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Plug ins and the meaning of life
There's been a lot of tittle tattle from both sides of the fence about the use of plugins recently, and it's an argument that has been going on for years. I know I have ruffled a few feather, unintentionally to be sure, but ruffled they have been, with my comments here and there. I just want to put them into context. Clearly I am posting this here because this is the plugins forum.
Many years ago when the WWW was in its infancy I used Usenet to communicate with other artists and designers. There were no such things as web designers in those days, just designers. I remember I was using a very early version of Photoshop, 2 or 3, I can't remember. And there were virtually no plugins available. If you wanted to achieve an effect you did it yourself using Photoshop's far more limited set of tools than we have available to us today. But you did it and you were proud of what you had achieved.
I remember that we would sometimes upload reduced-size images to one of the alt.graphic.photoshop newsgroups on our steam-driven 9600 hayes-compatible modems (14.4 if we were rich!). Quite out of the blue, drop shadows started to become popular. You couldn't do them in PSP or any other raster app that didn't have transparent, editable layers. Only in Photoshop could you create proper, anti-aliased drop shadows of varying size, blur and intensity, and even then there were people who had Photoshop but who could do them. No, I'm not joking.
And one of the most common questions that came up in the graphics newsgroups (after "can somebody give me a serial number for Photoshop?") was "where can I get a plug-in for those drop shadows". Well there weren't any at the time, not for drop shadows. Many people just assumed that this "trick" had to be a plug-in. And it upset a lot of people (yes, me included) who had paid for their software and had "served their time" as it were.
The situation is, of course, completely different nowadays. the world has moved on at a rapid pace and software continues to evolve to make some of the most demanding tasks possible with a plug-in. I myself have and do use plug-ins. In the "Taj Mahal" image below I used the Chrome plug-in. In the "Chocolate bar" image I used the XXP4 3D plug-in, and again in the "XARA out of bounds" image. But in the "Salt and Pepper Shakers" image which I did in 2001, there was no chrome plug-in or 3D filter used. because they didn't exist. We had to create our own chrome and metal effects. In fact I did a tutorial way back then to show how I created a chrome look, and I know Gary has done at least one if not more chrome and/or metal surface tutorials.
In the "Cricket" boxshot image I didn't use a single plug-in, although I have one now that I use in Photoshop which creates a boxshot effect in minutes rather than an hour as before. We now have stained glass plug-ins whereas the "Beetle on Stained Glass" image was hand Xara'd (and at the time there were a whole bunch of great 'stained glass' images from other people on this very forum). I love Gary's tutorials because he's been teaching people for 10 years or so how to use Xara's tools to create works they can be proud of without relying on plug-ins.
Yes, there is an element of "blowing my own trumpet" in this post. I'm proud of much of the art I create, although it's not to everybody's taste. And, yes, I readily admit to using plug-ins where, not to use them, would take three, four, five times as long. But what I'm also trying to say is that if sometimes some of us sound a little overbearing about the overuse and over-abundance of plug-ins, you could cut us a little slack. Why? Because we were around when to creating certain effects took hours of patience and hard work, effects which now anybody can create with a plug-in. And so much of that hard work, patience and talent from years ago has gone out the window, unrecognised.
Honestly, I want to be polite and well-meaning. But, sometimes it's not easy when faced with people who upload something to the gallery and it's obvious all they've done is taken some clipart or a photo and run it or parts of it through successive plug-ins. So if some of us display a certain lack of enthusiasm for that kind of art (yes, of course I accept it is art) then please, try to understand where we are coming from.
I know I will get lambasted by some people for writing this but at least I've said my piece and got it off my chest. I promise to try my hardest to be polite, I'll try my hardest to be silent when it calls for it, but I won't lie. I will always encourage those people who are clearly interested in honing their creative talents, and whereas making images that are largely the result of plug-ins might be creative, it requires no talent.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Well, this reminds me the debate between painters and photographers. Which one requires talent? I think you are wrong - talent is not required to master any tool no matter how hard it is to use, talent is required to "see" the picture you want to create. And if it is a real talent, the picture will be brathtaking. No matter how it is rendered - with oil paint or cameraphone.
It all depends on what author wants to demostrate when he shows his work on forum: the resulting image or the technique he used. In the first case it's the artistic value which counts and has to be commented, discussed e.t.c. In second - it's the level of mastering the tool. In first case it doesn't matter how the result was achieved, you shouldn't even ask, or if you ask, you shouldn't take it to account appreciating his work. In second case - the way he did it counts while the artistic value is irrelevant.
