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Whomever...whatever group of insane fanatics...leveled the World Trade Centers, crashed the Pentagon with stolen commercial airliners...might be pretty smart, 'cause this was a well-planned attack.
But we Americans WILL find the parties responsible, and they WILL pay with their blood, their country and their souls.
NOBODY DOES THIS TO THE UNITED STATES.
Gary David Bouton
Whomever...whatever group of insane fanatics...leveled the World Trade Centers, crashed the Pentagon with stolen commercial airliners...might be pretty smart, 'cause this was a well-planned attack.
But we Americans WILL find the parties responsible, and they WILL pay with their blood, their country and their souls.
NOBODY DOES THIS TO THE UNITED STATES.
Gary David Bouton
I just hope everyone makes sure that they know who "They" is first.
After the Oklahoma City bombing, a local mosque recieved bomb threats. This is one of my dear friends house of worship. This is a friend who fed me when I was broke. I felt very ashamed that that happened, especially after the truth was out and it turned out to be Americans who did it.
In other words, people - lets keep our heads.
Sharon P.
www.fischerpassmoredesign.com
Agreed. I'm not about to go on a lynching for the murderers of tens of thousands of Americans... and others... in one fell swoop. We need to know who's responsible, and let the world decide.
I'm sorry for the tone of my first message (right after it happened), but I'm an American (a liberal ACLU-type one, FYI), and my country has been scarred by knaves. The bottom third of the biggest city in America has been wiped out.
I have friends in NYC and the telephone lines are dead, as are the cel phones. People all over our country are being asked to donate blood at their Red Cross. I used to live in this town that's now a mass of sorrow and confusion.
Here's some pictures of what happened, and a picture of what's left on the lower part of Manhattan.
Gary
[This message was edited by Gary David Bouton on September 11, 2001 at 11:48.]
I want to trade my lousy passport for a Greencard and join the forces to slice the bastards who initiated this terror.
Is it the time to use the nuclear bomb to erase all moslem and fanatics?
If America needs support, count me in.
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://jens.highspeedweb.net
Jens,
Believe me as you are my brother in the brotherhood of civilized mankind--
I have artifical hips...and yet I wanted to limp right down to my local recruiting station and do the obvious thing...enlist.
But as my anger turned to tears, and I realize that I've been spending all day watching the gruesomeness over and over--America was founded upon tolerance. And with tolerance comes prudent thought. We have the destructive capability to fry the entire Earth 32 times over. Obviously, this is not a time to act without prudence--fair and calm judgement. The perpetrators WILL be found...there's literally no place on Earth to hide, you know? And when they are caught, I know I would not feel avenged if they were hung by their goodies for around a week in the desert. Nothing can bring back the thousands who were killed. No words can reach the grief-stricken mothers and children when daddy or mommy doesn't come home tonight.
Right now, Joe Bynam, someone I really respect and should have been US President a long time ago, is telling Capital Hill that tomorrow should operate just like today for America. We don't lay down and die OR bomb who we *think* committed this atrocity.
Already, the world...I mean the fucking WORLD, you know? has condemned this act(s).
You know what I'm going to do? I'm going out tomorrow and go to a hardware store and buy a flagpole and dig as deep in my front yard as I need to, with my bare hands if necessary, and lift the American flag to half-mast as our sign of national grievance.
And I don't think it's going to fly at full mast for a long time, friends.
"All we are saying, is give Peace a chance."
My Best,
Gary
Gary, I too have lived in New York, and felt like my hometown had been hit. I lived five blocks from the Empire State Bulding.
I have a huge flagpole and a US flag here in my house in Sweden. And the US flag has been hoisted half-mast ever since I heard of this horror. It's the first time ever I have done that, and hope I will never have to hoist it half-way again.
K
Hi Klaus & all--
The images are still streaming in from the news services, and I'm getting a little nauseus now viewing the carnage and near carnage.
