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Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Hmm... just after I had written the headline, I'm beginning to rethink it.
Let me explain:
Here's how I motivate lost... to me, Xara Ltd seems lost because instead of updating the now stale "galleries" and adding features to the object editing itself, and bringing the UI into the 21st century, they instead add photo editing capabilities... to a non-pixel based application... and multiple page editing... to a non-dtp application... it is, to me, like trying to grow a third leg and then run after as many customers as possible, in all directions at once.
Now to the lazy part. I'm always amazed by how the Xara community has continually managed to invent work arounds to counter the lack of development in the last, oh, five or so years. Without you, Xara would be absolutely dead in the water, I have no doubt. Just now, I asked about how to reproduce a feature in Xara which Photoshop has had for a number of years, and Illustrator has just gotten a more powerful version of. Xara can't do it, of course, but the work around managed! This makes me think that Xara Ltd believes that they don't really need to update their existing features. I mean, their customers find solutions where they haven't anyway, so why should they bother? The customers seem to put up with it, and on this forum, even be very happy about it (and very defensive in some cases). ;)
So, what does Xara Ltd do?
And here's where I came to rethink the headline...
Xara Ltd chooses to reward their most loyal amateur users (and yes, during the years I've observed this forum, most people here are ametuers, as opposed to a proffessionally employed designer, whether they think so or not), and do this by letting them engage in more amateur hobbyist activities in Xara, instead of forcing them to use other applications, which they come back here and claim are "not as easy and intuitive".
Xara cannot, and will not ever be able to professionally replace Photoshop.
Xara cannot, and will not ever be able to professionally replace Illustrator (or Quark for that matter).
However:
Xara IS about to be replaced by InkScape, if you compare development pacing.
And I was about to say that Xara was doing nothing to prevent it, but that isn't true, because the open sourced LX was a direct response. Though unfortunately, since it wasn't truly open source, it failed before it even took off. Still, I think I can claim that they, themselves, are doing nothing to their own application, in order to bring it up to date with modern UI and usability standards.
If they are, they are as tight lipped as Apple about it, but since they're not in Apple's position, I don't see how they think they can get away with that. Unless, of course (and this will most likely happen), the entire forum will now raise up in support of their actions. And when that happens, if no Xara Ltd employee speaks up against their fans, Xara X will never see more customers outside of their already established fans.
My conclusion is that the current Xara customer base is preventing them from moving onwards.
Thank you for taking time and reading what turned out to be a rather long rant. :)
EDIT: A consequence of this would be that my message to Xara fans would be that if you want to put pressure on Xara Ltd to grow, please stop posting workarounds, because although you are doing existing users a service, you are doing Xara Ltd a disservice by making them believe that they don't need to update their application!
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eobet
Xara cannot, and will not ever be able to professionally replace Illustrator............
Not necessarily true, I believe that there are one or two users on this forum who use Xara professionally in place of Illustrator.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
So only pros from now on, Xara can sell out to Micro$oftism, no probs :cool: :rolleyes: Does it have to replace anything? Can't Xara be Xara?
John
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ss-kalm
Not necessarily true, I believe that there are one or two users on this forum who use Xara professionally in place of Illustrator.
Yes, and I'm one of them. :p
The key word here, is "one or two"... ;)
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I think there are many ,professional designers or artists here that use Xtreme and do work full time in the industry.
As far as replacing illustrator, PS and Quark , I don't know if that is the goal of Xara.
This is like trying to replace gasoline powered automobiles with new more efficient electric vehicles. It could happen but, there are many things that need to change for that to happen and it wont happen very quickly.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
There's a lot of good artists on here, whether they are 'professional' artists or not is irrelevant in this context - it's the quality of their work on here and the help they generously give others from their depth of experience that matters.
John
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eobet
<snip>
Xara cannot, and will not ever be able to professionally replace Photoshop.
Xara cannot, and will not ever be able to professionally replace Illustrator (or Quark for that matter).
However:
Xara IS about to be replaced by InkScape, if you compare development pacing.
<snip>
Use the other programs or go work for Xara. They are not forcing you to use it.:mad:
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Eobet is only expressing his concern not trying to belittle Xara or anyone that uses the program.