Sometimes there are mixed posts when author showcases both art and technique used. In this case you have to balance both values.
And finally, everyone is free to judge all posted on furums the way he prefers. So rising this topic is useless anyway.
BTW I think this has to be moved to OT forum since it clearly has a direct relation to some other threads there.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Frank, John - I've moved this thread to the Graphics Chat forum because it's more of a statement of position than discussion about Xara Plugins.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Quote:
Originally Posted by
covoxer
talent is not required to master any tool no matter how hard it is to use, talent is required to "see" the picture you want to create. And if it is a real talent, the picture will be brathtaking. No matter how it is rendered - with oil paint or cameraphone.
My you could have read my mind John.
the tools are the bike that you learn to ride
the talent is having somewhere to go to, that you can see
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Frank if in your work you can only see plugins as useful where they save some time then you are really missing out on the creative possibilities in image making that they can offer. They can be far more useful than just as time saving 'shortcuts'. You need to explore the creative possibilities and develop some new skills.
Regarding "talent" -- many people fail to separate it from 'skill'. Traditionally talent is something innate you are born with. The fact that someone can create appealing images is not at all indicative that they have any talent -- It is indicative that they have developed skills.
You could take almost any random person and sit them down in front of a computer for six months and have them complete every one of Gary's XaraXone tutorials. (Maybe it would take a year :D). The result would be a skilled illustrator and talent would have nothing to do with it. They would have been trained. With enough skill the person can draw whatever is asked of them and do it well. Others who haven't developed the skills (but could) will think of the person as "so talented" or "gifted". The person themselves might well start thinking of themselves as "talented" or "gifted" and develop a ego swollen head.
In our culture we tend to either want to feel superior or inferior to other people. The inferiority complex people will say "Oh I have no talent, I could never do that!" and avoid ever developing any skills. So ingrained can be this sense that they have "no talent" that they can't accept they could learn to do the same as the person they hold up as talented. It can be an excuse against ever even trying. Those who do develop some skills often fail to see that they are just that: skills. Instead they think of themselves as 'talented' and pat themselves on the back and stand a little more proud. They fool themselves into thinking they are 'special' or 'gifted'. Others saying things like "Wow, you are sooo talented!" reinforces that thinking that they were somehow 'gifted'. Being "talented" becomes an integral part of how they see themselves -- and sadly it leads to seeing others as lacking talent & inferior to themselves. It is ego-driven madness yet our culture pervasively supports the talent vs. non-talent distinction and it can be very wrapped up in how we see ourselves & others.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Oh well. I'll take my ego-madness and try to keep it in check. But there's one thing I've read that I must object to:
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Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
The fact that someone can create appealing images is not at all indicative that they have any talent -- It is indicative that they have developed skills.
I've never heard so much rubbish in all my life, Ross. The mere fact that someone can create images that are appealing, irrespective of the tools, means they have talent. Maybe not a talent for mastering certain skills, but a far more valuable talent - that of creating images that appeal.
Maybe in saying that I have shot my own argument in the foot but that is the point of discussion.
However, I will still stay away from the plug-ins forum because in the Xtreme forums you see people using whatever talent they have, however well they have honed their skills, putting their hard work and effort on display to be praised or critiqued by the rest of the members. In the plug-ins forum all you see is image after image created by pressing buttons and those few images that really do have creative merit are lost in the wave of "look what I did with this plugin".
Ross, I thought your Vespa image was beautiful. And that's not me sucking up to you. It's me saying I think the image was beautiful. But your image was a composition, not the result of taking nothing adding a plugin and thinking you have created "something". You can add whatever you want to nothing and the end result will still be nothing.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
I just reread my posting above. I note that I'm not trying to insult anyone. Those who see themselves as 'talented' are free to do so and although I don't buy into the whole 'talent' thing I respect that others will have very different viewpoints. Objectively it really doesn't matter if people see this subject differently.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
isn't tracing over a photograph basically a 'plug-in'
look at a photo to get the idea yes - but trace over it- gee how lazy can you get :eek::D
:p
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
My eleven year old son is told by his classmates & teachers that he is the best, most talented, artist in his class. It's been that way for years. Being admired in that way encourages him and keeps him interested. I have seen that getting to where he is today has taken years of very gradual skills development. It wasn't like he was born with talent - although he'd likely tell you he was. Told by others he has a 'gift' - he chooses to believe it.
