Can I trick Google into looking more favourably upon me?

Hi

I recently redesigned an extensive website 'Songs of the Inland Waterways' which contains details of over 300 songs about the UK canals. Along the way I had amazing help from forum members.

Now I'm back having encountered another 'hiccup'.

Basically the 'front pages' of the website remain in the root directory but the songs are in sub-sub directories Songs/A/, Songs/B/, etc. The contents of each alphabetical directory are generated from separate Xara files and some of the 'reference' pages in the root directory are as well. Obviously only one Xara file creates the index.htm file (actually index.html for some reason I've now forgotten).

I began to notice that the website was not appearing in Google searches and realised that the sitemap file only listed a few pages. To get round this I settled on using the PRO Sitemap Service which generates a sitemap for the whole site daily which I can upload to Google as and when I wish. The Pro Sitemap Service was also very useful in tracking down broken links of which I had several.

The website now comes up more often in searches but not as much as it did some months or years ago. Using some Google tool or other I learnt that the site is considered not mobile friendly.

It was a great effort to rejig the site in the past few months and the prospect of creating mobile compatible versions of all the pages is too horrific. If I were to create mobile versions of the 'front pages' do you think Google might look more kindly upon me? Or does anyone have a better suggestion?

Thanks in anticipation.
Ian

I went to your site on my laptop and the pages I visited loaded quickly.

I looked at your site with my iPhone and it's really a hard job using it - you have no mobile variant. Everything is tiny.

I suspect ( but don't know ) Google doesn't like that you have no mobile variants.

In general I applaud the work you put into this - it's clearly a labour of love.

As a site it is all over the place in terms of design with menus positioned all over the place depending on which page you are on.

Ironically for someone wanting a better google ranking you didn't even put a link in your post and no link in your post signature. Google likes sites that other sites reference.

In terms of search results I'm not sure what the best search terms you should target. Most of your pages are very light in terms of content for Google to latch on to. I didn't spot a Google site reference in your page source - you should be using Google webmaster tools and submitting the site to be trawled by Google. Also use your hosting tools to see what pages are actually visited.

I hope someone gives better advice than mine.

Good luck.

[ In your place I'd consider contacting local radio/papers and asking if they'd like a special interest story/interview connected to a local waterway. They are always looking for stories/guests and would reference your website on their website and extend your reach and hits hugely. Just an idea. ]

Thanks Pauland

I'll take on board your comments.

There are basically three different menu arrangements with a vertical side menu on most pages and a horizontal arrangement on some of the introductory pages. The Song Menu page has its own alphabetical menu bar. I'll see if I can reduce that number. Old pages (with a narrowboat logo rather than a circular logo) still exist on the site and these have a different menu. These are still in situ so that links to them still work. I am in the process of adding redirection code to these but that will take some time before I've done them all.

I'm looking into producing mobile variants of the introductory pages but want to avoid having to do so for the 300+ song lyric pages. I've always thought these to be legible on mobile devices if you turn the phone through 90 degrees and view in a landscape mode,

https://www.waterwaysongs.info/index.html

In terms of search results I'm not sure what the best search terms you should target. Most of your pages are very light in terms of content for Google to latch on to. I didn't spot a Google site reference in your page source - you should be using Google webmaster tools and submitting the site to be trawled by Google. Also use your hosting tools to see what pages are actually visited. - I'm not quite sure what you mean by Google site reference - All pages should have a Google tracking code on them. I have been submitting the sitemap to Google.

Thanks again - though your advice to create mobile variants of all pages presents me with a tremendous challenge

Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanB

There are basically three different menu arrangements with a vertical side menu on most pages and a horizontal arrangement on some of the introductory pages. The Song Menu page has its own alphabetical menu bar.

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Users like consistency. I've had to hunt on a page because I couldn't see any menu because it was at the bottom. All pages should be consistent with navigation.

Quote:

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I've always thought these to be legible on mobile devices if you turn the phone through 90 degrees and view in a landscape mode

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..not on my phone - barely legible at any orientation.