Please respect his right to express his thoughts.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ted D
Use the other programs or go work for Xara. They are not forcing you to use it.:mad:
I don't think it’s a matter of using or not using what is an excellent product, it’s just the feeling that it isn't being pushed forward to keep pace with, or ahead of in some areas, the competition.
I've no quibbles with the DTP functions in xara, in fact they are very valuable to me, though I loath the very existence of the lamentable photo magic which is so well suited to pro photo work it hasn’t even got an eraser function. I thought that the pay off for having to have magic joined at the hip with xara is that there would be development of Xtreme. If that development is occurring a few leaked ideas as to what and when would be a courtesy to the users who have supported xara since the beginning. Serif who are threatening to overtake Xtreme with DrawPlus and who already have Photo, Web Creation and DTP applications are constantly appraising users and reacting to suggestions regarding future updates. A similar approach from Xara would keep people on-side and in anticipation of forthcoming updates.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Translation: Xara doesn't do what you want so now you decided to throw a hissy fit like a spoiled little child.
Nothing personal, just expressing MY opinion. :rolleyes:
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Please ......... There really is no need to keep quoting the whole of Eobet's post ..... We read it the first time!
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
If this thread is going to become a pissing contest I will simply close it.
Expressing my opinion. I had hoped we were all adults and could go without making personal remarks about an individual.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Robert (eobet) has voiced an opinion and some personal feelings to vent a little frustration and perhaps disappointment with an apparent staling in development of an application he clearly loves and cares about.
Keep it civil and respectful please.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I am a professional designer. I worked for 15 years as a print and TV advertising art director and after becoming a more honest person, I am now, among other things, a website and graphic designer. I use Xara Xtreme Pro about 99% of the time for everything I do.
That said, I agree that most of the users in this conference are hobbyists and amateurs. I started a thread several months ago, What is your day job, maybe someone can find the link. But even as hobbyists and amateur, the quality of work I have seen produced in these forums is as good as if not better than that of any other product, with the exception of Photoshop.
I can only speak for myself, but I have the complete Adobe Creative Suite 3 , Quark Xpress 7.2, CorelDRAW Graphics Suite X4, among other products installed on my computer (no I am not made of money, I review graphics software for Communication Arts Magazine and one of the perks is I get to keep the review software). But these products virtually gather dust on my computer because I just never have the occasion to use them.
I welcome the addition of more photo editing power. About the only Adobe product I use with any regularity is Photoshop. But if I can edit a bitmap to my satisfaction in Xtreme then that is pretty terrific.
Is Xara the best product in the world and is there no room for improvement? This is a very individual question and I am sure everybody has her and his own response to this.
But I do not think Xara is lost nor are they lazy.
Gary
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I found that this thread was locked.
I don't know by who or why, so I've unlocked it. I may be overstepping my Moderator privileges here but whilst I don't agree with Eobets opinions I believe he has a right to post them here.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Cheers Egg. I locked the thread after some unkind remarks were made about Eobet that did not contribute to continued discussion.
We can keep the thread unlocked for more discussion if everyone remains on topic and not try making disparaging remarks about an individual.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
My apologise Bill. I missed these comments.
Quote:
We can keep the thread unlocked for more discussion if everyone remains on topic and not try making disparaging remarks about an individual
Agreed
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
No apology necessary Egg. Perhaps I stepped in too soon trying to avoid an escalation that may never have happened.
All users of Xara products have ideas about how the development should progress. Some may become frustrated when things do not progress as quickly as they would have expected.
I saw that Eobet was trying to start discussion that may bring more people to express what they would think are important new additions to the program.
The February Outsider hints of news about new versions will be made next month. I assume that would be in the March Outsider.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Assuming that Eobet posted this before he received the latest copy of the Xara Outsider, it was very unlucky timing on his behalf.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
It will be interesting to see what changes and/or additions will be announced.
Eobet mentioned workarounds and how they possibly prevent people from wanting to have updates made to the application.
I know of no program that does not need some workarounds. Illustrator cannot support some of the transparency features I use daily. There are loads of other things Illy cannot do that I use but we don't need a long list repeating things that have been mentioned in other threads.
CorelDraw cannot support simple feathering and must be worked around.
Photoshop cannot export vectors and no work around is available.
There are somethings that Illustrator and Photoshop can do that Xtreme cannot. That is why they are still on my machine.
No one application will ever be the one and only application that does everything possible.