He was the same as practically every other kid but was supported and nurtured in his early creative efforts. He found positive reinforcement when he drew and seeking that reinforcement he drew more & more and with that came the gradual improvement in skills. For other kids that reinforcement comes when they improve their ballet, music or sports skills and they can likewise feel there is something special they are good at. Something that makes them better - more talented - in that area than other people.
Like my son many of us grew up being told we were talented. It becomes part of who we are and how we see ourselves. That doesn't make it true. Sure there are some idiot savants who had a switch turned on instantly giving them skills that others never develop or would take many years to develop. Those are exceptional cases - most of us will never meet a true savant. The vast majority of those who think of themselves as talented or or who we admire/resent for their talent have taken years to develop their skills. Obviously some have an aptitude for learning certain kinds of skills more quickly but that too can be a function of how you learned to learn and generally how clever (IQ) you are -- it isn't talent.
In my experience the self-taught are most likely to buy into the whole talent myth. There own skills may have developed so gradually they believe they always had the 'talent'. Those who are intensively trained are more likely to be aware that you can have no apparent talent in a particular pursuit but -if instructed well and work hard- you can quickly catch up to those who already deemed to have talent. When I went to architecture school I was shocked that many of my fellow classmates had arrived with zero artistic talent. Most had drawing skills limited to drawing stick-men! Nobody would ever have told these kids that they had artistic talent and none would have believed they could ever do what they eventually learned to do with instruction and skill development. By the time everyone of these people graduated they could draw very proficiently. I'm sure it surprised them but it didn't surprise the instructors who knew that it wasn't about talent - it is about skills. Composition, colour, emphasis, observation, etc. are all skills.
My problem with the whole 'talent' myth is that in our culture we use it to put people up on pedestals or keep others (or ourselves) down. I have no problem with people being proud of their accomplishments. They should be. Saying you have no more natural talent than the next guy is not a put down. It does nothing to belittle someone elses accomplishments - in fact it serves to highlight that one's accomplishments are their own and not some 'gift'. Unfortunately most creative people, like those who participate here at the Talkgraphics forums, have so bought into the talent myth their whole lives, they are likely to not accept and be insulted by the idea that they have no talent -- even though they have zip! :D
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
interesting.....
'skill is being able to do something - talent is getting of your backside and actually making something of it'
way I see it
oh and a message for Frank from a friend: "the whole darn computer is a plugin to some ;) '
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Ross, I believe your thinking on skill and talent is very flawed. To avoid any confusion, here's my take on it. The most interesting sentence on that page is
Quote:
you simply can’t train for all the variables in any given job and talent is what separates the outstanding people from the average. Talent allows them to come up with the right solutions when things happen that are a bit out of the ordinary
Steve: "the whole darn computer is a plugin to some" is a valid point. But you could take that back to the develoment of real colours and pigments, and sable brushes, and acrylic paints etc etc etc. They're all plugins aren't they. They're all aids at the end of the day. But to say that Michelangelo was a skilled painter instead of a hugely talented artist is to do him a disservice.
"Isn't tracing over a photograph basically a 'plug-in'?" Sure, if you say so. But if it were that easy everybody would be doing it, and they're not. Why? Because apart from skill with the mouse or the tablet, it requires a good eye and enormous patience and persistence, all things that you cannot teach, and for those that stay the course the results are terribly rewarding and make most people stand back and gasp in amazement. You can deny that such work requires skill but no talent, but in that case you are saying that most people on Talkgraphics are both unskilled and talentless. Apart, of course, from those people who are "above such talentless reproduction".
Some people in an art class can sketch and it looks like something. Others in the same class sketch and it looks like nothing. What differentiates one from the other? Skill? I don't think so, and I don't think the rest of you think so either.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Big Frank
You can deny that such work requires skill but no talent, but in that case you are saying that most people on Talkgraphics are both unskilled and talentless.
no Frank - I am not decrying the skill and talent of anyone here - what I am saying is that these things as process are relative, it is the skill that matters not the process
talent is originality, knowing where to take your skill, which direction to go in...
and that ties in nicely with your quote - coming up with the goods when the situation is abnormal
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
You say "here's my take on it" but isn't that the site of Acland Brierty in New Zealand and not Big Frank in France?
