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Long time ago - 20 years or more - I've watched a horrifying movie: humans who were supposed to die in a range between 1 and 3 months had to move to a certain hospital. They could decide to spend the rest of their days in the 'traditional' way or to enhance their last days with 'daydreams'.
All of them went for the daydreams, got cabled and connected to a hughe computer. So when they started thinking about traveling to see the mountains, the beaches, the rolling hills, deep sea the machine reacted in real time and presented the movies on a hughe display in their rooms - almost the size of one wall.
However, those movies have been computer generated scenes, far from reality, just beautiful scenery.
The people watched those movies addictively until they died and... well, let's stop here, the rest is even more cruel.
Today, 20 years later, I've visited the Vue d'Esprit site gallery at (http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Gallery/Gallery.php?Index=0)
The first thought was: illusion or reality? Then I remembered the movie. Conclusion: today it **is** possible to put this scenario into action. The only thing that's still missing is the direct link between the computer and the brain.
A nightmare.
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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Long time ago - 20 years or more - I've watched a horrifying movie: humans who were supposed to die in a range between 1 and 3 months had to move to a certain hospital. They could decide to spend the rest of their days in the 'traditional' way or to enhance their last days with 'daydreams'.
All of them went for the daydreams, got cabled and connected to a hughe computer. So when they started thinking about traveling to see the mountains, the beaches, the rolling hills, deep sea the machine reacted in real time and presented the movies on a hughe display in their rooms - almost the size of one wall.
However, those movies have been computer generated scenes, far from reality, just beautiful scenery.
The people watched those movies addictively until they died and... well, let's stop here, the rest is even more cruel.
Today, 20 years later, I've visited the Vue d'Esprit site gallery at (http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Gallery/Gallery.php?Index=0)
The first thought was: illusion or reality? Then I remembered the movie. Conclusion: today it **is** possible to put this scenario into action. The only thing that's still missing is the direct link between the computer and the brain.
A nightmare.
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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Could the title of that movie perhaps be Soylent Green with Charlton Heston?
-Paul
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Forgetting the nightmare references - wouldn't it be great if someone developed a special computer program for doing 'art therapy'. Ideally it would have virtually no learning curve so it could be immediately accessible to even those without computer experience. It would allow users to create evocative images based on emotive input. A thought is, it could be like Mojoworld but with a special interface that would ask you questions about your feelings, memories etc. Based on analysis of your answers, unique images would be generated as visual expressions of the 'feelings'.
Having worked on the design of both prisons and psychiatric facilities I feel there is a need for ways for prisoners and patients to constructively express their feelings. I believe such a program could be great for practically any patient. It could also be great for kids (of all ages).
I suspect it would not be technically difficult to develop such a program provided a suitable existing program like Mojoworld were used as the foundation.
Regards, Ross
<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>
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as well, which could be done with such program's abilities. It's up to us to use them wisely...it is Pandora's Box, and now that it's opened we must make the most of it in positive ways.
I agree with jens in that none of this can, or should, ever replace nature...but realize, too, that people will continue to want more technology and nothing will stop that---there are so many tangible benefits that we want (I'm thinking in regards to health improvements as an example), there's no turning back. We live now at a cross-roads---we have the benefits of both nature and technology to enjoy... I hope that people will decide, in the long run, to appreciate nature and help to keep it all from vanishing under a tangle of concrete and human activity.
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya
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Ross,
I agree with you. It could be fun, just for the sake of the fun itself and to give people the power to express themselves. Would I give it the label 'creativity'? I'm not sure.
Maya,
you are right: people should prefer to appreciate nature more than ever before. The humans can learn a lot from nature!
Don't get me wrong - the results of the Vue d'Esprit renderings are breathtaking as long as the audience can differentiate between fact and fiction, reality and illusion. If they can't - and the 'normal user' usually doesn't know it's an illusion - they will start to dream of this illusion, for example to go for a vacation to exactly that particular place. Only to discover that it doesn't exist. Imagine how frustrating this experience must be.
But what really scares me is the pure fact that more and more people try to develop their 'own' world, playing or acting like God, to execute the power they don't have in real life: control their own [artificial] environment, control the characters, control and command the artificial history and predictions for the future.
IMHO it's a very dangerous trend. Look at the politicians: they act as if they will live forever. They want to erect their own monuments and enjoy it for eternity. Look at the 'managers', the big shots: all they want is power. The power to manipulate other people. Example: Marketing and advertising. They 'develop' useless products and nonsense content, then they purchase ad space to convince the 'target groups' that they need i.e. a new coffee brand.
Hey, that's hilarious. Mankind did develop for millions of years without this bullshit of fake advantages and needs.
Today we laugh about Adolf Hitler who promised a 1000 year Reich. His Reich collapsed after a few years as we all know, despite his 'visions' of a brand new world (brave new world?). But today people celebrate the empty promises of some self promoted 'leaders', without thinking about the content...
Why do all the people have the desire to 'be in control' ? The tiny guy on the street translates - or better saying copies - this behavior, flicks the switch on his computer and starts developing his own world with artificial characters, landscapes, scenes. Why? I doubt that anyone of them ever climbed the mountains to enjoy an early morning sunrise and the spectacular view from the peak in the beautiful REAL world. If they would, they would know they can't control anything. That they won't need another coffee brand. Another plastic toy. And they would realize that there is more to create a world, something that would thrill all senses. The rocks they develop don't have a history, don't smell, don't reveal a fountain, the grass is static, the soothing wind is missing. No bird songs in the sky. It's a dead environment they develop.
In the world of illusions there is no interaction with our skin, our senses.
Don't get me wrong - technology **IS** great for all of us - IF we will use it to take advantage of it, but not to 'design' our own artificial world with it, which is terminated as soon as someone will pull the plug.
Look at Stu's beautiful dragon: it's an illusion for a tell tale story and everybody **knows** it. The purpose is obvious. Or my product developments. They are useful, real, tangible. In other words: this makes **sense**.
But to create a picture of a non existing place somewhere in the mountains doesn't make sense to me. Or did I miss something?
Or the development of a 'realistic' shooting game - does it make sense? Why in this world are so many people destructive? They put so much effort into the development to give it a 'real' look that I can't believe it. And millions of dumb idiots play the shooting games. Every day. And after they managed to erase a populations they start another application and develop a fake, yet beautiful world which THEY can control. Do they feel like God?
Hell, I wish I knew.
I know it's a philosophical approach, but I just wanted to start something else here. If you don't like it, let me know.
And if you have other points or opinions share them with me. And the other members.
Hey, just an idea: since most of you are living in beautiful countries with a nicer climate than in Germany, let your clock ring at 4:30 am to throw you out of your bed, leave the house and find a cosy place somewhere on your porch or in your garden and watch the sunrise. Take a deep breathe of the fresh, chilly morning air, touch the slightly wet grass, feel the sandy soil, smell the flowers and enjoy the sunrise. You'll be surprised how beautiful nature and reality are. And I think you might ask yourself how this can happen without a gazillion GHz CPU's, gigabytes of RAM, HDRI, 32 bit color depth, motion blur, texture plug-ins, morph sequences and the rest of all technology.
All the best and share your impressions you've got when you will have done it.
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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Jens, have you become a philosophical hippie? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Jens wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But to create a picture of a non existing place somewhere in the mountains doesn't make sense to me. Or did I miss something? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I believe you missed something! Creating a picture of a non-existing place can be called recreation. People did this before computers, with paint and brushes. And the reasons to create such a picture can be many. Personally I would create such a picture just to see if I can do it, or just to relax and doing something not related to work.