Use the strengths of each application according to your needs and accept their weaknesses as well.
I do not think that Xara has asperations to become a Photoshop replacement or to replace desktop publishing apps.
I do believe that the goal is to become the best application for what ever target demographic they have chosen.
No one application will ever satisfy everyone. There are far too many people with far too many needs for any program to provide them all. :D
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I don't know where Charles and Crew are taking Xara tommorrow. All I do know is that every change since 1.1 has improved my graphics tool of choice. When one is in the valley, it is pretty safe to trust the vision of the person on the hilltop. Every hill I have climbed, Charles and crew have been standing on a even taller one leading the way.
If one is in a valley and they desire to go over that low hill that looks easiest enough to climb but they fail to see mountain just beyond, then of course they will mumble and gripe when their guide points them to a tougher looking hill. A hill with no mountain beyond. I trust Charles and Crew to read the topographical map and lead xara where it should go.
I have faith that whatever direction xara is going, it will remain a tool I can use to further my professional growth and help my customers to achieve the tasks they need done in the most cost effective manner. Saving both time and money, thus increasing their bottom line.
This is just my 2 cents worth. I do not fault Robert for his viewpoint, but I do not have to heed his ravings either. Thanks for reading my ravings...:D
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I posted my opinion about the topic itself in this other thread while this one was locked, so I only want to say that forum moderators should always announce their reasons when
1) moderating user posts
2) locking threads.
There is of course solid reasoning behind decisions like these, and members/thread starters clearly have a right to know these, and in case of community moderators these decisions will sometimes questioned.
In other words, silent moderation is bad moderation practice.
In this case I thought it was Priester who locked the thread after posting in it, and it appeared very strange to me.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I am only a minnow.
One simple comment though - wouldn't the cost comparison come into the discussion. As I understand it many of the programmes mentioned are far more expensive than Xara.
I just appreciate this great graphics programme.
Rupert
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jon G
I only want to say that forum moderators should always announce their reasons when
1) moderating user posts
2) locking threads.
There is of course solid reasoning behind decisions like these, and members/thread starters clearly have a right to know these, and in case of community moderators these decisions will sometimes questioned.
In other words, silent moderation is bad moderation practice.
I agree completely with this.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jon G
...so I only want to say that forum moderators should always announce their reasons when
1) moderating user posts
2) locking threads..
Well, in this case it was (VERY) clarified a few posts down - in posts 15 to 18, and 12 and 13... Sometimes TG members/moderators misfire... It was fixed, wasn't it?
TIME is not limitless... PURPOSE is subjective...
Hence there are moderators to keep things OT. YOU want one thing... and other members (and visitiors/lurkers) want something all together different... In the middle there are moderators trying to keep things running smoothly...
No moderator here is paid a cent! Everyone volunteers their time (as time permits). Why not trust that moderators (TG members) are doing their best? Surely you don't think that Egg and Soquili are scum sucking slime... Dude, if you haven't noticed --- they unselfishly help people along every single day...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jon G
There is of course solid reasoning behind decisions like these, and members/thread starters clearly have a right to know these, and in case of community moderators these decisions will sometimes questioned.
Time is precious... Informing everyone about every single edit takes more time than anyone has... Seriously!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jon G
...In other words, silent moderation is bad moderation practice..
No... It`s just moderation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jon G
In this case I thought it was Priester who locked the thread after posting in it, and it appeared very strange to me.
AND... you were completely wrong... (it happens on occasion - when a thread is not really read)... If any one member has an issue with a thread being closed (or what have you) - email any of us - it willl be looked at. Really! There is no skating by anything here - all actions taken are looked at.
Risto
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
As for getting back OT as per this thread: http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthread.php?t=31463
The slicing and dicing point as per FLYsolo`s note is something I would like to see dealt with also.
As clarification has been requested - any future OT chatter will be deleted. Again, if you have a problem with moderation - PM me and it will be looked at by all moderators.
Risto
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
IMO, what Eobet has done by starting this thread is generally constructive and I believe that he generally wants the best for Xara and it's users.
I only wish that he would use more humility in addressing XX's abilities.
He has a history of being aggressive in his critisism only to look silly when others who are less 'professional' than himself explain suitable methods. This sort of confrontational attitude will always upset others.