Attachment 130275Attachment 130276

..and..

Attachment 130277

..easier to read!


Put the URL in your signature!

https://www.waterwaysongs.info/index.html

Thanks again.

Consistency is good. I'll aim to be more so.

I've started the process of creating mobile versions of the entry pages :
https://www.waterwaysongs.info/index.html
https://www.waterwaysongs.info/introduction.html
https://www.waterwaysongs.info/updates.html
I may change the menu button layout at a later date. Maybe I'll have to opt for a drop-down menu.


I'll see what can be done with the reference section next. Then the 300+ song pages which currently have a side menu. If the text if to be more legible this may have to be changed.

Ian

https://www.waterwaysongs.info/index.html

I'm waiting for someone to suggest I just zoom the page, but that should not be required to read text easily.

Unfortunately the big disadvantage that Xara has is that it does not use a templating system like Wordpress or a CMS based system, where essentially you'd just be designing four or five pages that would control the layout and formatting of your 300.

My opinion is that Xara is not well suited to sites with a large number of pages because there is no concept of templates or master pages.

Ian,

The main song menu might be better in a grid format for your mobile variant. I would be conscious too that the mobile font size IMO should be at least 20px. Text styles across variants is really useful here (e.g. Normal text desktop might be say 16px whereas you can set Normal text in the mobile variant to be say 20px).

The attached screenshot is from an AV demo (still WIP); it was derived through a piece of work earlier this year on audio plugins.

Attachment 130278 https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/JukeBoxv5/

In the demo only letters A & B are active, A has the option of immediately highlighting additional info about the song, where as B provides an info popup as an option.

Maybe some ideas to think about - 300 hundred pages in a shed-load of work; I would get the basic mobile framework sorted and tested on real devices, Android and iOS, before you plough on - best done entirely on a test site.

Gary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Initiostar

Ian,

The main song menu might be better in a grid format for your mobile variant. I would be conscious too that the mobile font size IMO should be at least 20px. Text styles across variants is really useful here (e.g. Normal text desktop might be say 16px whereas you can set Normal text in the mobile variant to be say 20px).

The attached screenshot is from an AV demo (still WIP); it was derived through a piece of work earlier this year on audio plugins.

Attachment 130278 https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/JukeBoxv5/

In the demo only letters A & B are active, A has the option of immediately highlighting additional info about the song, where as B provides an info popup as an option.

Maybe some ideas to think about - 300 hundred pages in a shed-load of work; I would get the basic mobile framework sorted and tested on real devices, Android and iOS, before you plough on - best done entirely on a test site.

Gary

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Excellent points.

Thanks for all the help which I will take on board.

I think I'm a bit too fond of my menu buttons but may have to jettison them. Also the side menu may have to be changed to the top or drop down. Also the videos will need to be resized. Also, also, also ...

There will need to be so many changes that making them on a parallel test site seems to be the way to go. I may be away for some time.

Ian

Though I have modified some of the introductory pages, producing a mobile friendly version and increasing the text size, I have come to a decision, for the moment, that creating a mobile friendly version of the whole site just to appease Google is not worth the effort.

There are many websites which were designed to be viewed on computer screens - this one - talkgraphics - being an example.

If users of my site are interested enough they may be prepared to turn their mobiles through 90 degrees and even zoom in - or get out a decent sized tablet - or blow the cobwebs off their laptop.

I've had enough of technological changes dictating what I should do. Now, where's that papyrus and quill?

Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanB

Though I have modified some of the introductory pages, producing a mobile friendly version and increasing the text size, I have come to a decision, for the moment, that creating a mobile friendly version of the whole site just to appease Google is not worth the effort.

There are many websites which were designed to be viewed on computer screens - this one - talkgraphics - being an example.

If users of my site are interested enough they may be prepared to turn their mobiles through 90 degrees and even zoom in - or get out a decent sized tablet - or blow the cobwebs off their laptop.

I've had enough of technological changes dictating what I should do. Now, where's that papyrus and quill?