Also you can create pictures of places where you cannot go, ie making a picture of Pompeii before it was destroyed by the vulcano eruption. Then it would be the artists vision and imagination of that place, no matter if it was done with paint or CG. I don't know if it makes sense to you, but I believe it is recreation for the artist making the picture.
And while I am writing this posting, I came to think of one more reason to make photographic images (it doesn't have to be non-existing places in mountains). When I saw the picture of the gems done in Carrara 2 I was quite impressed and thought I would try it myself. My first attemps were everything but what I wanted. That got me to start investigating how diamonds are cut, read about refraction indexes. Earlier projects hav usually got me to read and learn about things, and the images are the result of what I have learned. A good simulation can proove you have understood what you have studied.
My appologies, I notice that my structure of the text is starting to get a bit 'unstructured'... You wrote about 'normal' people not seeing the differense between CG images and real images, and that they start dreaming of these 'fantasy' places (and eventually getting disappointed when they discover the places don't excist). I don't really agree with you. There are people who are never happy, and always go on complaining that if I had this or if I had that (money, house, living somewhere else etc etc) then everything would be so much better. Well, I would say that most of the times those people would not be happy if they got what they wanted, but would start wanting the next this or that to find happiness. And I would also say that they will never be happy until they start looking into themselves and start enjoying the small things in life. And those unhappy people should also find help before it all turns into a depression or something similar.
BTW, I and my wife recently bought a house with a garden. I don't get up at 4.30 am, but you can still enjoy the morning, grass and birds at 7 or 8 am [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] so I am with you on that point, Jens!
-Paul
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> have you become a philosophical hippie? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hm, I've always been that way. But maybe I turned to be a philosophical terrorist now? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Yes, you are right: re-creating an ancient plase makes a lot of sense. And of course you learn a lot when you try to model, like your diamond experiment. **IF** all people would approach it your way, I wouldn't worry at all.
But still - re-creating nature or a part of it must fail. It'll be nothing else but a helpless attempt to copy something that had billions of years to develop into a perfect state.
Well, don't let us discuss those unhappy people in this world - it would lead to nowhere because they don't even know that they **exist** ;-} Give them bread and games as the roman emperor used to say. Today it's the shooting game generation...
Congrats for your new home! I can imagine why you won't leave your house before 7 or 8 am - the gazillion mosquitos would start a never ending attack to get their breakfast ;-} But after sunrise it must be beautiful in the summer in Finland.
For re-creation I prefer to hike through nature instead of hacking the computer. A computer is just a tool to work with, but nothing to fool around with during leisure time (unless you are running Windows 95 and have to clean your machine during your leisure time to get it up and running again before the next project will hit your desk, rebooting, rebooting, rebooting...)
And now have a great weekend!
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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Don't forget that accepting optical illusions is conditioned by education. Just take language. The moment daddy told you "this is a tree", you lost the ability to see what *is* and you started seeing with the mind. Another example: Aboriginals have no problem with the optical illusions we see as real, like lines bending etc...
Another remark why this proggie could never work: emotion cannot be analysed. Even the greatest reductionnist scientifically trained psycho guy stays on the safer side of instincts.
Emotion is too complex for the mind, and only the mind can analyse. Time also only exists in the mind as for emotion and instinct there is only now.
So stop the tyrant called mind and things stop being a nightmare. Imo it is sick when you have to rely on someone else to dream. Perhaps that's why there are so many insomniacs...
http://www.photoshopgurus.info/forum...ine=1019851685
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But still - re-creating nature or a part of it must fail. It'll be nothing else but a helpless attempt to copy something that had billions of years to develop into a perfect state. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If I understand you correctly, you think it is no sense in creating and rendering a lanscape 'model' just because you do or can?!? Why not seeing it as a landscape painting? People do paint landscapes, even without real life models (=sitting out on a field painting what they see around them). Do these paintings make no sense too? And you could say the same thing about paintings - 'nothing but a helpless attempt to copy'.
The main difference here is that all people are not skilled painters (as well as all painters cannot use 3D computer applications). So while one do it with paint, brushes and canvas, other do it with computers. And I see it as recreation (the computer doesn't always have to be just a tool!), and I guess it doesn't have to make sense either in one way. I often doodle with pen and paper, and what I doodle doesn't make sense either I guess. But it feels good!
Also, doodling (I would say you can also 'doodle' realistic doodles) can let you see things from another points of views, which can get handy in work (instead of beginning from scratch with every new project).
And if I continue with the artistic view on the matter, it is a challenge for the artist to achieve a real life look in the picture, and it is (at least in my case) the procedure of creating that gives the satisfaction, and not always the result. And I also believe that the work of making a program that can simulate real life gives the people at e-on software (maker of Vue d'Esprit) satisfaction as well as seeing the work of other people using their software. So I don't think it is so much about having control and playing God.
The choise of re-creation distinguish between what one work with every day. And re-creation is as a result of that, the ability to do something that doesn't relate to work. In your case you go hiking, while I can see that a gardener who works outdoors most days can relax with a computer. Personally I work with computers every day, and often I don't even want to see a computer when I get home.
About our 'new' home, we bought it about 2 years ago (living in it for about a year and a half) and have been renovating since then (how's that for re-creation? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ). It's not until now we see any result (the interior looks like the interior of a house and the garden starts to look like a garden [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ). And yes, the summers are beautiful here in Finland (and the spring was also beautiful this year due exceptionally warm weather) and yes I have already been mosquito breakfast, lunch, snack and evening meal [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] . But I see the whole thing from the light view of point - it is not as bad in sothern Finland as it is in the northern part of the country (where the bugs are big as bird - at least that is what they say [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] )
-Paul
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Life is about now not tomorrow,and its all the little nows which make up tomorrow.Live in the now and let the tomorows take care of themselves [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Oh Paul very cool gems...forget to post a comment..doh! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
Stu.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I understand you correctly, you think it is no sense in creating and rendering a lanscape 'model' just because you do or can?!? Why not seeing it as a landscape painting? People do paint landscapes, even without real life models (=sitting out on a field painting what they see around them). Do these paintings make no sense too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good point. But these paintings make sense because they show an impression the artist had when he painted the picture. He didn't want to copy nature or even surpass it. Ok, Michelangelo and some other 'artists' made stunning paintings - looking almost real. But not in terms of details, but in terms of mood. Actually they left out details which made their paintings look so real - painted by heart, not by CAD knowledge.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And you could say the same thing about paintings - 'nothing but a helpless attempt to copy'.
The main difference here is that all people are not skilled painters (as well as all painters cannot use 3D computer applications). So while one do it with paint, brushes and canvas, other do it with computers. And I see it as recreation (the computer doesn't always have to be just a tool!), and I guess it doesn't have to make sense either in one way. I often doodle with pen and paper, and what I doodle doesn't make sense either I guess. But it feels good!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed - it feels great. I need one sketchblock per week <sigh>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, doodling (I would say you can also 'doodle' realistic doodles) can let you see things from another points of views, which can get handy in work (instead of beginning from scratch with every new project).