Anyways, with regards to the quote:
"you simply can’t train for all the variables in any given job and talent is what separates the outstanding people from the average. Talent allows them to come up with the right solutions when things happen that are a bit out of the ordinary"
It seems to me that what Mr. Brierty is calling having talent is actually 'good judgement', and I believe good judgement -like talent- is not something you are born with but something you develop. Post-graduate Schools of Businesses for instance attempt to enhance both their students' judgement and analytical skills.
By the way I realize my view points on Talent are not common and I may never convince anyone I'm right. I just hope those among us who have used 'lack of talent' as an excuse to not try developing skills, will be encouraged to not hold back from trying. I'd also hope that maybe some inclined to dismiss others for their lack of talent might stop and consider that ranking oneself against others in 'giftedness' is kind of petty. If someone truly believe that God gave them a gift of talent more than others, why measure that gift against others? Instead maybe I'll encourage someone to be proud of the skills they have developed without it having to be a relative thing as 'talent' typically is.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
talent is originality, knowing where to take your skill, which direction to go in...
Talent as I define it is innate ability, often described as a 'gift'. Originality is just that: originality. I think you are thinking of talent as having a 'creative spark'. I don't deny that some people definitely have a 'creative spark' or 'flair' that makes them standout from the crowd. I just don't think that spark/flair is a 'gift' that you either blessed with or not. Instead I believe all children have the potential to have their spark but sadly most fail to develop it. Big Frank has a spark for developing the kinds of graphics he does. Had he been exposed to different nurturing perhaps that spark would have developed in say, mathematics.
I once read, or was told, that part of the reason the Senators were concerned about Julius Caesar was that he had a relatively unique ability to read silently. In the Roman period the vast majority of readers had to do it aloud. Caesar's 'talent' for reading silently made the Senators fearful that Caesar really was a 'chosen one' and it was threatening to them. It isn't to suggest this was a primary reason for drawing out their knives but perhaps a factor in their attitudes towards him. Anyways, today we realize that reading silently is just a skill (and not a unique gift) and young readers are pushed to develop the skill -- and your average seven year old masters.
In Victorian England young middle & upper class women were routinely educated how to embroider, draw, and do watercolours. The level of skills attained by the average student then would be characterized by most people today as extremely talented - yet almost every girl in that period had those abilities. Alas, today we can read silently but are lousy at the water colours! :D What we are taught today somewhat reflects the values of our societies. Artistic educations are not all that valued so when someone develops a higher level of skills we put them on a pedestal as 'talented' instead of just accepting they've developed more skills.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
no - I would agree 'creative spark' is not a 'gift' - nothing comes free
I think you and I more or less agree here Ross, just put it a bit differently
talent is much more judgement than skill - you do need the skill to carry it through of course
originality springs from a good knowlelge base and good judgement
so a lot of semantics, but common ground I trust :)
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
SKill....talent, they seem so similar to me. I've always felt that they both come from practice, drive, passion, a goal. If I were to try and differentiate them, I'd say skill is learned and talent is innate, but you can't have either one without passion.
I've read that many of the wealthiest business moguls were not the brightest kids in school; that they were average students. What set them apart was a drive to attain, succeed, create...a passion to achieve something.
If you have passion for something, you practice it. If you practice you become good at it. If you have a natural talent for it, it will come forth. You can succeed to your goal if you love what you are doing.
Handrawn...an honest opinion about drawing practices in Xara. You say that tracing around objects is laziness. I asked about this in the off topic and it seemed that it was not frowned upon but I read here that some do frown on it.
This reminds me of the debate over using your own models in your 3D work. Most people don't have the software, the talent/skill or time to make their own models. So they should not bother creating work because they bought the models? There's a million dollar industry sellling models crafted by other people so that those who can't can still create art. This industry would disappear without them.
In XaraX, if someone can't get proportions correct and struggle to draw straight lines, should they not bother creating in Xara? I can draw but there's always something 'off' when I do. I'm never satisfied with what I draw. I could spend a whole night worrying a drawing without ever getting past it to the actual creation of the image. If it's considered bad taste to trace, then I should just give up using XX now.
If only good golfers were allowed on golf courses, they'd be empty.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Burpee
Handrawn...an honest opinion about drawing practices in Xara. You say that tracing around objects is laziness.
