Comercial printing and color change

Hi all,
I ran into a problem recently and thought I would pass it along to this forum for opinions. I just completed 6 panels for Battleship Cove that have a background that was suposed to be a navy blue. By that I mean that master color is a dark gray blue and used a conicule blend using various shades for that color. The CMYK is:
C = 68
M = 68
Y = 48
K = 0
I looked at this background on several different computers (the Cove has 10 seats of XaraX and I have one) and the background color look pretty much as I had intended it to look. Print out using an Epson 1520 four color inkjet printer also look nearly the same. I exported the files as TIFFs and looked at them using several different viewer and graphics applications, and once again they look thta same. The files were sent to a printer that we have used before with good results. The images were printed on large PVC panels and laminated. When we got the panels back the background came out, what could best be described, as a rose color. The printer says that equal values of Cyan and Magenta will give a rose color. I cannot really disput this, but if that is so, why would the printouts made on the Epson not show this. I have not done enough with comercial printing to know if this is really the case. I understand that monitor colors and printed colors are often not the same, but this is very different, and strangely all the other colors seem to be as expected.
If any of you would share your experiences I would appreciate it.
Thanks
John D

Hi all,
I ran into a problem recently and thought I would pass it along to this forum for opinions. I just completed 6 panels for Battleship Cove that have a background that was suposed to be a navy blue. By that I mean that master color is a dark gray blue and used a conicule blend using various shades for that color. The CMYK is:
C = 68
M = 68
Y = 48
K = 0
I looked at this background on several different computers (the Cove has 10 seats of XaraX and I have one) and the background color look pretty much as I had intended it to look. Print out using an Epson 1520 four color inkjet printer also look nearly the same. I exported the files as TIFFs and looked at them using several different viewer and graphics applications, and once again they look thta same. The files were sent to a printer that we have used before with good results. The images were printed on large PVC panels and laminated. When we got the panels back the background came out, what could best be described, as a rose color. The printer says that equal values of Cyan and Magenta will give a rose color. I cannot really disput this, but if that is so, why would the printouts made on the Epson not show this. I have not done enough with comercial printing to know if this is really the case. I understand that monitor colors and printed colors are often not the same, but this is very different, and strangely all the other colors seem to be as expected.
If any of you would share your experiences I would appreciate it.
Thanks
John D

I tried creating the same color in Corel Draw 8 and got a slightly warmer blue. But not the Rose color
John

John
68, 68, and 48, I would guess would produce a grayed version of blue.

68% Cyan and Magenta would produce a medium deep blue purple and the yellow should dull it down.

However, for commercial printing where the printed color is critical, I always specify my colors using either the Pantone or TruMatch CMYK values.

Both TruMatch and Pantone have printed swatches of a wide range of colors and values. Pick your color from the swatch book, then use these values. But be sure the colors are in CMYK and not spot colors which are intended to be printed as solid, specially mixed printing inks.

Viewing colors to be commercially printing using Show Printer Colors (Window menu) will give a somewhat more accurate idea how the printed colors will look.

Gary

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John

The gammut range for a desktop inkjet is greater than that for CMYK press printing.

The inks on desktop printers are 'brighter' than press inks.

There are also many settings in the desktop printer driver that could affect the colours printed.

As well as Tru-Match and Pantone, if working in CMYK a lot I would also suggest getting a professional CMYK Tint book, in the UK they cost around 75 UKP.

There was also a great post on colour proofing in Xara X that I saved by Emel this year. The title of the thread begins 'EPS Export saga'. It was posted on 1st of February in this forum. It may also be of use.

Peter

Ok. hope this pasted link to the message works Link to Emel's post on colour proofing in Xara

Gary,
Thanks for your reply. Your advise will be heeded in the future. The actual order was place by the curator, I did not talk to the printer when the order was place, unfortunately. If I had half a brain I would have thought about this possibility. I discussing it with printer since, we agreed I would give him an example printed on the Epson.
Peter,
Thanks also.
The printer is set for its default colors and consistantly give an accurate representation of what is seen on the screen. I suspect the commercial printer had a problem, but that is not a productive avenue to pursue.
I read the suggested post and have imported Corel Draw's Pantone Palattes for future use. I will also look into the Cove geting a pantone color book
That post brings up the question of output. What is the advantage of EPS/PS vs. Tiff bitmaps? I have stayed away from PS because of file size and Xara expotrt problems in the past.
And is there a consistant color shift between Macs and PCs?
John D

With all the work I getting these days (three clinets to put it in perspective) all of which are not only looking for a logo for the web but also for letter heads and business cards etc. I'm starting to have to think the question.