I was an art director for a good part of the 70s and 80s in NYC (17 years all told), and I felt when I left for upstate (I'm a 5 hour drive from Manhattan) that I had left my mark...that for all the culture I absorbed, I left a little or myself there. You never *really* leave New York, as they say.
Fortunately, we have one of the best microsurgery centers in the world here, and helicopters are shipping the most badly damaged people up here for treatment. Wounds from being crushed were the worst, and they'll get expert treatment here.
A little piece of me is crying tonight (that same piece, I expect, that never left NYC), me and my wife, safe in the suburbs where everything is wonderful, and I cannot feel more detached from my "safety".
And I can't make this awful scar stop hurting.
-g
Ok, I just got done writing a very hatefull message, upon reading it again I figured it would do no good to America or the rest of the world, so this is what I have to say on this tragedy
I will agree with you all. Thinking and watching about this simply makes me sick and sends chills down my spine, it has me and I'm sure the rest of the world completely stunned and scared. I was in school while this happened and watched the live footage from our room. Everyone was very confused and had no idea what was going on.
I was seriously thinking the time had come and God was going to sweep us up to heaven for the time had arrived, and it may yet happen soon, who knows!
I'm not very proud of this, but I hope those responsible for this TERRIBLE act pays with their life, they deserve it.
But all thoughts of revenge and hatred aside, let us all just join together as a community, and a family and pray for those who were there, families of those, America, and the rest of the world. If there's nothing more we need at a time like this, it's unnity: there's nothing better than the support of friends and even those you don't know. I pray to God to help us through this time of trouble, and to make those responsible pay.
Amen
Steve Newpor
I grew up on long Island. My father was a fireman. His best friend was a fireman. His friend is retired now but his two sons are NYFD. One was supposed to be off today (he went in obviously) but one was on duty at the time, just in time to be among the first on the scene, after the plane crash but before the bulding collapse. At the moment he is missing. His father, my Dad,s friend has gone into the city and he isn't coming home till he finds him.
I am very afraid right now, but somehow it scares me even more when I read that jens g.r. benthien writes:
"Is it the time to use the nuclear bomb to erase all moslem and fanatics?"
I say to you, jen, that this is the EXACT same thinking that these murderers have displayed. to judge an entire religious group on the behavior of a handfull of crazies is religious persecution. This country was founded by people who were escaping that type of evil. They came here for religious freedom and I will support other's religious freedom with my last breath.
Let me point out also, that if these criminals were in fact, moslem, they sure didn't spend too much time in their mosque. Ghandi said something about how people fighting should spend alot more time on their prayer mats.
I, for one, am going to pray alot, for Americans, and for my friend brandon who is missing, and also for the thousands of imigrants who must be living in terror right now.
Sharon P.
www.fischerpassmoredesign.com
I just don't know what to say. I feel for the people of NY and the Pentagon. And let's not forget the 266+ people that where on the 4 planes. They seem to get lost in the horror of the events.
These people had to realize what was going to happend and could not do anything to stop it. Thier last moments, lived in fear and terror knowing their deaths were going to cause the deaths of thousands of others.
I pray for those lives lost, and mostly for the ones that are left behind to morn the lost of love ones.
I hope the people that are responsible realize that they have signed their death warrants. But I am afaird they do not care.
--Randy
Just wanted to say how horrified I am at what has happened......words escape me.
Stu.
First my prayers for all the people who have suffered loss and who are helping out.
It has been an unthinkable terror by whichever group be it muslims or christians or whatever, and they should be punished.
*"Is it the time to use the nuclear bomb to erase all moslem and fanatics?"*
Why are you putting the blame on ALL the muslims for something done by perhaphs a group who also happen to be muslim. This is very insulting and offencive to the muslims. We muslims do not belong to the same group infect have nothing to do with them.
When criminal act is done why point to muslims as a whole, noone says it was done by christians or whatever, they name the group. All muslims do not belong to the terrorist group!