:D I was being ironic Nancy - its not lazy at all
Frank implied plugins was lazy - so I just pointed out there may be some who, by the same token, think tracing is too...
you would have to be exceptional to do real photorealism without some tracing, so its perfectly all right
actually everything is perfectly all right just so long as its not theft [and otherwise legal too]
'it aint what you use, its the way that you use it' ;)
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Nancy (Burpee) - as you know there will always be others who don't like one's technique. Be it tracing, photo reference, bitmap fills/texturing, clipart usage, non-vector techniques, use of plug-ins, too-much-detail, too-little-detail, photorealism, not realistic enough, post-processing etc. etc. there are as many viewpoints as there are are individuals. We must soldier on! Actually I hope it isn't soldiering as we really must enjoy ourselves. Hopefully some others will enjoy what we produce but we can't invest ourselves too heavily in their opinions lest we get discouraged too easily.
If we live for the approval of others there are easier courses for us to take than creative pursuits. We could hand out dollars on the street corner and get lots of high-fives & smiles! :rolleyes:
There can be so much challenge and joy in image creation that we really can be satisfied without the approval of others. Sharing our work with others can be our gift but we have no control over how it will be received. As you are well aware, where we share it does correlate to what feedback we receive. Around here (at Talkgraphics) the support is generally positive as we tend to go out of our way to support one another (vs. knocking each other down as occurs at some graphics sites). Talkgraphics has been described as lacking in serious criticsm but that can be found at other sites. Here it seems to be more about sharing a passion. In that the level of skill doesn't matter much as we all can get something meaningful from participation. Those that can't move on - or take a break. :) By now you are probably realizing most of us here actually like each other. (I wish Big Frank would come for a visit in Prince Edward Island. I have no doubt we'd get along famously even if he believes in that stupid talent concept and I don't. :D).
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Thanks Handrawn. I was worried I'd have to take drawing lessons, lol.
Ross, wise words. You are correct, of course, we must create for ourselves. I tend to like approval as I've never had much self confidence. Since I don't have alot of dollar bills either, I'll have to learn to believe in myself without expecting others to make me feel good about myself. I don't think I need Dr. Phil yet, though :D
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Dr. Phil would probably say something like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Phil
Back in Texas we have a saying "When you're a wild young filly runnin in the sun you don't care about the old mares talkin in the barn"
(I've watched him too much! :D)
I've visited your site and enjoyed seeing the images you've created. I greatly admire your using them to illustrate your stories. I did find the site navigation needs your attention as you don't provide links back to the home page. If you'd like feedback from your site visitors consider providing contact info. You'll find you'll get really encouraging notes from those who stumble into the site.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
I can see this is going nowhere so I'll bow out.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
My humble (or not so) opinion (ignore as necessary, as any post here at TG).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
...talent is much more judgement than skill...
Good judgment comes with experience and knowledge (both which everyone can learn). It's not unique to "making pictures", it's part of growing up, professional sports and being a doctor etc.
Skill comes from sweat and hard work (or patience and persistence, as BF put it). It's not unique to "making pictures" either...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
...originality springs from a good knowlelge base and good judgement...
Alternatively, being completely insane... Alternatively, making choices based on personal experiences that the average individual doesn't possess... However, being "original" (whatever that means) doesn't automatically bring success either.
Talent is supposedly an existing ability since birth...
Ross' thoughts are (the way I understand it) that it (talent/being wired for "art") has to be nurtured to manifest itself. He believes (and I do agree (if I got it right...)) is that everyone "can" learn (if nurtured and encouraged) to create imagery that will make people throw around terms such as, "artist", "talented" and "original".
Sure, we are all wired differently... and process things differently... Some people will have to work a bit harder at it but everyone can do it (if they are helped along through instruction, really want it, or simply have to do it to eat, as in passing on an "artisan" livelihood, which as been done for thousands of years). There's no "magic" ability -- only hard work, encouragement and nurture.
People that say that they can't draw, never even tried to (or had to) work at it. Ask them and you will see there was always a teacher, parent or an "authority" figure that put him or her off (for my wife it was a grade school teacher). Some kids/people never really had a chance, and were declared failures before even getting half-way to point A.
Ross, I think you would really enjoy the book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell, where he looks at factors that "make" some people succesful. He covers everything from Canadian minor league hockey to Bill Gates. A lot of the "facts" comes down to "oppurtunity". Oh, he's books are not "new-age" or "self-help books", it's just a "topic" that he covers -- the reader makes of it as they choose.