"Do I need to keep anthing special in mind when designing a logo that will also go to print?" In light of the recent collection of logo discussions, is there anthing to remember? E.g.

Keep it to one or two colours?
Avoid photo's in your logo's? I see several Gary included incorporating photo's and or blends in logos. How does this escualte the cost of printing? andhow does this complicate the colour matching?

Turan

Thougt I would add to this similar thread rather than start a new one.

Turan

This is a tricky thing because most of us work in Xara's default RGB color space instead of using Show Printer Colors.

If you are designing for both print and Web, I recommend using the default RGB space if you are working with flat colors and then using a color swatching solution like Pantone CMYK or Trumatch to specify CMYK colors that come the closest to matching what is on the screen.

If you are working with gradient fills, then Show Printer Colors is better because it will give you a better idea how the color will look when printed.

Four color printing is always going to be more expensive than 1 or 2 color printing as a rule. But there are scores of printers that only print 4-color in "gang runs" where your job runs with many others through the press at the same time and as such you get very affordable color printing. And these companies can work from EPS files submitted via the Internet.

One company I have worked with in the past is Copy Craft. Check out their site and you can get a good idea what kinds of services and prices they offer. I see that in addition to color business cards, they now offer envelopes and letterheads.

Gary

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XaraXone

A major myth is that all printers use CMYK inks. Actually, MANY desktop inkjets use RGB. Professional print houses use CMYK, so I guess that's why people think all printers use these inks.

I don't know much about the Epson 1520, but you should check carefully. If it uses RGB, then don't convert to CMYK before printing!

And don't judge the primary colors by the number of ink cartriges. Many inkjets DO have four inks, but they STILL use the RGB system -- the fourth ink is black (RGB and Black).

Marcus Geduld
{ email me } { visit me }

For the beginner?

"then using a color swatching solution like Pantone CMYK or Trumatch to specify CMYK colors that come the closest to matching what is on the screen."

What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean you draw it in RGB then hold up a colour match card to the screen and say to the printer that shape there should be ABCD in CMYK?

Turan

Marcus: "A major myth is that all printers use CMYK inks. Actually, MANY desktop inkjets use RGB. Professional print houses use CMYK, so I guess that's why people think all printers use these inks."

As usual, my friend, you're dead wrong. :-)

ALL physical printers MUST use the CMY inks: it is quite impossible to print with the RGB colors and get anything like a full-color image. What actually is the case with ink-jet printers - and the source of your confusion - is that they internally, in the software driver - *receive* RGB information from the host application. But the driver must then translate this internal RGB information into the physical CMYK colors used by the printer. This is in contrast to PostScript printers, which can receive CMYK color specs from the host application.

The only kind of "printers" which CAN use actual RGB color on outputting are film recorders - but they don't spray physical inks on a paper, but expose a photographic film. Hence, they both can and must use RGB colored lights: the additive process of mixing colors. All ink-spraying deviced must use the subtractive method, i.e., CMY(K).

And you're a graphics teacher??? Sheesh . . ..


K
www.xaraxone.com/FeaturedArt/kn/
www.klausnordby.com/xara

[This message was edited by Klaus Nordby on January 16, 2002 at 14:54.]

is this:

CMYK
Short for Cyan-Magenta-Yellow-Black, and pronounced as separate letters. CMYK is a color model in which all colors are described as a mixture of these four process colors. CMYK is the standard color model used in offset printing for full-color documents. Because such printing uses inks of these four basic colors, it is often called four-color printing.

In contrast, display devices generally use a different color model called RGB, which stands for Red-Green-Blue. One of the most difficult aspects of desktop publishing in color is color matching -- properly converting the RGB colors into CMYK colors so that what gets printed looks the same as what appears on the monitor.