Yes in time like this lets do something to help.This is a great tragedy!
Niloufer
First of all I would like to tell you that I am shattered in my believes. I had tears in my eyes when I watched what happened, because I didn't have the slightest chance to help on location or to stop the terror.
The WTC still will be my personal symbol for freedom, facing the Statue of Liberty, my symbol for a free world. I lived there. Decades ago. It resembled the spirit that made me move the path - my path. Always connected to the Americans.
As you might know, I am a German. My father had been imprisoned in Russia in WWII. They tortured him. They ruined his health. They broke his will. It was a wonder that he survived. My mother had to flee her home country. And I was born in the debris of the war. Raised and educated in Germany and America, educated to stand up for what I believe.
Sharon, Ghandi was not a moslem. I admire him, and his proclamations still sound in my ears as if it was yesterday.
Panfer, the moslems have spread so much pain all over the world, it's time for a change. Why do I say this? Here is my answer:
Being a German according to my lousy passport, I am blamed for what 'my parents' have done to the Jewish people in WW II (see above why they couldn't have done it). No, not decades ago, the blaming continues even today, even though my parents couldn't have changed anything - they have been victims themselves. People always tell me the previous German generation would have had a chance to eliminate Hitler - they didn't. At least not my parents. And the Jewish are still requesting 'reparations' from Germany - today! From ** ALL ** Germans, even from me, who was born after that nightmare. Who lost his father far too early.
So let me express what ** I ** feel right now. I've lost some close friends in a fanatic attack initiated by moslems. I survived. My opinion is based on a personal experience. If the moslems can't solve the problem of the fanatics themselves, the civilized world has the duty to solve this problem once and forever.
If you should be a moslem, it would be a great gesture to stand up and speak out loud to nail down the initiators of the terror. But in my humble opinion it's the moslemic belief that they have to stick together like one single family. I have seen so much HATE in their eyes, experienced hostile events and situations that I had to raise that question yesterday. I have seen the coverage of moslems ** celebrating ** the assaults, dancing in the streets, singing, chanting, giving applause - standing ovations for an act of unbelievable terror.
See what I mean? It all depends on what you have experienced yourself.
But please don't get me wrong - I don't want to discuss religion here. Keep it like Ghandi used to do it if you are honest. But now it's time to eliminate the terrorists. And if you are serious, you will join or support the forces.
Let's pray for the lost souls, let's pray for the people who lost friends, parents, children, relatives in this assault. Let's pray for America, let's support it and give it the strength to stand up against the terror, let's pray for the freedom and the free world. And let's pray that this incident won't put too much harm on the free trade, business and economics of the world - all of us would suffer.
In our garden the US flag is on half-mast. I have been blamed for presenting the American flag in Germany, but I didn't give a sh..t on it. As long as I will have the powers in me I will stand up and speak out loud, fighting for FREEDOM, fighting for the American Dream on a lonely outpost.
My symbols have been destroyed, but not my heart, my body, my soul. Take it for granted that I will struggle and fight for a better future - whatever religious group might have been involved in yesterday's attack.
Stand up for the right to live, stand up to protect the freedom. Most people take the freedom for granted. But yesterdays assaults pulled them back into the cruel reality, initiated by moslems. Yes, I point to this group, and now it's their turn to track down the initiators, because they host them.
As long as the world will blame 'the Germans' for what they have done in WW II with the Jewish people, I will blame 'the moslems' for what happened yesterday. Until they will deliver the heads of the group that is responsible for the attack on silver tablets to the civilized world.
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://jens.highspeedweb.net
I was going to refrain from posting...posting ANYWHERE, on the numerous forums and online groups that I frequent. But I must say, it's equally sad to see so many people turning to anger and hate. It wasn't a religious group that did this. The fault does not fall on terrorists. The fact is, humans did this. We are all responsible for this tragedy. But, as a race, we naturally look for something other than ourselves to blame...