It's an intreresting read -- I promise! His "The Tipping Point" is even better.
Risto
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Good grief!:rolleyes: :D
Every time I return to TG I see the same old arguments -- over the last 8 years at least! Well, it's all subjective. Get over it, people, get creative -- hit the drawing boards!:D
Observation -- that's a skill. My favorite hobby (astronomy) requires it...it's how great things get discovered and created. It's also what I've used since I could first pick up a pencil and draw my first lines with. We all can use it -- blessed with eyesight and/or hearing and all other senses -- and we can practice expressing what we glean from those senses in all sorts of ways = in art, music, dance, writing, performing, etc. We use these to communicate/share with each other...because that is what most of us are driven to do and is natural to us. We all have the innate talent for communication....the modes we use are just the tools.
Your artwork is for you, first and foremost, a way for you to express yourself. Make of it what you desire -- improve on your chosen abilities, or not, it is your choice. Don't let anyone put you down (not even the squirrels and mermaids) or listen to others who would seek to stifle your efforts because of their own "issues."
Just my 2 cents! :eek::D Arrrrrgh! (tiger - central closeup crop of a 24" x 36" painting in acrylics on canvas - not traced - studied a lot of tiger images, because I just like tigers).
---Maya
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Beautiful tiger, Maya. With reference to the same old arguments, I agree. The problem is all the members who joined later (myself included), for whom these arguments are still new.
Is is human nature to want to discuss these topics, some people just because they like a good argument.
When I joined these hallowed halls I made the effort to read all the posts over the course of a few months, and in doing so I got up to speed with the feel and shape of the place and its inhabitants.
Whenever I see a thread that becomes somewhat unruly, I tend to take a back seat. Spectate rather than play, as it were.
Your advice to "get over it, people, get creative -- hit the drawing boards!" is the way forward, but, we keep getting these pesky new members (and some not so new) who wade in to join the fun. :D
Saludos,
Bob.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Yes definitely the same old arguements from me but hopefully worded with a bit more skill in this round. One difference this time is its nice to see some support for the 'skills' side. If I remember correctly the first time the skills vs. talent thing came up it was only Klaus Norby who added his voice to the talent is a myth side. (Those Talkgraphics members who were around in the i/us days may remember Klaus and how far his skills could push the limits of what people thought CorelXara was all about. His old stuff is still very impressive -- you can see some on his website).
Maya - the tiger painting is stunning!
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Maya, love your tiger. I painted one in watercolors once but he doesn't have near the presense yours does...excellent.
I feel alot of guilt at having brought up the plugins issue but I really just wanted to know what was considered acceptable. I thought there would be an unanymous (sp) decision on it. I didn't want to make a habit of a bad practice since I'm just starting out with XX.
Instead I opened a can of worms. I feel responsible for that. As Bob said, it's the new people coming in and wreaking havoc in the ranks. Bad Nancy, bad!!!
Edit: Bob, I paraphrased...you didn't really say all that :)
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crow Haven
Observation -- that's a skill. My favorite hobby (astronomy) requires it...it's how great things get discovered and created. It's also what I've used since I could first pick up a pencil and draw my first lines with. We all can use it -- blessed with eyesight and/or hearing and all other senses -- and we can practice expressing what we glean from those senses in all sorts of ways = in art, music, dance, writing, performing, etc. We use these to communicate/share with each other...because that is what most of us are driven to do and is natural to us. We all have the innate talent for communication....the modes we use are just the tools.
Your artwork is for you, first and foremost, a way for you to express yourself. Make of it what you desire -- improve on your chosen abilities, or not, it is your choice. Don't let anyone put you down (not even the squirrels and mermaids) or listen to others who would seek to stifle your efforts because of their own "issues."
I couldn't have said it better, I agree with the above.
And what a beautiful painting of a beautiful predator !
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
No can of worms. In the Xara Gallery forum the basic rule is if you used Xara to create it, feel free to post it. It is likely that someone will share a kind word or offer some suggestions. It is rare (and frowned upon) to see a really negative response. The emphasis is on comradery & support and less on discerning criticism. Generally if people don't have something nice to say then they say nothing. It of course is likely that many people are biting their lips for the sake of good manners. None of us can expect everyone to like our work -- nor should we be expected to like others work. When you feel like making a comment please do. In looking through the Gallery forums you will find most of the comments pretty supportive. There have been members who have felt they should tell-it-like-it-is and point out crap when they see it. Such people tend to not enjoy the more supportive character and typically leave us to ourselves or get banned for bad behaviour.