Ian

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Ian I respect your decision and I understand it would be a huge amount of work to do otherwise.

It may be convenient to blame technology, but really this is about meeting the needs of your potential audience not bowing to machines.

Google recognises the importance of the mobile platforms in todays world, not because there are a lot of mobile phones but because for most people the mobile phone is their first call when it comes to looking for something and often people will just use a mobile phone rather than anything bigger. This is the world today. The man in the pub beside the canal is going to be told about some website that has lots of info about canal songs - he won't be pulling out a laptop, he'll be reaching for his phone and saying "I can't read that" and forgetting about the whole thing.

As a family if we have visitors around, if there is some subject we are discussing then phones are pulled out.

Your aim was to boost your rankings with Google to get more visitors. I stand by my original suggestions.

Technology is not dictating, it's simply how people live today.

Again, I respect and understand your decision, and I think that your situation highlights for others the importance of the mobile platforms in web design and accommodating mobile at the very start of a project is crucial. This is why there is a dominant mobile-first movement in web design for several years now.

Good luck with the project and mobile or not I'm glad to see your dedication and this information being available. In this niche subject I do think people will try a little harder to get past the frustrations of no mobile support.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pauland

Ian I respect your decision and I understand it would be a huge amount of work to do otherwise.

It may be convenient to blame technology, but really this is about meeting the needs of your potential audience not bowing to machines.

Google recognises the importance of the mobile platforms in todays world, not because there are a lot of mobile phones but because for most people the mobile phone is their first call when it comes to looking for something and often people will just use a mobile phone rather than anything bigger. This is the world today. The man in the pub beside the canal is going to be told about some website that has lots of info about canal songs - he won't be pulling out a laptop, he'll be reaching for his phone and saying "I can't read that" and forgetting about the whole thing.

As a family if we have visitors around, if there is some subject we are discussing then phones are pulled out.

Your aim was to boost your rankings with Google to get more visitors. I stand by my original suggestions.

Technology is not dictating, it's simply how people live today.

Again, I respect and understand your decision, and I think that your situation highlights for others the importance of the mobile platforms in web design and accommodating mobile at the very start of a project is crucial. This is why there is a dominant mobile-first movement in web design for several years now.

Good luck with the project and mobile or not I'm glad to see your dedication and this information being available. In this niche subject I do think people will try a little harder to get past the frustrations of no mobile support.

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I don't disagree with any of that. As a long retired teacher, latterly of Information Technology where the KISS principle was my mantra, I have to say that the relief when I no longer had to keep up with technology was palpable.

Twenty years or more ago I created a modest website in basic HTML which I hoped would stand the test of time because of its simplicity. Technological changes related to videos necessitated the recent complete overhaul of what is now a much larger site and as I modify it I worry that the site, which I hope to pass on to someone to maintain when I can do it no more, has too many quirks involved in its production and is now completely dependent on Xara software. I've nothing against Xara software and was a fan and user of the original Computer Concepts Artworks many moons ago, but I wonder where they are going and hope sincerely they survive in this increasingly chaotic world. The ability to print out the majority of the website pages directly or with minimal editing is certainly a useful aspect of XDPro which I may have to utilise in future if I am to preserve the site's content. It was one of the factors which made me decide to use Xara rather than update my HTML knowledge (probably an impossible and definitely painful task).

I agree that if I was starting to design the website from scratch I might look at designing a mobile version first. But not necessarily so. I spent a lot of lock-down creating a private family history website and spent some time thinking about page size. I can't remember what size I chose but the pages were designed (minus navigation buttons on a separate layer) so they could be printed on A3 paper (landscape format). This was so a paper copy could be handed to my family as the website will inevitably be transient in nature. The large size was necessary so family tree diagrams (albeit small portions thereof) could be accommodated. The site is perfectly legible on an 8" tablet held sideways but there is no way it could be viewed on a mobile phone.

I think making the introductory pages of the waterway songs website mobile phone friendly is a sensible thing to do at the moment so I'll concentrate on that.