As far as I can see Eobet doesn't contribute much directly to our understanding of the software. This is not a critisism, as I know that most professionals do not have time to be creative and are rarely paid to do so. With this, I doubt that most of it's users are professional. So such users are not as important as Eobet would like.
Users with less time restraints etc. are the ones who expand our knowledge of such software as others are forced to use the quick and productive 'tried and tested' formulas.
As another member pointed out, XXPro is cheaper than it's competition and so you can not expect everything, unless you want the price to triple. I think that there would be more protests if this were to happen as non professionals have to buy their own software.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Yes, I am very direct in my writing style, and I keep having to apologize for it, it seems.
I find it interesting though, that this thread is full of defence of Xara, while the other ("mature") thread is full of feature suggestions...
Neither thread has any criticism or debate regarding Xara Ltd's actions, though, which is what my main purpose was.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
It is only natural that some feel 'protective' of their favourite software and get irritated at the number of criticisms that occur, it is also only natural that many users are dissatisfied and want the software to develop in a particular direction and that newcomers want familiar tools, that's life. Personally, I admire the software, but have no 'brand loyalty' of any kind, I go the easiest route I can find every time.
Those who love Xtreme as it is, obviously have nothing to worry about, if you don't like any changes you can keep using the version you prefer, it's not as if you will be forced to upgrade.
As I said in the other thread, Xara seems to be doing pretty well in its target market, with or without major changes to the software, and I can't see any major change in strategy coming either. Certainly no such change has been signalled. But what do I know? Next month we could get the answer to all our dreams, how likely is that?
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Actually, it may be more likely than you think. Xara doesn't provide this forum, just because they are nice people. It provides them with valuable feedback on what the actual users want and need. It is entirely possible (although I admit highly unlikely) that all of "our" moans and whines have been addressed and we will be really happy ..... In my world it's also a free upgrade, but somehow I don't think that's going to happen either.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Personally, I've never seen ANY major piece of software that doesn't require workarounds. I've never seen one antivirus that catches everything, I've not seen any adware remover that catches everything. I've used photoshop and I know that it will do things Paint Shop Pro won't do. I also know that Paint Shop Pro will do things that the grossly overpriced Photoshop won't do. I've been using computers since 1980 and I've always had to have various similar applications that do slightly different things. Every professional that I've known (and there have been a few) has used several pieces of software to accomplish tasks.
Having said that, I'll say that I neither love nor hate Xara products so I think I'm unbiased. I've seen a few things I don't like about Xara but then I've seen things I don't like about every piece of software I've ever used. If only I ruled the world things would be done my way; but then everybody would find problems with what I wanted. It's an imperfect world full of imperfect things, As far as I know, we're free to use any software we want so why gripe about Xara? Simply uninstall it and forget that it exists.
regarding the aggressive tone of writing, people tell me that I write like I'm mad too, which I do but I can control it IF I want to, as I suspect most other people can too. The point is that a lot of people who post things in forums or chat do so because they want to be right. I came here from yahoo chat, where I'm well hated by a lot of people because I take a stand on what I believe, as I think everybody should (not hate me but take a stand). I had hoped this wouldn't be another snake pit where everybody stabs everybody every chance they get. I'm glad there are moderators here that have sense enough to maintain some civility and order. My last line is, if people don't like Xara, don't use it, bashing the company won't serve any useful purpose. I bought it because I need a vector based drawing application and Xara does that wonderfully. Sorry that was so long.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Risto Klint
Well, in this case it was (VERY) clarified a few posts down - in posts 15 to 18, and 12 and 13... Sometimes TG members/moderators misfire... It was fixed, wasn't it?
TIME is not limitless... PURPOSE is subjective...
Hence there are moderators to keep things OT. YOU want one thing... and other members (and visitiors/lurkers) want something all together different... In the middle there are moderators trying to keep things running smoothly...
No moderator here is paid a cent! Everyone volunteers their time (as time permits). Why not trust that moderators (TG members) are doing their best? Surely you don't think that Egg and Soquili are scum sucking slime... Dude, if you haven't noticed --- they unselfishly help people along every single day...
Time is precious... Informing everyone about every single edit takes more time than anyone has... Seriously!
No... It`s just moderation.
