI script that would make it easier for you to implement an easier, and more effective linking strategy to Graphics.com?
As well I would not have bothered writing this had you not felt compelled to also insult me personally in your "It's a new week :-)" post (omitting my name makes it no less insulting). I’m truly and utterly disgusted! Please, remove everything that has my name on it at the XaraXone - anything else would be just plain wrong!
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
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I had nothing against people voting for the XaraXone. It was the unethical tactics of your ‘click-here’ posts that got to me. I have lost count on how many times I have said that here at Talkgraphics and in private emails. Did I not even provide you with tips, and a link to a CGI script that would make it easier for you to implement an easier, and more effective linking strategy to Graphics.com?
As well I would not have bothered writing this had you not felt compelled to also insult me personally in your "It's a new week :-)" post (omitting my name makes it no less insulting). I’m truly and utterly disgusted! Please, remove everything that has my name on it at the XaraXone - anything else would be just plain wrong!
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
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And, I did not take it as an insult that you and Wayne and Peter did not choose to inform me of your plans for an alternative conference. Although I think it might have been respectful to do so.
I was under the understanding that we were all helping each other in the Xara community.
As I have told you in numerous private e-mail messages, having the Xara Xone appear high in the top sites is important for the Xara Xone but it is also important for the Xara community as it tends to bring the curious to the Xara Xone where my hope is they will discover Xara X and maybe keep this fine product from falling off the face of the earth.
Whether you use a CGI script to score high on the charts, or ask people who use Xara and participate in these conferences to vote for their favorite program is about the same the way I see it. I help people every day in these conferences and I ask only that if they are of a mind to, that they support the Xara Xone, a free Xara resource.
I have always valued your friendship, humor, and tremendous talent. And I will honor your request to remove your excellent contributions to the Xara Xone if this is what you really want.
Gary
Gary Priester
Moderator Person
Click to make The Xara Xone #1
<a href="http://www.gwpriester.com">
www.gwpriester.com </a>
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Did you read what you wrote in your original post? (OR did you edit your post again?) Perhaps you already forget the original "controversial" 'click-here' thread that you first edited, and then later deleted?
Your quote: "Whether you use a CGI script to score high on the charts, or ask people who use Xara and participate in these conferences to vote for their favorites program is about the same the way I see it."
--- The CGI script is not a cheat (again you insult me!) I was trying to HELP YOU link to any place of your choosing/and easily link somewhere else if you changed your mind. The script is still running on my Web site... it is the 'rand_link' script from Matt's Script Archive... no artificial clicks there. Go and have a look and see how I use it...
Gary quote: "And, I did not take it as an insult that you and Wayne and Peter did not choose to inform me of your plans for an alternative conference."
---Sorry, I was not aware that I needed YOUR permission to create another forum where Xara X can be discussed. Pixelparity.org is just an additional Xara X resource… nothing more, nothing less. Did you read Peter Duggan’s last post at all?!
I'm in shock of your discontent, and your insinuations! Yes, please do remove my content from XaraXone – go back and look at your posts – then look at your last one, then ask yourself how you could do anything else…
I have nothing against Talkgraphics! It is an amazing place filled with amazing people! You are trying to make this a Talkgraphics/Pixelparity.org issue – THIS IS A “click here!” + your latest insults issue.
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
[This message was edited by Risto Klint on March 19, 2003 at 19:23.]
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Risto, It really does seem to me that you're over-reacting here. I see you taking insult where none was intended. Certainly Gary never implied that you needed his permission to start another Xara-related forum, but he does deserve to have been notified of your plans.
I sure hope you two can find a way to come to some agreeable arrangement which will allow your material to remain on the XaraXone.
Let cooler heads prevail.
.joroho.
http://www.joroho.com/initials.gif
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. . . from under the shroud of lurkdom to say something here.
If there is a question of ethics in Gary's use of this forum to promote the XaraXone -- and this is a very debatable question -- I consider it to be of a microscopically trivial level of importance when compared to the issue of people getting along with each other and enjoying these forums, and life in general.
Risto, I don't know you except through what I have seen of you here at the TG forums, so that is all I have to work with in trying to understand what has been going on with you. I am quite frankly a bit concerned about you, and it is out of concern that I am writing this post.