Thanks again for taking the time to make your constructive comments.
Ian

Ian,

I'd like to suggest an alternative approach to some of your projects.

The problem with web design is that it is inherently transient because of shifting technology. I used to make my living building Flash-based websites and animation projects. web standards change and it's not really a suitable medium for long-term archival use.

Any technology-based medium is transient - how many VHS videos do you have in your cupboard (or more importantly VHS players to play them)?

So for longevity consider using PDF. If nothing else you will have access to a printed version. If you have an older demographic printable formats are also friendly for technology-agnostic people.

If you put your core stuff on PDF, it will always give you access to a printable version and always keep your core material in a platform-independent form. I have some graphics in software-specific format thgat I no longer have access to. That time eventually comes to all forms of software that use a proprietary format and it will happen with Xara.

Consider mixing a topical website - more bloggish - with a longer-term, more stable printable format viewable online and printable - PDF.

Generally speaking large information projects store their data in databases that is about their content not presentation, so they are able to keep current across technology changes. I used to have a client that had a couple of shops and I developed a flash-based website for them. They simply switched to HTML and their product database didn't change.

So essentially my message is that html (however generated) and proprietary storage formats are too transient for long-term survival. Be careful. I'll not mention the importance of backups, either.

The physical photographs and hand-produced notes and diagrams of today and yesterday will outlast their digital equivalents in most cases.

Paul

Paul

Thanks for your detailed suggestion - very many useful points made - and taken. I shall certainly be converting pages into pdfs which can be offered as downloads.

Ian

Ian,

I scrolled through the tread and there is IMO a sane and pragmatic approach to mobile. Personally, this is not about improving Google's view of your website; more about making the visitors experience more enjoyable.

I modified my audio player template to allow songs to be easily selected by alphanumeric song groups (the same as your current site); your pages for intro, ref and updates would be easy to transition to a mobile portrait format and you could use your own buttons too. I would though suggest the start point is a structure that lends itself to mobile and one that could be easily maintained. My start point would be to create an entirely separate development URL (e.g. https://mydomain/test) - relatively easy thereafter to expand the test site to have a desktop variant that transitions from portrait to landscape. You only make a switch when everything is working.

Attachment 130295 Attachment 130296 https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/SongBook/

There is a little bit of code in the Website HTML body, but I've stripped out the extras to keep it simple. I have assumed you have all your songs in a server-side directory; if true this template would work well - more labour intensive that technical. The links to the songs are easy in that you just change the source in the HTML code and insert your song titles in the links, page-by-page. Where the song has additional information, the structure allows one to place all this on a corresponding popup. This includes videos (which would benefit from some additional code) to ensure a video opens and closes correctly on a popup, per the Jukebox v5 code: https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/JukeBoxv5/ - Fairly straight-forward to add if and when required.

Here is a demo: Attachment 130297 - not fully tested as yet, but it would give you an idea. I have left the jQuery tag on the index page, though the striped-down version does not require it. There is probably a better way to manage the alphanumeric grid too, but I've not ventured that far.

When you have time take a look - it takes about 4 mins to add and test a song, but best use Notepad++ or similar to create the list of links.

Maybe some help for the future.

Gary

Hi Gary

Thanks so much for your work in providing me with a potential and probable way forward.

Though I've been resisting change partly on the basis that a lot of tedious work may well be involved, your suggestion looks really exciting and I will, indeed, be experimenting with it. The resulting site could be very impressive.

The need to present a good experience to mobile users is one I've been slow to appreciate but I certainly do now.

I think I've got a good winter's worth of work ahead of me. Clearing the loft may have to wait.

Thanks again to all who have offered their help and advice.

Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Initiostar

Ian,

I scrolled through the tread and there is IMO a sane and pragmatic approach to mobile. Personally, this is not about improving Google's view of your website; more about making the visitors experience more enjoyable.