And if I continue with the artistic view on the matter, it is a challenge for the artist to achieve a real life look in the picture, and it is (at least in my case) the procedure of creating that gives the satisfaction, and not always the result. And I also believe that the work of making a program that can simulate real life gives the people at e-on software (maker of Vue d'Esprit) satisfaction as well as seeing the work of other people using their software. So I don't think it is so much about having control and playing God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with your view. But the point is that **you** have these thoughts and points of view, but the masses...?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The choise of re-creation distinguish between what one work with every day. And re-creation is as a result of that, the ability to do something that doesn't relate to work. In your case you go hiking, while I can see that a gardener who works outdoors most days can relax with a computer. Personally I work with computers every day, and often I don't even want to see a computer when I get home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately I can't distinguish between work and leisure. It's my life, and I can't split it into different areas. In my leisure time I have great ideas and start sketching, take some pics and wake up the computers to 'play' with my ideas. And when I am 'working' I often leave the 'office', tour with my bycicle or walk through the forest... shame on me.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>About our 'new' home, we bought it about 2 years ago (living in it for about a year and a half) and have been renovating since then (how's that for re-creation? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely fantastic! You will enjoy the fruits of your effort every single day.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's not until now we see any result (the interior looks like the interior of a house and the garden starts to look like a garden [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ). And yes, the summers are beautiful here in Finland (and the spring was also beautiful this year due exceptionally warm weather) and yes I have already been mosquito breakfast, lunch, snack and evening meal [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] . But I see the whole thing from the light view of point - it is not as bad in sothern Finland as it is in the northern part of the country (where the bugs are big as bird - at least that is what they say [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some day I will travel to Finland. My parents have been there 4 years ago, my father stayed there for a while after he escaped the Russian prison in WWII, and my neighbor is an engineer on a container vessel on a route from Hamburg to Helsinki. They told how beautiful it is there - even in the winter!
And about the bugs: yes, they are hughe. When you cross the border to Sweden you can see them crunching your 4x4 tires into tiny pieces ;-}, and while you stay there wondering what's going on the mosquitos torture you to hell ;-} - the bugs and the mosquitos have set up a perfect organization to get rid of the disturbing elements - us. Best of all: they don't need computers for this task - LOL
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Don't forget that accepting optical illusions is conditioned by education. Just take language. The moment daddy told you "this is a tree", you lost the ability to see what *is* and you started seeing with the mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Almost true. It had been defined being a 'tree'. However, I was reluctant like hell to learn 'tree', 'animal' etc - I used my own words or descriptions for it. Until I went to school where I had been forced to even learn the names in German and Latin by heart.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another example: Aboriginals have no problem with the optical illusions we see as real, like lines bending etc...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A bending line is a curve ;-}. It's something that is there just like the air we breathe.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another remark why this proggie could never work: emotion cannot be analysed. Even the greatest reductionnist scientifically trained psycho guy stays on the safer side of instincts.
Emotion is too complex for the mind, and only the mind can analyse. Time also only exists in the mind as for emotion and instinct there is only now.
So stop the tyrant called mind and things stop being a nightmare. Imo it is sick when you have to rely on someone else to dream. Perhaps that's why there are so many insomniacs...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Time can exist in the emotion as well, because emotions have a past - best experienced in our dreams.
However to really prove it we must be able to understand the space/time curve. Is the space/time curve a hughe loop? At least **I** don't know and can't prove it.
Excellent thoughts!
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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Maybe the concept of reducing dreams to a "digesting" of what you had to suppress during waking hours is a simplification?
I won't talk too much about them, but my dreams are very logical and I can feel and think and make concious decisions in them. And when I am aware I'm dreaming (because I can float up and down at will) I can change everything I want, but limited to what I can imagine. So it's once again imagination and being able to focus/concentrate attention, or creativity and will-power that do the job.
http://www.photoshopgurus.info/forum...ine=1019851685
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here they quite simply leave me speachless. I'm not a photographer, but I took this pic from the front porch deck this a.m.-----maybe you can get an idea of how it is---gorgeous!!! We live in the forest/hills, the area of Coos Bay is seen 5 miles in the distance, it is so peaceful here and there is abundant wildlife on our property. I wouldn't trade it for anything!!! I spend more time outdoors than indoors enjoying it.
Great discussion and wonderful points made by all!!!
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya
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thanks a lot for your pic - it is indeed gorgeous. The deck has a very unique location!
It's so simple - you took your camera, pressed a button and voila - the picture is there. A snapshot of a short but beautiful moment.
Over here it was raining this morning. 14° C = 54°F. I enjoyed the walk to the newspaper box, feeling the slight rain on my shirt, smelling the fresh air of the surrounding forests. I don't have the desire to re-create this experience with a technical application - the perception would fail.
Now the ultimate question: is photography a re-creation of nature?
I'd say it's a method to capture a snapshot, a short glimpse of a certain stage of nature or a moment onto film or into bits and bytes. But it differs from the process of creating something that doesn't exist. Of course there is (or at least can be) a creative process involved, but photography IMHO remains an image of a small part of the universe. A photograph is like an emotion or instinct: it is NOW, it doesn't have a past. However, it might develop a future, bringing back memories after a certain time, that means photography will develop a past, a history in the future, whereas emotions - even if they are NOW - carry the past in the present moment.
Confusing? Well, I could continue, but I am too tired tonight to sort out my thoughts. I have to apologize, but maybe the other members will jump in right here to continue?
This thread is absolutely fantastic. Thanks to you all,
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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This is indeed a interesting thread. Thanks for getting it going and continuing to support it with your insightful remarks.
I sense from your comments the idea that the "masses" using these "realistic landscape generation programs" might be failing to seperate their creations from reality. Unfortunately, there are no computer graphics programs that have mass appeal. The analogy to painting is a good one. Painters, like computer graphic artists, are certainly in the minority - very few people actually create the realistic landscapes that prompted this thread. I rather doubt any of them confuse what they are doing with reality. Sure some of them must feel like they are "God" as they create but I doubt a single such person thinks they are God. As has been stated, it is likely the predominate motivator is recreation. Creative processes are at play when you use Vue d'esprit, terragen, mojoworld, bryce, etc. To me that abundance of creative activity needs to be celebrated rather than cause concern.
The "masses", unfortunately, tend to seek their recreation in passive activities that involve little creative thought. I'm thinking of television watching. It has been said that the popularity of mass-media television is the non-demanding escapism it provides. It provides a highly accessible escape to other "realities". Watching it our imaginations can be transported to other places, times, universes, etc. Whilst imagination is sparked, creative thought processes are put on hold: So much so that many people don't know the thrill of being creative. I believe creativity is intrensic to all people but that it must be exercised and honed. Without nurturing and exercising - creativity withers. In our culture the wonderful creativity of childhood thinking, more and more, gives way to relatively dull adult thought processes. That scares me.
It would excite me if there really was a mass-market computer program that encouraged creativity. Someone needs to create such a 'killer application' that can rekindle creativity in the "masses".
Regards, Ross
<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>
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for this thread and the thoughtful reply---I agree with you!!! I think the thing I really do like most about using a computer from time to time is for the communication---I really enjoy being able to share thoughts with people from all over who I probably would never meet otherwise...things like this discussion would be missed---we could have it with others, of course, but it wouldn't be the same discussion...I always feel I learn from it and enjoy it.
Well, Ross, a killer ap for the masses.....hmmmm...there's a real challenge! The first thing that comes to mind is ask them to put on their shoes and get out of the house and enjoy the day/evening...."Nature, The Killer Ap For The Masses!" Sounds odd, but it's probably the best one around...and you won't have to wait for the CD to come out. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya
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Imagine if you were blind from birth, what would a color look like? Describe a color to a blind person, or a sound to someone who's been deaf from birth. Is it real? well, yes it feels rough, is it a tree? What does this music sound like, well if I can touch it, Oh its a vibration. Humm....., looks like it, smells like it, feels like it, taste like it, sure glad I didn't step in it.
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Maybe the concept of reducing dreams to a "digesting" of what you had to suppress during waking hours is a simplification?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think so because many people have so called daydreams, that means they dream with eyes wide open, talking to other people, working or sketching, driving a car etc. A good example are parrots - they are excellent daydreamers. They don't have to suppress anything, the just live like children - they never grow up as the humans define the 'adult stage'.