You seem to have gone from being a very productive, humourous, easy-going, helpful and positive member of this on-line community, to being a seemingly rather oversensitive and volatile personality, with an often negative outlook. You appear to have made some rash decisions recently, acting out of emotions whose intensity is far out of proportion to the events that appear to have set them off.
We are all human here, and as such our behaviour is frequently irrational and hard to understand or even to accept. But even the worst of the behaviour I have witnessed in these forums is -- when looked at with some objectivity -- just about totally harmless. What can be harmful is a lack of willingness to be tolerant of our differences and to resist the temptation to take offense, even when offense is intended, and especially when it isn't.
So, please, bring on the cooler heads, and show us the Risto (and the Gary) we have come to know and love.
Sincerely,
Glen
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I find it very sad that it seems the PixelParity site and Talkgraphics cannot exist side by side.
I value the XaraXone and Talkgraphics greatly, they have certainly encouraged me to produce images that would never have been finished, (or even started), had there not been this terrific resourse to show them off and inspire new efforts.
Pixelparity is another resource that will encourage new images, and lets face it to post the old ones again, in order to hopefully reach a few new potential xara converts.
The Web is a big place, more than enough room for all, mutualy destructive 'in' fighting in what I assumed was a tight mutualy respectful community will drive people away completly and with these resources abandoned Xara will wither and fade along with them as Xara isn't doing much to promote itself.
Its sad, but from my point of view there will hardly be any point in having a connection to the internet if these resources disappear.
derek
[This message was edited by masque on March 20, 2003 at 00:29.]
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joroho - did you read the original post or the self-censored one?
GroWeb - I appreciate your concern for me! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Perhaps, you just missed the self-censored (Like the last one...) and deleted threads?
Your quote: "You seem to have gone from being... etc..." I guess you missed the other posts around here... TG and PP are not the only forums on the web. It might come as a shock to you but there is also something called: "helping out in your community..."
Derek - What can I say... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
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I value everyone who participates in these forums, and every single one of you have contributed something of use. It would be a shame to see that all erased to help no one further or brighten anybody elses day. If you like the site, do everything you can to help it, and reason problems out, just forget about some things...
my 2 cents
Steve Newport
-My Gallery-
-Featured Artist 2002-
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... be more than a slight confusion here...
Talkgraphics and the XaraXone are not the same websites. (I know it might seem that way.) To the people who sent me emails (and Steve?) I never asked anything to be deleted from Talkgraphics.
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
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Risto
Please wait a week and then e-mail me and let me know if you really want me to remove your excellent contributions from the Xara Xone.
If this is what you really want, I will reluctantly do it.
Gary
Gary Priester
Moderator Person
Click to make The Xara Xone #1
<a href="http://www.gwpriester.com">
www.gwpriester.com </a>
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Gary - another option is for you to take the time to really think about the ethics of the "click here" promotion strategy. Of course you are right about the nice referal benefits of the XaraXone ranking highly at graphics.com - that's not the part to think about. Rather think about the somewhat artificial means being used to boost the ranking and what do you think was the original intention behind Chris' including the rankings on his site. Others have repeatedly told you they believe the "click here" promotion strategy is unethical. Why do you think that is?
I personally side with those uncomfortable with the strategy. I certainly don't see the benefits as a justification. Either it is ethical or it isn't.
I wish Chris would just can the whole rankings feature. I realize he probably has a benefit in even hollow hits in that he can tell his advertisers his site is getting so many hits. Likewise, I understand that the XaraXone's sponsors probably like to hear that the site is getting lots of hits. Those aspects should not override the underlying ethical question.
Regards, Ross
<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By Risto Klint:
GroWeb - I appreciate your concern for me! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Perhaps, you just missed the self-censored (Like the last one...) and deleted threads?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It really is concern, and I am taking your smiley as an indication that you realize that. And no, I don't think I missed any of the threads that have come up here, though I may have missed the censored part of a self-censored post. However, I think the self-censoring was an well-intentioned attempt at damage control. If Gary were adamant about ideas he had expressed, he would not have censored them. Try to see positive motives in his actions rather than assuming ill intent. (This is what I meant by being positive rather than negative.) And even where the intent may be wrong, rise above it; why get your nose out of joint? You know that Gary's general pattern around here is very positive and helpful. Allow him to be wrong once in a while. Agree to disagree, and move on.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By Risto Klint:
Your quote: "You seem to have gone from being... etc..." I guess you missed the other posts around here... TG and PP are not the only forums on the web. It might come as a shock to you but there is also something called: "helping out in your community..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know that TG and PP are not the only forums on the web; but what has that to do with what we are discussing? And, as I mentioned above, I think I have caught the other posts around here.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but your comment about the "something called: 'helping out in your community'" seems like an angry attempt to make me feel bad about myself. Speaking as a person who does a great deal of volunteer work, and whose profession is a not-very-well-paid social service, I can assure you that you are wrong about this. Web forums are not the only form of community to which one can contribute. And you will perhaps notice that my posts in these forums -- including the two in this thread -- have invariably been efforts to contribute constructively to this community.