I modified my audio player template to allow songs to be easily selected by alphanumeric song groups (the same as your current site); your pages for intro, ref and updates would be easy to transition to a mobile portrait format and you could use your own buttons too. I would though suggest the start point is a structure that lends itself to mobile and one that could be easily maintained. My start point would be to create an entirely separate development URL (e.g. https://mydomain/test) - relatively easy thereafter to expand the test site to have a desktop variant that transitions from portrait to landscape. You only make a switch when everything is working.

Attachment 130295 Attachment 130296 https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/SongBook/

There is a little bit of code in the Website HTML body, but I've stripped out the extras to keep it simple. I have assumed you have all your songs in a server-side directory; if true this template would work well - more labour intensive that technical. The links to the songs are easy in that you just change the source in the HTML code and insert your song titles in the links, page-by-page. Where the song has additional information, the structure allows one to place all this on a corresponding popup. This includes videos (which would benefit from some additional code) to ensure a video opens and closes correctly on a popup, per the Jukebox v5 code: https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/JukeBoxv5/ - Fairly straight-forward to add if and when required.

Here is a demo: Attachment 130297 - not fully tested as yet, but it would give you an idea. I have left the jQuery tag on the index page, though the striped-down version does not require it. There is probably a better way to manage the alphanumeric grid too, but I've not ventured that far.

When you have time take a look - it takes about 4 mins to add and test a song, but best use Notepad++ or similar to create the list of links.

Maybe some help for the future.

Gary

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Hi Gary

I have started developing a mobile friendly version of the website based on your jukebox player.

Attachment 130327Attachment 130328

Things are looking promising but I have a problem. It is to do with the two links from each song - the JavaScript code to play the song and the popup link to the information about the song. Currently it is possible to play one song while viewing the information about another. Or if you select the information about a song first then you can't play access the JavaScript button to play it. I can probably work around the latter by creating a duplicate JavaScript button but the site is in danger of having too many play buttons. With your detailed knowledge of the jukebox player, I wondered if you have a more sophisticated solution?

Thanks in advance,
Ian

Ian,

Fairly easy to have a single link that starts a song and opens up additional information (where it exists) about that song; this was a function of Jukebox v5 - select As for auto-show info. https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/JukeBoxv5/songgroupa.htm - select Bs for the separate info button.

Here you can close the information and still listen to the song, or I could change it so that when you close the information, it stops the song and returns you to the song list. This is the more technical upgrade where I am not using standard popups, but have chosen to give all the objects corresponding to that song, a class name. Then all 'class' layers are published as being visible, but are all hidden with code until required. If you can describe what you want, I should be able to modify the template. There's a neat way of managing videos too with Jukebox 5.

Gary

Thanks Gary

That's helpful. If and when I know what I'm aiming for I may be back in touch.

A bit of a variation from your jukebox has been needed as not all song files have audio files to go with them.

Couldn't have done this without your help.

Regards,
Ian

Ian,

You could start with the info page as a popup and place the link to a song where one exists on that layer; I'd guess you're headed in that direction. A cleaner way would be to make the popups 'class' layers (at least that's what I call them). That way you can have a single return link that stops the song and closes the info layer (cleanly), even when a video is playing! Where a song is not available you simply omit the note symbol.

Take a look here: https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/Waterways/index.htm || Attachment 130338

Gary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Initiostar

Ian,

You could start with the info page as a popup and place the link to a song where one exists on that layer; I'd guess you're headed in that direction. A cleaner way would be to make the popups 'class' layers (at least that's what I call them). That way you can have a single return link that stops the song and closes the info layer (cleanly), even when a video is playing! Where a song is not available you simply omit the note symbol.

Take a look here: https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/Waterways/index.htm || Attachment 130338

Gary

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Gary

I'll have a look at your suggestion and a good think when I've completely woken up. In the meantime here's a link to the (ever changing) test site which is getting close to what I'm aiming for.

https://www.waterwaysongs.info/Test/

Only the A menu works and there's just the one variant so far.