First of all, I must disagree with Earl. "We all" didn't do this, Earl...come ON. I know that *I* didn't do this, not in my wildest dreams.
But I'm not writing to take sides today:
I am sorry that I dragged this forum into heated, opposing opinions about an act of war posed upon the American people. You don't take out the Army's HQ in the Pentagon and call it a "terrorist assault".
I am angry and I am grieving at the same time. It's sort of like, "retribution, yes", but "revenge, no." What do we stand for if the great nation of the United States suddenly throws down the Consitution to be run over in slime; what happens if we mourn and mourn and nothing gets accomplished in this great Nation? Answer: then we have allowed the perpetraitors to succeed: they wanted to disgrace architectural symbols of greatness in our country (and idiology is all about symbols), and by the way, kill a few thousand people, but they forget that we all carry America in our hearts. We are a great nation because of our people, not because of some carved granite. We burned the flag in protest of that meat-grinder for our American youth in Vietnam. How great a country this is to recognize that burning an American flag does *nothing* to America. America is a dream, and it turned into a nightmare yesterday.
I am by no means done with my anger and suffering...I have an appointment shortly to plant a flag in my front yard.
BUT--
I love this forum and have even made friends on this forum, and I'd like to remind all of us that this forum is terrific, and even perhaps if we got back to discussions of modeling, we can still do this while aching over our dearly lost ones. If you disagree, I'll understand, but this calamity has got my lungs filled with tears, and I need a break, and so do others before someone goes out and kills whomever they think is responsible.
For right now, can we all simply agree on the following?
1.)Tens of thousands of people of all nationalities were killed in an act borne out of fanaticism.
2.)Palastine showed pretty poor taste in cheering over the news.
3.)It is a fact today that flight manuals (IOW, how to fly a plane) were found at Logan Airport, and they were not written in English.
4.)I am as ashamed at the rascism in this country as Jens is of having to live his life under the shadow of Nazism.
5.)We as a people will probably never feel vindicated, even after the gang is rounded up by the Feds. We will always hurt a little.
6.)We need to show the world that there have been three, not two, cradles of civilization, and America is the third. We are CIVILIZED, no matter how much you want to kill someone from a fanatic sect.
7.)Somewhere, some people are expecting us to lay down and die over this event. *I* will not oblige them. I am going to get back to my writing and my teaching ASAP, but never forget yesterday.
8.)I pray that this will never happen again, and that Congress takes measures to ensure that the largely Republican House doesn't beg us all on for more dollars for the military, vend hate in hopes of placating us all, and that this incident does not swing the delicate balance of our country's politics.
...and I hope it is made public, REAL SOON, that plans, contractors and architects are underway designing a new World Trade Center.
Can we possibly put a different spin on today, unlike yesterday, only if to take emotional refuge for a while?
Sincerely,
Gary David Bouton
Gary@GaryDavidBouton.com
Free education! The Writings Web site
and the updated GaryWorld Gallery is pretty okay, too.
[This message was edited by Gary David Bouton on September 12, 2001 at 08:31.]
Dear Gary,
I'd love to take another spin but I have to ask jens a question.
I have to ask because if I don't I will never be able to look my muslim friends in the face again.
I will never be able to look into Hamida's eye again. She is my friend from Afganistan who, after her daughter had been playing at my house and told her my refrigerator was empty, decided to include me in her Ramadan holiday.
Ramadan is a month of fasting. People fast till sunset for a month and, after dark, share dinner with their neighbors. They have a kind of pot luck thing.
Now, muslims in this country don't normally impose their religious holidays on others, but that year, my lovely, sweet friend appeared at my back door every day that month with a huge, steaming plate of lamb, rice, homemade bread etc....This wonderful friend fed my kids - the idea that she would ever hurt anyone is ludicrous.