Please feel fully welcome to participate in any of the forums. New members don't need to prove themselves or break into any cliques. You are among friends.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
got to say that, whilst I know what Ross is saying, the only thing that grows in a medium of constant praise is ego ;)
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Steve I'm just saying, like it or not, that is the culture around here as I see it. That culture has developed by the members (and less through moderation) over a relatively long time as this site -when it was the i/us forums- dates from the early days of the public internet. (Back in the days when a 14.4 dial-up modem was state-of-the-art hardware). There are members here who have participated here from those early days.
Talkgraphics will continue to evolve. If members want to start offering more constructive criticism to others I'd suggest they are welcome to do so.
Regards, Ross
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Thank you Ross. I appreciate the encouragement.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
:) this has wandered a bit from the topic :o
I agree Ross, encouragement is king.....
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Big Frank
it's obvious all they've done is taken some clipart or a photo and run it or parts of it through successive plug-ins. So if some of us display a certain lack of enthusiasm for that kind of art (yes, of course I accept it is art) then please, try to understand where we are coming from.
I hear you...
The other side of the coin of this debate is:
Try spending 50-100 hours on a manual piece and then to have someone very experienced say... thats obviously an auto trace....
Thats the flip side of this whole plug-in/advanced function debate...
There are causalities out there that have never used fancy plug-ins and auto functions ETC and never will....but will none the less suffer because people make off the cuff un-qualified assumptions ETC...
It is a shame in many ways as each new plug-in effect changes the rules of the game... moving the goal posts much wider apart...
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morphonius_821
Try spending 50-100 hours on a manual piece and then to have someone very experienced say... thats obviously an auto trace....
Been there, got the t-shirt. Humbug, humbug, humbug. For an experienced user to say that smells very much of sour grapes. So let them say it (again), I'm not worried, and nor is Javier, I think, after his magnificant Ninja drawing.
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Maya
Superb painting:) Really good details and the fire in the eyes. Class work. Well done.
Sammy
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
I think the underlying emotive fuel of such a debate as this is peoples innate human need to be recognized and applauded for their efforts...and the form such applause takes that causes friction and jealousy.
I.E... Some people are perhaps more old school and use more manual methods...
And others can often produce similar results with allot less effort through tools and processes that are more automated and newer etc...
So i would say it is understandable that these old school folk would resent being sidelined by being put in the same basket as others who are utilizing more automated processes and being compared (often by novices) as if it was and "apples & apples" comparison.... i.e taking a lay look at the results only...
But i think the real problem is not the plug-in but the desire of the individual to be recognized. If the individual is happy to take the praise of people who can't tell the difference... well i bet they were not complaining when the empty praise was raining down on them and they felt they earned it.
Now they see the same praise raining down on someone else who they feel didn't work as hard as them and they then resent it....
I understand it... its human nature...
but i don't think its a plug-in issue....it goes a little deeper than that.
its all about peoples emotional investments not paying dividends....LOL
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
Hmmmm..... I see the harmony in this forum! :cool: :D
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
I know so what he says.
I remember the days when you had to write your own script to get an internet connection and then wizards came and everyone could just enter the world wide web. I was appalled. ;)
And they had floppies, with programs on them , I had to type peek and poke
for my C=64 and record the end result to a cassette tape.(and find the typo's)
And cooking, I mean, everything in a jar, and precut vegetables, no more do they have the skill of cutting their own vegetables and meat. And they don`t hunt for their meat or search for their vegetables or mushrooms in the wild.
It is appalling. And who still builds their own oven or cuts their own firewood
for cooking? And they live in prebuild homes. No more cutting trees with the added pleasure of the possibility of being crushed by a tree.
I mean I could go on and on, how we have deteriorated.
Take arts, no more pen and pencil or brush, and if they still do, who makes
their own paint from raw ingredients? or goes looking for the ingredients?
And then computer arts, that undoing if you don`t like it, it is lowering the standards of true artists, with a canvas you have to know what you want to produce for there is no undo button on a blank canvas.(or you must paint one ;) ) So I exactly know the problem he is pointing at ;)
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Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life
:D:D
in a forum such as these it is natural, and desirable, that there should be debate about techniques
but the proof for me is always the proof of the pudding - does it do the job it was made for?
all the rest is introspective ...