I think we can't turn off our dreams like a computer, only because the sun is rising above the horizon. The subconscious (spelling?) keeps going. That's why creative people have spontaneous ideas, because the 'reality' is constantly transfered to the subconscious - hell, now I pulled out my dictionary - processed there and 'transfered' back to the conscious, facilitating the evolvement of new thoughts and ideas. Don't get me wrong at this point. Of course this process can happen to 'normal' people as well, but not on a constant basis. 'Normal' people 'store' the information and process them while they sleep - dreaming a solution or the end of a story. The next morning they wake up and **if** they remember their dreams they have the 'aha effect'. There is a certain time lag inherited. Of course it's also possible that the effect needs several nights or even weeks.
But as I said - highly creative people have the ability to be awake and dream at the same time - I've experienced this effect many times while meeting movie directors, authors, painters, designers, dancers...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I won't talk too much about them, but my dreams are very logical and I can feel and think and make concious decisions in them. And when I am aware I'm dreaming (because I can float up and down at will) I can change everything I want, but _limited to what I can imagine_. So it's once again imagination and being able to focus/concentrate attention, or creativity and will-power that do the job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lucky you. I can reach this state only at certain times of the day, but usually I float down. Up is a shock. I'm not sure if you really can change everything your want, because even the subconscious does have a certain logic - if it wouldn't have this logic you would end up in a chaos or in a hospital with a shrink ;-}
The reason is simple: nature is built on - what humans call logical - processes. The universe is built on logic. A logic we - the humans - don't yet understand. We try to understand them with mathematical, physical, astronomical and chemical models to get a **picture**, but we still can think of a 4th dimension. Only a handful scientist can imagine a 4th, 5th or even 6th dimension. It's very abstract, but it does have a logic. However, even those great scientists don't understand the space/time curve at all for one reason: imagine a line, 3 lightyears long. OK. The line - as per definition - is straight. Now add the time dimension, and if there is a space/time curve, this line MUST contract into one single point. Let me explain: the line does have two ends, nodes or points. It's the shortest distance between these points. Assuming the space/time curve does exist, the line would bend and still be the shortest distance between the two nodes. If the time accelerates, the bend becomes more visible. Apply the highest accelleration and the two points will melt together into a singularity. This is logical. It's almost a mathematical 'axiom' (axiom means we agree that 1 plus 1 is 2, otherwise the whole mathematical system would collapse).
OK, now that we have reached a singularity, we can slow down the time curve. What will happen?
01. The singularity can't be split, so the time would have come to a standstill, or the universe will remain a singularity.
02. The singularity still consists of two points, that means they can move apart.
Solution 2 is the only logical solution. But hey, wait a second - a singularity doesn't have a direction, so what will happen if the time will slow down? Right, we can't predict the direction. It could be forward as well as backward or to any side. (Don't try to answer the question how we define a 'back', 'forward' or 'side' based on a singularity - it would drive you insane here).
Just this tiny excursion into logic of nature ;-}
For the same reason even your dreams MUST be logical, and they are logical, because we have grown up with nature's logic, without having the slightest chance to experience anything else.
Guys and girls, this is a tough cookie, and I hope you could follow me (shame on me if I couldn't explain it in your language, but even in German it's a mind cracker).
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I sense from your comments the idea that the "masses" using these "realistic landscape generation programs" might be failing to seperate their creations from reality. Unfortunately, there are no computer graphics programs that have mass appeal. The analogy to painting is a good one. Painters, like computer graphic artists, are certainly in the minority - very few people actually create the realistic landscapes that prompted this thread. I rather doubt any of them confuse what they are doing with reality. Sure some of them must feel like they are "God" as they create but I doubt a single such person thinks they _are_ God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, but we should define the word 'masses' first. 100.000 people are a mass in my opinion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As has been stated, it is likely the predominate motivator is recreation. Creative processes are at play when you use Vue d'esprit, terragen, mojoworld, bryce, etc. To me that abundance of creative activity needs to be celebrated rather than cause concern. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In a certain way - yes. But in reality life for all of us would be much more enjoyable if there would be more 'creativity', because then the envy and jaelousy would be abandoned!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The "masses", unfortunately, tend to seek their recreation in passive activities that involve little creative thought. I'm thinking of television watching. It has been said that the popularity of mass-media television is the non-demanding escapism it provides. It provides a highly accessible escape to other "realities". Watching it our imaginations can be transported to other places, times, universes, etc. Whilst imagination is sparked, creative thought processes are put on hold: So much so that many people don't know the thrill of being creative. I believe creativity is intrensic to all people but that it must be exercised and honed. Without nurturing and exercising - creativity withers. In our culture the wonderful creativity of childhood thinking, more and more, gives way to relatively dull adult thought processes. That scares me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True. But it's the topmost goal of governments and industries to keep the citizens dumb, because as long as they are dumb they don't question a tax system (Marx and Engels).
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It would excite me if there really was a mass-market computer program that encouraged creativity. Someone needs to create such a 'killer application' that can rekindle creativity in the "masses".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You've hit the point - doesn't Microsoft use this method - promoting their software to unleash the creativity of gazillion people? **We** know it's bullshit, but actually millions are blinded by the words because they can't think.
1% of mankind does think
2% of manking can think if they want to
5% of mankind think they can think
the rest is dumb.
I don't remember the science project that revealed these data, but it's somewhere in my archives.
Aren't these data worth to be celebrated as well?
I am not sure at this point either, because a dumb mass is like a singularity: you never know which direction they will head to in the next second. So currently it's the best to feed them with daily soaps - then we **KNOW** where they are: in front of their TV set ;-}
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think the thing I really do like most about using a computer from time to time is for the communication---I really enjoy being able to share thoughts with people from all over who I probably would never meet otherwise...things like this discussion would be missed---we could have it with others, of course, but it wouldn't be the same discussion...I always feel I learn from it and enjoy it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. The real revolution of the Internet was e-mail and communication in forums, not virtual shopping malls.
You could have this kind of discussions with others? Lucky you - if I would go to my neighbors it would end up in empty blurbs after the 10th beer and the 20th schnaps ;-}
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ask them to put on their shoes and get out of the house and enjoy the day/evening...."Nature, The Killer Ap For The Masses!" Sounds odd, but it's probably the best one around...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup. But why put on their shoes? Don't you want them to experience the feel of soft sand versus dew soaked lawn? ;-} Or melted asphalt? (Don't laugh - we had this experience in Texas 23 years ago...but not barefoot of course)
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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subscribe to the idea that the vast majority of mankind are dumb. Awsome potential is in practically everyone; its just that our social and political structures "dumb" us down.
Creativity, innovation, and philosophical thinking are optional for the individual in the socio-political "world" we have constructed. While each person was born with such capabilities built-in, the world order we were born into doesn't demand much of us. For the complacent majority, that world is just 'is' - they never realize it is a created construct subject to evolve and change.
The idea of standing out in the natural world - feeling the sand between your toes, feeling the chill of the morning fog, watching the birds be birds - really offers the opportunity to lift your thoughts out of the "dumb" status quo that predominates too much of our thinking. I agree that the Vue d'esprit/Terragen/Bryce/Mogoworld's do not offer the same experience. No photo-real visualization ever will. What they can do is remind us of the sublime experiences we have had in the real world. For instance I had the life-altering experience of hiking down into the Grand Canyon. Playing with Terragen often reminds me of that experience. The Terragen experience is of course a pale imitation of a sublime natural experience - still, it helps our imaginations soar.