AND... you were completely wrong... (it happens on occasion - when a thread is not really read)... If any one member has an issue with a thread being closed (or what have you) - email any of us - it willl be looked at. Really! There is no skating by anything here - all actions taken are looked at.
Risto
I disagree with everything you said. If a moderator has the time to lock a thread, he/she also has time to input the reason.
Yes, of course I was wrong - for the reasons I already stated.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I agree with you, Jon. In addition, responses like the one you received make the mods look like immature children, protecting their territory. While I am sure they aren't, that is what it comes across as.
I was under the impression that moderation involved steering the conversation. Is there anything wrong with making the statement, "If this thread continues any further along these lines, it will be locked?" before locking it? That doesn't seem to be happening.
All said, TG's boards are still excellent, in my opinion.
David
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I cannot comment on whether xara the company is either lost or lazy.
Some long term users of xara can be lazy and get a little lost though :D
They can use the program for several years without realising the simplist of things, which as like as not means they never bothered to read the help files, or at the very least watch the help movies.
Some of these users I am sure have the mind set that all programs should 'function the same way' so they don't have to bother.
They will probably tell you they are far too busy getting on with what really needs to be done.
Which brings me back neatly to xara the company........
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
If this thread is going to become a pissing contest I will simply close it.
Expressing my opinion. I had hoped we were all adults and could go without making personal remarks about an individual.
Jon maybe you did not realise that I had closed the thread when I made the quoted post. I did say why I was closing the thread. At that point it appeared to me that people were going to start slinging slurs rather than having a discussion.
Moderators can post to closed threads. Sledger and Gary did not notice the thread was closed in their post immediately after mine.
Perhaps no one understood or read my post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soquili
Eobet is only expressing his concern not trying to belittle Xara or anyone that uses the program.
Please respect his right to express his thoughts.
I was trying to steer the thread back to a discussion but by post #10 an individual thought he had the right to sling a slur. That is when I closed the thread.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
I saw it Bill - it was clear at the time - then Steve [sledger] and Gary's posts confused things a little ;)
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
If it had been worded "As this seems to be becoming a pissing contest, I am closing this thread," it would have been clear.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Unfortunately we cannot always word our intentions to suit everyones tastes.
However, having said this, if this thread does not return to topic or continues with opinions about moderation/moderators and administrator 'modus operandi' - this thread will very likey be closed permanently.
Thank you
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Oh brother, here we go again. (Not you steve as you posted right above me.) :)
I think each of us views Xara through our own professional perspective. The hobbyist wants to doodle and have fun, the print designer wants to create logos, brochures, etc., the web designer wants the Flash and image slicing, and the artist wants to use a tablet and draw with xara as they would a paint brush or pencil.
I think we've been over the features we all feel are critical - http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthread.php?t=28407 :)
Xara has a following and niche. They are not, and I don't think they would claim they are, everything to all the professional types I mention above. They try to fold in the common tools they believe each might find most useful. I think they have done a pretty good job. As a professional, and not an amateur, I don't expect that it will be all things to me. I'm sure we each have areas we believe they could improve.
[deleted my own comments about us loyal amateurs in order to stay on topic]
As for my self, I own and run a design company with several people working for me as well the occasional contractor. I consider myself professional although I might not be the designer of the moment. I'm extremely busy and rarely have time to look through TG. I give two thumbs up to the mods for as much time as they devote to TG.
Just note though, it's one thing to make an analysis of Xara the company and the Xtreme product. It's quite another to make it personal by jabbing at the community of users. Let's keep it civil.
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Re: Is Xara Ltd not only lost, but also lazy?
Xara will never please everyone and if every wish for it was implemented - if that were even possible - the program would be yet another piece of bloatware. I'm sure Charles Moir takes heed of these wish-lists, I think we ought to let him get on with it. He's not done too badly in a competitive market up to now has he? Although I can understand Obet's point I don't really see CM rubbing his hands in glee because people on TG are saving him hassle by using their brains to create work-arounds for shortcomings to which all programs are prone.
As has been stated, if someone doesn't want to upgrade they don't have to - unlike some other programs Xara doesn't mysteriously degrade :)
PS "I give two thumbs up to the mods for as much time as they devote to TG. Just note though, it's one thing to make an analysis of Xara the company and the Xtreme product. It's quite another to make it personal by jabbing at the community of users. Let's keep it civil."
Agree totally :)
John