I've used a transparent button (with the javascript link to play the appropriate song) on the song information popups. This goes over the play button which would otherwise be playing nothing or the wrong song. A bit of a botch but it seems to work.

I'd be interested in your comments.

Cheers
Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanB

Gary

I'll have a look at your suggestion and a good think when I've completely woken up. In the meantime here's a link to the (ever changing) test site which is getting close to what I'm aiming for.

https://www.waterwaysongs.info/Test/

Only the A menu works and there's just the one variant so far.

I've used a transparent button (with the javascript link to play the appropriate song) on the song information popups. This goes over the play button which would otherwise be playing nothing or the wrong song. A bit of a botch but it seems to work.

I'd be interested in your comments.

Cheers
Ian

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Great start Ian,

You have a design question to answer before you head much further: a visitor can play a song and scroll through the other info popups while that song is playing (current status), or you could have the info popup retained until the the visitor stops the song (which is the mod I added in my last example - https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/Waterways/index.htm).

The route you choose dictates the logic that follows. In my example, I have reverted to giving objects on each popup a unique class e.g. songA1, songA2, songB1 - it is easier to manage everything as a javascript link, versus trying to use a mixture of Xara popup links and javascript at the same time.

As an aside, I have simply used another link on the popup to start the song, whereas you have uses the original play button (with the transparent overlay). The original play link was designed as an 'in-play' link which means you could pause the song and restart it from the paused position, rather than from the beginning.

In the later example I included the video code that you should add, otherwise at present you start a song, then start a video and have both audio tracks playing at the same time. The video code is now included - you give the video placeholder an id (as per the code) and then play, pause and stop functions can be applied in conjunction with the audio controls to pause the song audio while the video is playing - you can see this in action in the example when you pick the first song.

Once you settle on a way forward for the design question, it will be easier to sort out the logic that follows.

Gary

Attachment 130346

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Initiostar

You have a design question to answer before you head much further: a visitor can play a song and scroll through the other info popups while that song is playing (current status), or you could have the info popup retained until the the visitor stops the song (which is the mod I added in my last example - https://initiostar.co.uk/demo/Waterways/index.htm).

Once you settle on a way forward for the design question, it will be easier to sort out the logic that follows.

Gary

Attachment 130346

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Hi Gary

Having spent some time using your excellent audio player I, as you indicate, now have to make some decisions about how I want users to navigate the site. Though the ability to play the songs in a 'jukebox' with a simple but attractive interface has its appeal, there are many song pages with no audio files. Some pages have lots of additional information and some just a little. Many have video files, and some have multiple audio or video files. I am going to take some time to think about how to progress. Having the song information on popups and using javascript I don't fully understand might lead to problems I may not be able to solve. Having the songs on separate pages with just a simple audio player is something I can cope with and allows navigation through the songs alphabetically as users can do now. It gives me flexibility. I could see some of the SongMenu pages having 40 or more extensive popups! Separate pages may be better for loading times as well.

The audio player Menu design is certainly something I will utilise but the rest of the my site needs a good thinking about before I move forward in whatever direction seems best.

Thank you very much for all the help you have given with your audio player.

Ian

Ian,

Best wishes for whatever direction you take - a song per page is simple and I'm sure will work well for both mobile and desktop,

Gary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Initiostar

Ian,

Best wishes for whatever direction you take - a song per page is simple and I'm sure will work well for both mobile and desktop,

Gary

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Ian, as a footnote this is the menu grid structure on its own (no code in sight) - Attachment 130349

It has a song menu page that can link to each individual song page (where of course you can place any content). Each song page has a link back to the song menu page. This keeps it simple and avoids replicating the the song menu on each song page.

Two variants is enough; you can use text styles and share with variants to help with updates and formatting for text & graphics, copy and paste placeholders for songs and videos.

Might help with your thoughts,

Gary

Thanks Gary

Though there are still many decisions to be made I'm tinkering with the song menus which currently look like this :

Attachment 130351

Not a million miles away from your Jukebox menus.

Thanks again for your help and suggestions.

Ian