Regards, Ross
<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>
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optional!!! Yes, by all means, jens, throw off the shoes, wiggle the toes and breathe in the fresh morning air.....it's another invigorating morning here full of bird song (they greet the day with such delight) and the window is open right here by the desk so I can glance up and see them too...
I want to get out there with them!!!
Ross, the experiences you had hiking must be great...no doubt you are reminded of them when you work on terragen pics...this can inspire you to seek out and enjoy more outdoor activity for all the things the images can't provide you with...that would be a good thing if it would affect others the same way.
I agree that TV is mind-numbing, it is better for kids and adults to do way less of it!!! It's a waste of precious time for the most part, in my opinion. It may even be depressing for some. It's healthy, I think, to get away from it---you'll even feel better!
Just a few thoughts.
Have a great weekend everyone!!!
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya
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TV or not TV?
I don't have a TV, I don't watch TV. Only on rare occasions - 3 or 4 times a year. All I know about current TV content is from some elaborate newspapers. Maya, it's simple to get rid of the TV: pull the plug and cover it with sticky tape. You'll feel like an addicted smoker the first days, but then you will notice that you have more dreams, a sound sleep, no broken fingernails after watching a chainsawhalloweenmonstermassacre. And believe me - you can laugh out loud without soap operas ;-}
Your message sounded like poetry to me - it's sad that I can't write with your style because I don't have all the right words on hand. OK, I could torture my dictionary, but then it would take ages to post my messages.
Hey, aren't we lucky? I've lived in mega cities like NY, Singapore, HongKong etc - there we didn't have the slightest chance to walk without shoes - too dangerous because of broken glassbottles. And if you leave the city, you need shoes - boots! - because of snakes, dangerous spiders...
As nice as a jungle is - I am glad to live in a moderate climate zone where we don't have all these beasty animals ;-}. Sure, sometimes it's frustrating to never see the sun for weeks, but at least we have 4 seasons (though I could easily omit the winter season!).
Isn't life beautiful? I mean except for the annoying things like tax laws, parking tickets and the rest of necessities for 'civilization' and 'urban life'.
Ross,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Creativity, innovation, and philosophical thinking are optional for the individual in the socio-political "world" we have constructed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope, I definitely didn't construct it ;-}
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While each person was born with such capabilities built-in, the world order we were born into doesn't demand much of us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I disagree. It demands that we fight for our personal freedom, to break the chains they want to tie us down with.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For the complacent majority, that world is just 'is' - they never realize it is a created construct subject to evolve and change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely true. I have to apologize if I can't remember the latin expression of the philosophical statement 'I think, so I do exist'. I only know it in German: Ich denke, also bin ich [Descartes]
Quid quid agas, agis prudentere et respice finem (Latin, meaning 'Whatever you do, do it carefully and consider the result or outcome')
I wish the 92% of the 'dumb' people would at least sign this statement.
And now the original - it just popped into my mind (my Latin is more than lousy!): Cogito ergo sum.
Unfortunately you can't reverse this statement into 'I am so I can think' :-}
And now the ultimate question for your homework:
Can plants think? Cave Carnem (Latin: watch the dog!)
I really enjoy this thread.
And yes, before I forget to reply to Mike:
Explain the color 'red' to a blind. Well, that an often used statement. IMHO we should focus on the 'normals' surrounding us before we start to discuss the exceptions. Of course blindness is part of the nature, but it's an accident in between the rather large bandwidth of 'normal' or 'healthy'.
However, as much as deaf people can experience music by feeling the vibrations you can describe colors to the blinds. It's a bit rude, but some scientist proved that it is possible. Did you ever experience a hard beat on your head, like being knocked out? Not as hard as to knock you out, but you will see colors because the impact on your head forces the brain to react - generating colors. They discovered that hits on different parts on the head generate different colors.
So it's more or less BANG - this is read, BANG, this is green etc. And you can stimulate the same process with tiny electrical shocks - much nicer method I'd say.
The brain **can** process colors, but the blind people don't have the 'network cable' from the eyes to the brain. Sorry again for the simple explanation, but my vocabulary is not trained for this area <sigh>
And now my parrots are screaming - our blue golden macaw is reaching the 130 dB limit, so I will quit here for today and wish you a great weekend.
jens
(please keep this thread going!)
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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regarding "pulling the plug" on the TV!!! I fully confess to having seen my share of weird shows---no "soap operas" though! I will admit to enjoying seeing some National Geographic shows about other parts of the world and the wildlife---places I haven't been to, and I have gained some appreciation and awareness, even if it is in this small way, of places and nature I now have a concern about and try to do some things that will help, rather than hinder the environment... Why? Because even though it's distant, like the jungles, etc..., I think it's all connected, and what happens elsewhere affects us in ways we may not have even thought of. I do read a lot, but I have enjoyed the filmakers efforts also to show us things about the world we wouldn't have imagined...
But I speak from the position of someone who has sight...your points about vision, colors, how we perceive these, and other input from the world, is fascinating! That topic alone sprouts off into so many directions!!! But again, I think it relates to this one about appreciation of nature---we could really do with using our senses more...pay attention to what we really see or hear or just feel. Whatever senses one has to use, make the most of them. When I think about all the things people like Helen Keller, who lacked eyesight and hearing from childhood, discovered and learned and accomplished, I'm just awestruck. These abilities are precious and wonderful to have, gifting us with so much...but there are wonderful abilities within the mind, as you've pointed out, that ought to be explored more. We don't use most of what we have and there is enormous potential within each of us.
What I want to say is, I'm for things which spark our imagination and creativity. It is different things for different people. For me, nature is the main inspiration...and other people's perspectives and ideas. When technology removes us too frequently from these interactions with the world I think we get "lost", we lose creativity. I like communications which inspire us to create in and experience our world. I like "things" which don't add to the trash or pollution of the planet. Here, jens, you help us with your designs!!! I enjoy seeing helpful, useful items which last---and there's no reason why they can't be made to have clean design and aesthetic appeal too.
On plants---I have a "green thumb"---I can only say it seems that they "sense" a great deal from our world...I think I've read also that trees manage to perhaps chemically communicate to each other about defending against insect attack...it's all endlessly fascinating and very amazing!!!
"Watch the dog!" Yes, and perhaps "watch the plants" too!!!
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya
[This message was edited by Crow Haven on May 25, 2002 at 16:17.]
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I think that hitting someone in the head to make them see colors is absurd to say the least. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
My question was merely an example of sensing reality verses computer generated fantasy. Paintings, photographs and CG Images are visual stimuli lacking any tangible substance other than the material they are presented with. While I believe that the criminal mind could use such a medium as a deception. I also believe that the average person that has the capacity to operate such a piece of equipment is not so gullible as to be lacking the ability to distinguish reality from fantasy. As for time and space, I would probably be better off not telling you what I think. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
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any of us would want to participate in!!! However it occurred, though, it is interesting how our color perceptions are built in.
Simply looking at pictures, no matter how realistically done isn't a problem...but a virtual reality system of some sort where you can be hooked up to it and become totally oblivious to the world around you, and all input from it, is an interesting question.
It's like that Huey Lewis song, "I Want A New Drug". I think some people worry about that situation, especially those with children, and wish they could find ways to encourage others to try living without so many of the technological trappings we're surrounded by and some may even at times feel overwhelmed by.
It really is a great world---with and without our advances...we can do so much to help others with it...but it is a double-edged sword. I think jens feels concern about it. I think it's something people who are raising children can be concerned with now, and even more as time goes on...the big question is are we inspiring creativity or, as Ross discussed, encouraging too much mindless passive consumption which thwarts actual desires to create??? It's a good reminder to get out and "smell the roses" more...