I would never be able to look into Saied's eyes again. Saied is my friend from Iran, who lent me $600.00 so I could go to my father's funeral. He escaped from Iran after the Ayatolah's regime killed his brother. He loves to cook, fixes vaccuum cleaners and quite often giggles, it's kind of cute. Him kill people - NO WAY!
Now, Jens, you said:
"As long as the world will blame 'the Germans' for what they have done in WW II with the Jewish people, I will blame 'the moslems' for what happened yesterday. Until they will deliver the heads of the group that is responsible for the attack on silver tablets to the civilized world."
Is it wrong or is it right? Pick one.
People are people. They all want a good life. Most are not involved in politics. Most just want a good life, good things for their children, happy relationships etc... Muslims are no different. Jews are no different. Germans are no different. Americans are no different.
You have also said:
"People always tell me the previous German generation would have had a chance to eliminate Hitler - they didn't."
Why should it be different for the millions of muslems, especially the ones who don't even live over there, ones who were born here.
We saw images of people in the middle east celebrating. Do we know if the reporters tried to find muslims mourning? I wonder if anyone in this country mourned when Hiroshima was nuked. If they did, (which I'm sure they did) was it shown on Japanese TV?
I tell you, I know there were people in that culture mourning. Why? Because muslims are no different. Jews are no different. Germans are no different. Americans are no different.
You claim to love this country but I don't think you have the slightest understanding of what this country is about. You don't understand that our strenght is from the diversity and the constant infusion of new peoples. You don't understand what our freedom is based on. As Gary said, it's in our hearts not a building.
Sharon P.
www.fischerpassmoredesign.com
[This message was edited by mom_de_bomb on September 12, 2001 at 11:53.]
[This message was edited by mom_de_bomb on September 12, 2001 at 11:55.]
I spent all of today with my wife trying to find a flag and a pole. Would you believe that not a single store had one in stock?
That's okay, though...I'll try tomorrow. The flag is a token, a gesture I want my neighbors to see (the few that don't already have flags) on my little corner of the Earth.
Moreso, however, the flag is a symbol of (hopefully) the best of America, and like most symbols, its own destruction doesn't destroy the ideas and ideals behind it.
Jens, Sharon, the point is really moot now, and I'd like to get back to complementing everyone on the fine work they do on this list, like I'm supposed to do (insert HUGE grin here). They have enough clues and almost enough evidence for three arrests now, I personally don't care what freaking country they are from as long as they are in NSA security here, and NATO is going to punish the responsible parties so they won't have a place to sit.
I don't hate anymore--time has passed and please don't think I'm less American if my desire to see enemy blood is really low on my list.
Hey, anyone who does have a flag? Would you please give it an American salute for me?
Whew! Where were we before this breach of soulfullness started?
Oh, Klaus...thank you for the editorial link. The article was well built and well presented (given the conditions around the world at the moment). My email server is down, so this is the only way I can thank you!
My Best,
Gary David Bouton
Gary@GaryDavidBouton.com
Free education! The Writings Web site
and the updated GaryWorld Gallery is pretty okay, too.
[This message was edited by Gary David Bouton on September 12, 2001 at 15:39.]
Thanks, Gary. And I have both a flag and a huge pole, so I'll salute it for you!
K
Ok, Gary,
BTW - my Dad made a very cool flagpole out of PVC pipe a long time ago -- never needed painting.
Sharon P.
www.fischerpassmoredesign.com
Gary I am angry and wanted to reply but I will respect your wishes and not write any further. This is no place for verbal war.
Dear Panfer--
I think you expressed in your message what a lot of us are coming to feel. It is not right to blame a people for the acts of a few members of that people.
This thread is CLOSED, everyone, okay? We have building to do and talk about.
Kindest Regards and Profound Sympathy for those we lost in this country,
Gary David Bouton
Gary@GaryDavidBouton.com
Free education! The Writings Web site
and the updated GaryWorld Gallery is pretty okay, too.