Getting back to the point: how come you're taking such umbrage in response to Gary's actions? There are bigger fish to fry. And besides, it looks from here as though he has recognized his mistakes and is trying to build bridges (though there is probably more he could do in this direction). The actions on your part that have concerned me include a decision in the recent past to pack up and boycott this forum (a decision you reversed in response to others' expressions of concern), and the decision to have all reference to you removed from the XaraXone. These actions stem from emotions that seem rather out of proportion to the events that have apparently set them off. What's up?
Glen
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I respect your opinion.
I have removed the New Week thread and the Click Here on my signature.
Gary
Gary Priester
Moderator Person
<a href="http://www.gwpriester.com">
www.gwpriester.com </a>
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I do appreciate your concern.
More than enough have already been said on this issue, don't you think?
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>by Risto Klint:
More than enough have already been said on this issue, don't you think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely!
Glen
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Oh for heaven's sake... must have been a full moon recently eh?
Well, laundry duty calls and I can't do it here so...
Happy Creat'n all
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Ya, let's move forward. Gary's "frame challenge" thread still has lots of room in it for more postings!
Regards to all,
Ross
<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>
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by Ross Macintosh
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wish Chris would just can the whole rankings feature.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What were we doing before all this started up, huh? Being a happy little (large, lurkers included http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif ) group of folks sharing, laughing and learning and discussing. Now it's a little war of words, hurt feelings, mis communication and so forth and so on.
I for one would love for all this to just go away and for there to be a new way to support the Xone that all can agree upon.
Pixelparity is a fine forum and I have seen some new works and old (Derek you know who you are! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif ) and all it does is inspire me. I think that it is another fine way to support and get the word out about XaraX.
Of course the real way for this to happen is for Xara Ltd. to get off of their proverbial @sses and do the work themselves and leave the communities to do what they do best (mentioned above) and as a result of the communities existence promote and build a stonger user base by just being there to help out the newbies and have galleries and all that good stuff.
In what I am getting from all of this mess is that it seems that Gary has taken this upon himself to promote this software anyway he can and I don't blame him, no one wants to see XaraX fade away but if this promoting is causing rifts in the community and the community is split what good are we doing for each other?? Xara Ltd. should see what is happening here and help get the word out by creating flyers and promotions that are not just on the web. Get the software out into the stores and so forth and so on. This lack of support for it's own flag ship product and their lack in good common business practices in promoting and distributing their own fricken product disgusts me to no end. It's not your job Gary or any one here in the forums, it's Xara Ltd responsibility. It's neither your fault or Risto's, it's Xara Ltd's for their lack of promotion and distribution and making excuses for them that "they've always done business like this" well then it's time for a change or go away!!
This sort of stuff turns me off completely. I admire both of you so much. And it's just a shame that this goes on but the simplest solution would be for Chris to put the Kibosh on the whole rankings feature seeing as Xara Ltd. isn't about to make things right in their own way by doing what they should be doing.
If Gary really wants to promote the XaraXone then perhaps he and Thomas needs to sit down and find a way to include a little button at the top of the page so that it's non intrusive to the rest of the forum that would take the person to the Xone where a button resides there to then take the user to Graphics.com to click away.
I'm not sure I even like that but it's something.
Just my humble .02¢
Richard http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
---Wolff On The Prowl---
[This message was edited by RAMWolff on March 20, 2003 at 10:46.]
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You know, if Xara placed that link to Graphics.com on their main site, they'd generate far more traffic than anything TalkGraphics itself could ever generate. Seems like a win-win situation to me. Why not encourage them to give it a try? Failing that, they could run a banner on the top of this page -- either way, then Gary wouldn't have to constantly "rally the troops".
Best wishes to all!
Chris Dickman