I understand the concern. The only answer I have, for use in my own life, is trying to do what I can regarding those I interact with, how I try to encourage them to enjoy "nature" and appreciate what it offers...they either react positively to it and give it a go,(I have, for instance, inspired strangers to take a look through my telescope and "see" the moon and saturn, etc...and they have suddenly taken on new interest in what's out there and what's right here. We are surrounded by things we miss every day!) and this seems to be the case a great deal of the time, or it's just not to their taste. Ok--that's fine...
Just ideas, just questions, just musings going here. Great to get other's perceptions. (I still like the color red.)
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya
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Maya,
The state of being concerned for the welfare of others can also be a 2 edged sword, Almost any activity if taken to the extreme can become grounds for an argument.
jens,
;<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wish the 92% of the 'dumb' people would at least sign this statement.
"Quid quid agas, agis prudentere et respice finem (Latin, meaning 'Whatever you do, do it carefully and consider the result or outcome')<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When one or a few individuals publicly base a hypothetical argument on their concern for the masses, some elements of the argument could be viewed as a pretentious state of arrogance by those to which it references.
Be careful
[This message was edited by Mike Bailey on May 27, 2002 at 11:14.]
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daring to consider other viewpoints---those we find "agreeable" tend to be those we find agreement with. There is always risk you won't be agreed with, or that you didn't find just the right way to say and present your idea...but there is opportunity to learn other viewpoints, these can generate benefical ideas.
Something to think on---there has been few major technologies created that humanity didn't also find a way to use against itself...
Why not consider what new technology has in store for us beyond the hype? It can be useful.
Considering this for myself only, if it is arrogant to wonder how it may affect others, I want to know and understand more about what technology is bringing to my life, including computer use. Will it harm or hinder me or my creativity, or be of benefit? If I don't consider these things, how will I know what to choose or vote for, etc...? For just myself I wonder about balancing technology and nature...and I don't trust in big business to give the truth or have the best answers. It's interesting to hear what others think about it too, pro and con. I'm listening...
I understand the frustrations/concerns people speak of when they are bombarded with media reports on the state of things with technology's "detrimental effects". I am part of "the masses".
"You can choose the red pill or the blue pill..." (The Matrix)
be careful...
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think that hitting someone in the head to make them see colors is absurd to say the least. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Call it whatever you want - it is absurd, but it was the beginning of a new research on how a human brain 'generates' colors. Most scientific experiments started out rude but developed very fast to higher levels. So the electrical stimulation of today's research is a great progress if it will lead to give blind people a chance to understand colors. And on the long run find a way to give them eyesight.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My question was merely an example of sensing reality verses computer generated fantasy. Paintings, photographs and CG Images are visual stimuli lacking any tangible substance other than the material they are presented with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With one difference: photographs are a mirror of reality, as well as paintings. But cg images are only randomly placed bits and bytes - you push a few sliders to 'model' a world that doesn't have any parallel in nature or reality.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While I believe that the criminal mind could use such a medium as a deception. I also believe that the average person that has the capacity to operate such a piece of equipment is not so gullible as to be lacking the ability to distinguish reality from fantasy. As for time and space, I would probably be better off not telling you what I think. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's your decision - this is a free forum ;-}.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When one or a few individuals publicly base a hypothetical argument on their concern for the masses, some elements of the argument could be viewed as a pretentious state of arrogance by those to which it references. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That why I used the Latin statement, showing that it is NOT my word. Instead, it's a historic statement, made some 2000 years ago.
I don't want to be or even appear to be arrogant. My goal is to ignite a new process in people, make them start thinking about themselves, who they are, where they are. The question why they are could exceed their capabilities, so let the philosophers in this world answer this question because they get paid for it.
Did you notice that people prefer to be destructive than to be creative? Just look at the slaughter games sold vs. the creative apps sold in this world.
How comes that the masses downloaded the chicken shooting game from a German company by the 100 millions instead of browsing galleries with cute chickens in funny situations? And then contribute their own creative input?
No, all those nobrainers want is BANG, BANG, BANG, kill, destroy, erase, hurt.
As I said - and this is what **I** say and think: the masses proved they are dumb because even if you give them a choice they run into the wrong direction.
Another proof: here in our village some people from other places accelerate their cars if a chicken (= synonym for hedgehog, squirrel, duck, mouse, marten) is walking on the road to hit it instead of slowing down to enjoy free running chicken, not imprisoned in cage batteries for nothing else but to produce cheap eggs.
I have seen Americans (sorry, I don't want to step onto your toes, don't take it personally, I think there are Europeans as well, but I've watched this in the US) arriving at a sightseeing point, jumping out of their car, pulling their camera up, taking a snapshot, rushing back into their car while the father said to the children: hurry, we can watch the pics at home, need to go to the next point now.
OK, this might be an exemption, but I've seen similar scenes in Europe as well.
So please don't tell me the masses have brains. Most of them don't even want to think. Does it hurt to think? I don't know.
Ross and Maya said it would be beautiful to have an application for everyone to be creative. Well, this application is here: the Internet. But instead of using the Internet in a creative way to research and learn, guess what happened: the masses click the links to porn sites (in Europe more than 70% of the search engine requests). And can you imagine that these dumb idiots grab their credit card to pay big bucks for the content? They do. But at the same time they complain if a newspaper or serious magazine charges micropayments (=cents!) for articles. The rest is glued to the impertinent dumb TV sets. Passive. Inactive - not interactive (they don't know what interaction really means). They escape into virtual, non existing worlds.
The masses ARE dumb. They prove it every day. Appears to me all they want to do is to f... off their non existent pinhead brains.
OK, the last paragraph might be a bit rude and simplyfied, but I am convined it hits the nail on it's head...
Maya,
you mentioned you would love to watch National Geographic documentation films. Well, it's my wish as well, but we are a minority. The entertainment industry prefers to bombard the masses with nobrainer stuff and boring advertising because a mass market is always profitable (in the brains of the big shot decision makers).
I can predict what would happen if they would set up a National Geographic TV channel: it would have to close down after a month because the audience is too small. A few thousands maybe.
It would be fantastic if they would offer a subscription to a monthly DVD or Video CD worldwide. But on the other hand I enjoy to read their magazines on the couch as well - far away from the 'confuser' ;-}
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's always a risk... daring to consider other viewpoints---those we find "agreeable" tend to be those we find agreement with. There is always risk you won't be agreed with, or that you didn't find just the right way to say and present your idea...but there is opportunity to learn other viewpoints, these can generate benefical ideas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excellent point!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Something to think on---there has been few major technologies created that humanity didn't also find a way to use against itself...
Why not consider what new technology has in store for us beyond the hype? It can be useful.
Considering this for myself only, if it is arrogant to wonder how it may affect others, I want to know and understand more about what technology is bringing to my life, including computer use. Will it harm or hinder me or my creativity, or be of benefit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The computer technology will be of benefit: without is we wouldn't have met and exchanged ideas!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I don't consider these things, how will I know what to choose or vote for, etc...? For just myself I wonder about balancing technology and nature...and I don't trust in big business to give the truth or have the best answers. It's interesting to hear what others think about it too, pro and con. I'm listening...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Follow your instinct and feelings, the 'feeling in your stomach'. And think about computer technology as a tool, nothing else. A tool to connect to other people at very remote places in this world. A tool to give your ideas a shape with a bezier curve. A tool to simplify your creative process. A tool to creatively play and 'fool around' with, taking the burden off your shoulder to use an eraser or a new canvas if you've made a mistake (though I don't think you need this option when I watch your pictures!). A tool to replace the old fashioned typewriter. A very valuable tool to perform researches without having to leave your home. But I would never connect my fridge to the Internet, or my TV set or a video or DVD recorder or our heating system or washing machine.