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/C/CMYK.html

Ich bin ein New Yorker

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean you draw it in RGB then hold up a colour match card to the screen and say to the printer that shape there should be ABCD in CMYK? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Turan

Pantone and Trumatch have books and fan books with printed examples of CMYK colors along with the CMYK percentages. Pantone makes a pile of different swatchbooks with both CMYK colors and spot colors (colors intended to be printed as specially mixed inks). These are available both in swatch books with tear out color swatches and fan books.

Trumatch makes a fan book of CMYK colors. I prefer Trumatch's approach although either will work.

In addition to Trumatch and Pantone, there are about a dozen other color matching systems including Toyo, Focoltone, Spectra Master Colors and more.

Pantone has the most extensive collection of color matching system including metalic, and pastel colors and many more.

Gary

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XaraXone

I stand corrected, Klaus. I knew many ink-jets used RGB, but I didn't know it was in their brains, not in their bodies.

Marcus Geduld
{ email me } { visit me }

I know of the fan charts, but if I'm correct, your saying you go to the printer with something like that below. I've exagurated as I guess you do use an RGB shade of Blue and Pink, but when you approach the printer your restating what you want in pantone (or other) having picked the colours form a fan/book.

yes?

Turan

That depends.

The advantage of the system is that you can go to any printer anywhere and say I want this square in this specific Pantone colour, and he will be able to mix it "exactly" as you saw it. The brackets are there because of the paper. There are Pantone guidebooks for glossy and matte paper, but not for any existing paper type and brand. And a little more grey or cream, a little more or less absorbing can make a world of difference.
Of course your printer can also buy the already prepared Pantone colour of your fancy.
Take for example 1935, a red that we often use.
Very often manufacturers mix some drying agents in the ink so it (don't know the English expression) "rolls up" on the press and requires a different liquid setting and mixture. When we mix it ourselves, this problem is far less prominent.

Because the CMYK colourspace is very limited but not fully included in the RGB (most often sRGB for the web), usually in the background the LAB mode is used.
And don't think you'll ever see CMYK on your monitor as it is always some kind of RGB (the phosphortriplets react to the primary light colours red, green and blue, and not to the pigment colours cyan, magenta and yellow).

Indeed, there are several RGB colourspaces, and they are all, in fact, conventions.
The cathode ray gun can emit any values between off and full power. It's just the convention that's accepted to make things manageable (question of memory and calculation time) that limits it to for example 256 different values.

But to give the impression of photographs etc, you need the basic CMYK inks on halftone screens.
Screening was a highly respected craft, with a lot of tricks and little secrets untill Mac and Photoshop took over and destroyed all knowledge.

Addendum:
When you have to reproduce art (paintings) in CMYK, it's a real disaster. Just imagine how many pigments a painter can use, and that no two brands produce the same hue of, let's say Venetian Red. Think of the different hues of all the blacks and whites...

If you don't work against time, time often works for you.

Turan

Pantone has two color matching systems, CMYK and spot colors. Pantone spot colors are specially mixed inks and used for reproducing a specific color or colors, such as a company logo. Each color has a speciific formular so that theoretically, any printer, anywhere in the world, can match the same color (if he/she mixes the inks correctly).

While Xara, and all graphics products have a Pantone spot color palette, only half these colors can be reproduced in CMYK. About 1/4 come close and the remaining 1/4 are not even close. Many people make the mistake of thinking because there is a Pantone spot color palette in their application, they can select one of these colors and it will print the same in CMYK.

Pantone CMYK color swatches should be used for reference when you are printing in four colors (CMYK). I'm not sure about Pantone's CMYK colors, but Trumatch includes the CMYK percentages on their fan book, so you can enter these percentages and be assured of a reasonable match when you go on press.

Does this make sense?

Gary

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XaraXone

A fish cannot know the water. Chinese proverb


Indeed Gary, you actually write what I forget to write because i'm so inside and also no moderator.

Good lesson in taking things for granted and jumping over necessary steps.

If you don't work against time, time often works for you.