And when you use it as a tool turn it off or send it into sleep mode if you don't need it - like hanging a saw to the wall in the garage if you have finished your work.
For me it's a tool to work with in 3D space. It gives me a chance to turn around, twist and flip my product developments to check the 'look' from other viewpoints. Doing this with clay models would take ages. And I use it as a tool to order books, because we are living in a remote location with no good bookstore around here. And none that carries American or British titles (very important for the design pro!).
It's a tool to create letters and print them with a mail merge function to contact new and potential clients.
Oh yes, and because it's a tool for me, I don't have any games on any of the machines.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I understand the frustrations/concerns people speak of when they are bombarded with media reports on the state of things with technology's "detrimental effects". I am part of "the masses".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NO. You are NOT part of the masses. If so, you wouldn't have contributed to the forum, you wouldn't have painted those wonderful pictures, you wouldn't have invested into a telescope to watch the universe.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"You can choose the red pill or the blue pill..." (The Matrix)
be careful...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Follow your heart and you'll pick the right one.
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
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If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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>"Call it whatever you want - it is absurd, but it was the beginning of a new research on how a human brain 'generates' colors. Most scientific experiments started out rude but developed very fast to higher levels. So the electrical stimulation of today's research is a great progress if it will lead to give blind people a chance to understand colors. And on the long run find a way to give them eyesight."
Is this the research required to create the un-reality machine that will control the mind of your children's children?
I do understand your concerns and also agree to some degree with you, at the same time I hope for the sake of the rest of the world that observations like yours are limited to this small place and not allowed to effect society as a whole. I believe there are a lot of people in the world that you are not taking into consideration. The internet statistics represent a very small minority, when you made your observations at the sightseeing point was it a majority of the people that were jumping in and out of their cars taking snap shots then rushing off? I doubt it. I have not lead an isolated existence, I make my own observations. I am also part of the masses. I enjoy nature, I exist with nature. I take my own sweet time with all the aspects of my life.
Am I stupid? you have stereotyped a large number of people within your statements?
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is this the research required to create the un-reality machine that will control the mind of your children's children? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know. Maybe it will lead to that point sooner or later. Let's hope they abandon it.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I do understand your concerns and also agree to some degree with you, at the same time I hope for the sake of the rest of the world that observations like yours are limited to this small place and not allowed to effect society as a whole. I believe there are a lot of people in the world that you are not taking into consideration. The internet statistics represent a very small minority, when you made your observations at the sightseeing point was it a majority of the people that were jumping in and out of their cars taking snap shots then rushing off? I doubt it. I have not lead an isolated existence, I make my own observations. I am also part of the masses. I enjoy nature, I exist with nature. I take my own sweet time with all the aspects of my life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said: it was one family, and I turned away back to the trails, unable to believe what I have seen. Certainly not a majority. But it shocked me.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Am I stupid? you have stereotyped a large number of people within your statements?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't answer the first question, but **I** don't think you are stupid. If you are not sure, ask your shrink ;-}. Oh no, don't ask a shrink, ask your kids and they will tease you with an unexpected answer: yeah daddy, you are stupid ;-}
Don't get me wrong - it's the same problem as with advertising budgets: 50% are a waste, but nobody can define which 50%. So it'll be hard to define the group.
But be honest - I said don't take it personally - didn't you meet and experience some representatives of the 'masses' as well, thinking 'oh my God'?
Let me explain: 6 representatives of a certain ethnic group came into a Pizza Hut restaurant, ordered food and drinks and left the place in an awful mess. But I have some friends who belong to the same ethnic group who are different. They are like you and I, except for a different tone of their skin or a different language. But my friends told me: hey, don't panic, they (the gang in the Pizza Hut) are the 'cheap mass' of our group.
See what I mean? They didn't know these people, they couldn't specify exact numbers. But they know how to address the problem and how to handle it.
All of us belong to a 'mass' - a larger or smaller part of it. Try to understand 'mass' as in what the industry calls 'mass media' -> dumb TV soaps aired to reach a specific audience -> a mass, not a critical mass ;-}
jens
jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de
----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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thank you jens and Mike for your replies and ideas! :-)
I, also, consider the computer to be a tool to use for art and communicating...I don't want everything else, appliances, etc...run by it either. But that's just me.
Well, I think I'll use MojoWorld---but perhaps not exactly as intended. Basically, in playing with it, I've discovered that I can't keep myself from modifying and changing the landscapes after they are designed...I always want to add other things, change colors and shapes with other aps, and so I guess I'll use it more like an alternate idea for some backgrounds in fantasy and sci-fi style art, which I have a bit of fun with once in a while just playing around.
It isn't enough for me just "as is", but I think it can be useful in ways, like other modeling aps, to help with angles and lighting possibilities and with different terrain structures. I think with using it in purely fantasy images I won't be causing anyone confusion.
Jens, I also have had extremely similar experiences to yours, regarding the total lack of compassion some individuals have towards wildlife---in my case I witnessed a car load of people actually try to run over an young gosling (goose) which was still just in downy feathers and had no ability to fly. It was trying to catch up to the parent goose, and they gunned the gas hard from a stoplight, on purpose, and actually hit the poor bird a glancing blow...fortunately, it was able to get up and headed back to the brush...but that cruelty I witnessed shocked me. I wondered how they treated people too. Another time, last summer, as a friend and I returned from town we found an terribly injured deer (from a car hit) laying in the middle of the road---still alive and in awful pain. It was the middle of the night on a lonely stretch of road, but neither of us could bear to leave her there even though it was dangerous for us to park the car by her to shield her from other traffic while we called and awaited the police officer's arrival. No one else had called it in. They just hit her and left. We tried to comfort her as best we could, she would lay her head in our hands...I can't forget the look in her eyes. I'm very glad we stayed with her.
Some will say, "it's just a deer, so what!"...
but it haunts me still how some can be so cruel, so indifferent to suffering. Where does that come from? I much prefer to think on the positive side of human nature and, thankfully, not everyone does these sorts of things, but it goes to show that the same behaviors seem to know no particular country's boundries. How common is it??? I hope it doesn't become more so... It is a shock to witness and quite disturbing...
Anyway--great discussion/ideas taking flight!
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya
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haha, I know I did not support the OT subjects that kindly in a fairly recent post, but...I must say this is one of the most facinating threads I have viewed and subsequently reflected upon... soooo, count me in on this one...
Though computer generated scenes are wonderful, they are not meant to replace Nature in it's natural form, but rather, to stimulate thought towards such and in the case of scifi, beyond such constraints that are evident even with nature it's self...though this one gets kind of sketchy the further in you go, as the very thoughts generated in order to envision such are derivitives of nature it's self, embelished with pieces from other such visions also which have stemmed from such, in one capacity or another, which sort of explains the instant identity one feels when gazing upon such...
The exposure to the source is ultimately the key from which any and all visions are open to further exploration depending upon the other sources within the mind and the vividness of the imagination enabled from said mind...the neuro transmissions which we percieve as realities upon concience recognition of such, are based upon a collection of images that we have been trained to and/or trained ourselves to see, each in a manner from which our individual lifes experiences have allowed for us to place relative interpretation of such, thus defining how we see things...
or not...perhaps it's as much to do with the left side vs the right side...haha...
but...non the less, and getting back on thread here, computer generated images stimulate growth of potential...the potential of allowing others to take a peek into the realities of another's interpretations...be this for creating a scene to attach to a potential sale of a new product or design, or beyond, to envisioning a world belonging to a different order of being...
Without new horizons the old ones would not be... or would they....guess that depends whether or not it is the human determining such or even belonging to such [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Somehow me thinx this would not be viewed in the same manner of importance if we were discussing a world inhabited by all other lifeforms, yet void of human existance... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
So yea, anyhoo... scenery generating software is not in direct competition with nature, except when it is used to allow humans to envision the replacing of nature via a developement project...in which case, I am not taking sides...haha...but I would imagine that it would be cool to design such...both in using the software to those extents, as well to physically visit such place before and after inorder to bridge the gap between the two realities...
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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Hi jen's, I hope I can address your direct questions towards me in a positive way now.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I agree, but we should define the word 'masses' first. 100.000 people are a mass in my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This wasn't directed at me but I feel it is important to address this statement, a sample taken from 100,000 people would represent a good average.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> didn't you meet and experience some representatives of the 'masses' as well, thinking 'oh my God'?
Let me explain: 6 representatives of a certain ethnic group came into a Pizza Hut restaurant, ordered food and drinks and left the place in an awful mess. But I have some friends who belong to the same ethnic group who are different. They are like you and I, except for a different tone of their skin or a different language. But my friends told me: hey, don't panic, they (the gang in the Pizza Hut) are the 'cheap mass' of our group. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First question, No, I haven't met any representatives of the masses personally, Although I have attended various lectures by whom I would consider representatives of a major population.
6 gang members are just that, members of a gang. Yes, I have met gang members personally.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ]I have seen Americans (sorry, I don't want to step onto your toes, don't take it personally, I think there are Europeans as well, but I've watched this in the US) arriving at a sightseeing point, jumping out of their car, pulling their camera up, taking a snapshot, rushing back into their car while the father said to the children: hurry, we can watch the pics at home, need to go to the next point now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The letter "S" on the end of a noun designates it as plural, meaning more than one.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As I said: it was one family, and I turned away back to the trails, unable to believe what I have seen. Certainly not a majority. But it shocked me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is not what you said but it is more realistic and I can understand how this shocking experience might skew your observation.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Did you notice that people prefer to be destructive than to be creative? Just look at the slaughter games sold vs. the creative apps sold in this world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some folks destroy everything they touch, it keeps the repairmen employed. I don't think that most people want to destroy tangible items they have collected over the years. The excitement of a video shooting game is more desirable to the youngsters verses a paint program because its got sound and action, The adolescent has a lot of energy to burn, shooting pixels on a CRT is one outlet for some of this energy and helps develop hand and eye coordination.
Art programs are more popular to a mature audience.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So please don't tell me the masses have brains. Most of them don't even want to think. Does it hurt to think? I don't know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to continue to disagree, every normal human has a brain. I don't think a brainless child would survive very long outside the womb.
As far as I can tell it doesn't hurts to think, a mental or physical disorder would impair the thinking process, some folks are just lazy and don't want to expend the required energy but I would have to say its is a minority.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But instead of using the Internet in a creative way to research and learn, guess what happened: the masses click the links to porn sites (in Europe more than 70% of the search engine requests). And can you imagine that these dumb idiots grab their credit card to pay big bucks for the content? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes there are those who exploit sexuality, it has been going on for centuries.
I don't use credit cards, I refuse to pay interest. Some people don't have that luxury because their budget exceeds there income.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't know. Maybe it will lead to that point sooner or later. Let's hope they abandon it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hope the research continues to progress in a positive way that can help. The responsibility falls on the parents to teach their children how to use technology in a manner that will benefit their life as well as the lives of others.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you are not sure, ask your shrink <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have a wonderful friendship with a very well respected Professor of Psychology at Florida International University, when she is stressed out I am usually the one she calls.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Try to understand 'mass' as in what the industry calls 'mass media' -> dumb TV soaps aired to reach a specific audience -> a mass, not a critical mass ;-} <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mass: Verb, crowds of people.
Noun, in this case: A large number, amount or extent.
As far as I can tell the soap opera's are directed at the unemployed housewife. There are not many unemployed housewives in this day and age. Myself I don't watch soap opera's, sitcom's, sports, etc...... it bores me to death.
I thank you for the entertainment.
Best wishes
[This message was edited by Mike Bailey on May 27, 2002 at 11:23.]
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jens life is incredible,just incredible [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Mike I dont think people are dumb,I think someone who could be termed as dumb is un inspired,of low self esteem or self confidence,but if you give these things back to someone or the opportiunity to re gain then I think most people would de dumb themselves pretty quickly.
There are two amazing stories I have heard of where blind people are involved.
1 - A woman here in NZ was classed as totally blind.The doctors tests showed she was blind,an MRI showed why she was blind,anyway this woman had been blind X amount of years,she wakes up early one morning to see her dog sitting on the end of the bed.She had regained her sight,somehow,the doctors cannot work it out,all they know is she was legally blind and now she can see,they have no idea how or why.
2 - I saw a program on TV where a legally blind woman in the US somewhere can paint beautfiul pictures,not mosaics or abstracts,but figures in landscapes and architecture,but they know this woman is blind.The reporter asked this lady how she could paint such beautiful work when she was blind?,she replied I can feel the colors.If you looked at this ladies work there is no way you could ever tell this woman was blind,just no way [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Another great story is of a NZ guy was climbing with a friend on a mountain here Called Mt Cook,anyway these guys get into trouble and both got frost bite,one losst both his legs and the other part of a hand and another bit I cant remember at this time.Anyway the guys never got tpo the summit.Last week this man climbed to the top of Mt Cook with just a guide,only he did it with 2 artificial legs [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Life can be anything you want it to be,it is up to you what you do with that gift.There is no such thing as impossible as these brave people show us every day of the week in all the countries of the world.
My personal belief is that the Para Olympians should get platinum medals,not gold,because they have to step that bit higher to get to their goals [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
I see CG and CG apps as entertainment as nothing can ever replace nature.For me I enjoy the challenge of taking nature on and having a go at reproducing something remotely similar,but only as entertainment [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
We need a philosophy forum [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Stu.
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Amazing observations Stu. I played guitar with a blind fellow, He was amazing. His hearing was so well tuned he could tell you the notes of any composition as he listened to it.
Who's dumb? I only know people with varying levels of expertise in a vast array of subjects.
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He sounds like a special guy too Mike [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
It was the lady who could paint whilst being blind that blew me away.I am just annoyed I cant remember her name so you guys could see some of her work.I mean how does someone who cant see draw a figure anatomically correctly,then paint in every piece correctly?????....I mean how?...I suppose its just like our friend the bumble bee,you know the one scientists like to forget about [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
It makes you wonder what a child could achieve if they were never told,or had any inkling that there was nothing they could not do.Makes me wonder if we would have lots of little Leanordos and Beethovens and Einsteins runnng around the world.
Also is every child born brilliant and then some slowly become less intelectual because of their experiences? I think we are all brilliant given the right opportunities and circumstances.I also think we are all good people everyone of us until an experience or tragedy changes us.A personal example for me was I learnt to hate Mislosovec {sp} with a vengance for his arrogant disregard for life,and having a high regard for life myself I could not get my head around his actions.Anyway one day I went to visit the doctor as per usual,and I picked up a magazine,a Readers Digest and it had a story about Milosovec.What I found out was this mans Mother hung herself,his father also committed suicide,his Uncle committed suicide also and he had any number of unpleasant experiences as a child.Dont get me wrongg I am not condoning even smallest thing he did,but after reading that article I kind of understood,it was because he had learnt a systematic devaluation of human life for all of his,which also explains why he feels he has done nothing wrong,but I am getting way OT now and dont want to bring politics into the thread at all,but I do have to say I found the article enlightening,but at the same time despite his experiences I still feel the world needs to be protected from such mindsets.
Stu.