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Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Dear Charles and Xara Team,
you've asked for some comments...
Believe it or not, I still have Xara X1 installed on my machine, next to Xtreme Pro 3.02. Now there is Xtreme Pro 4.0.
X1 comes with a footprint of around 10 MB on my hard drive, X4 with 116 - that's a whopping 12 times as large! That much more for just multiple pages and text columns?
And all the stuff that's installed which I don't need or want at all - not really:
Photo Editor - now there are **2** different editors. I don't need a photo editor, because I already have three great professional photo editors (PhotoPaint, LightRoom and LightZone).
3D? I already have two 3D CAD systems (Cinema 4D and Rhino). A simple 3D function isn't good for a software with the term 'pro' in it!
And now I have yet another movie player I don't need or want.
Question: even though I understand that some people **might** like those features and the Xara team obviously doesn't want to offer a modular based kit (basic version, add / pay the modules you really need!), this is my biggest wish:
Please give us an installer which let's us choose which parts we want to install! Please, please, please!
I would be very happy again if I could deselect the installation of the movie player, the 3D option, the web function, the two photo editors!
I've just produced two large 80 page photographic books about Andalucía with Xtreme Pro 3.02 and it's multi page function - they are both perfect, really. And for those projects I really don't need the photo editors - they are just bugging me, because when I drop an image to the workspace and - working very fast - double click the image, the photo editor will start, forcing me to wait for ages because my images are around 13.200 x 8.800 pixels large (that's a whopping 130 megapixels from large format scans!). Please give us an option to disable the automatic pop-up of this pesky amateurish photo editor!
Please Xara , do something with these issues. It really shouldn't be such a big issue to modify the installer to give us a choice!
Other than that, try to optimize the code as you've done in X1 - small, fast code and not bloatware: not everyone of use wants to invest into new hardware...(I'm switching to Mac now because I can't stand Windoze anymore and definitely Vista is the wrong way to go).
Thanks a lot for listening and hopefully a better installer very soon - you'll win another happy pro user to upgrade to version 4.0 or 4.1 if you'll include these options.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
the xpe is a darn irritation
if you use notepad to create a dummy file [eg: oops.exe] and in options tell xtreme to open with this instead of xpe, then you will get an error message straight away [slower the first time maybe] click ok and on you go.
this is a lot quicker than waiting for xpe to open [forever] :D
there is away to avoid even the error message - but I forget :o
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Hey Jens - It's been a long time. Welcome back. :)
But maybe you are not the typical user?
I agree that there are other products that do things better, such as Photoshop and AutoCad 3D Max (at $4000).
I have Photoshop CS3 installed on my computer and yet I use X4 for about 90% of my photo edits. It is very convenient. And having the ability to do some 3D extrusions is handy too. As imaginative people like Mike Sims have shown with Xara 3D, you can do some really incredible things.
The new text wrap feature (repel text) is quite excellent and there are some other nice upgrades in the Text Tool such as the ability to preview different fonts, styles, and sizes for an entire page of linked text areas instantly. And very useful features like HTML Export. This feature is not a reason for Adobe Dreamweaver to worry, but if one is creative and inventive, one can do some really neat websites with out ever leaving Xara.
I agree the file size has grown. A lot.
But when you and I first started working with Xara, a 100 MB hard drive was a luxury. Now you can get 4GB flash memory on a removable USB stick for $25 US. Storage is cheap. Why not use it?
It was not long ago that I wrote an article on the 216 web-safe colors. But with today's monitors, who cares?
As my idol Bob Dylan once sang when you and I had dark hair, The times they are a changing. :D
Good to see you my friend.
For those of you who don't know Jens, check out his 2003 Featured Artist Gallery.
Gary
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
A standard XXP4 installation, before you download all the videos is about 100MB. (~ 1/10th of a gigabyte)
This amount of diskspace costs around 2 - 3 US cents to provide on hard disk.
It is hopelessly misguided to suggest that Xara should spend time writing and supporting a significantly more complex installation so that customers who are prepared to pay a few hundred dollars for the software should then be spared on the order of *one cent* in storage costs.
I seriously doubt that you guys who still shovel coal into your computers are going to be able to persude sane software developers of the strength of your cause or the value of your market segment.
Allowing the developers of your applications to stop fretting about disk space is one of the ways you can free them up to make better software.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
thanks Gary for the link - some top class illustrations there Jens - 5 star work and no mistake :)
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gwpriester
But when you and I first started working with Xara, a 100 MB hard drive was a luxury. Now you can get 4GB flash memory on a removable USB stick for $25 US. Storage is cheap. Why not use it?
It is not a question of cheap storage space! Your answer, gwpriester, comply the level of this board and its software, sorry pal. Because harddrives getting cheaper, there is not necessity to fill them with poor written software.
I cannot understand why it is not possible to write good working software finaly? We use computers for nearly 30 years on this planet, we fly to the moon and build up an international space-station out there, but working with computers is always a pain in the ass! Why we cannot get well written software, bugfree with high usability? I really hate to handle lots of bugs with every upgrade. Xtreme like other software on this planet getting worse with every new release.
Tell me guys why does Xtreme needs many thousands of registry entries, while Maxons Cinema 4D for example needs one or two and that software is by far more efficient than Xtreme? After installation of Xtreme your computer is not the same anymore. I better do not want to see Xtreme's source-code - it is surely a nightmare!
I wish I could articulate all the anger I feel inside, but english is not my native language.
It is really, really sad, that there is no good working vector-graphics-software out there! As I came to Xtreme a couple of years ago, I liked it small size and its speed. But now it is bigger than Adobe's Illustrator 10, which I use on my machine, and its speed is gone long ago.
As soon I find an alternative software I will switch and never come back to Xtreme.
I give the Xtreme developers some advices: Do NOT put more and more so called features in your software, because some amateurs demand them! Instead get rid of all the bugs, make your code better and develop a userfriendly Interface.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
willdean
It is hopelessly misguided to suggest that Xara should spend time writing and supporting a significantly more complex installation so that customers who are prepared to pay a few hundred dollars for the software should then be spared on the order of *one cent* in storage costs.
To get the money to buy Xtreme I have to work for my customers and I have to do it clean and accurate to satisfy them. I think it is understandable, that I expect the same behaviour in the opposite direction. I expect to get well written, functionally and clean software with my money, but Xtreme is far away from that.
It is not a question of storage costs, but a question of funcionality and efficiency!
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
But I'm not sure why you think that disk-space, which is essentially free at this sort of scale, is a useful guide to quality.
The real negative consequence of a feature being added which you don't want is *not* the disk-space which it uses, it's that the developer who added that feature wasn't doing something which you'd have preferred. That unwanted '3d extrude' icon / lame picture editor / whatever has cost you basically nothing for the diskspace, and basically nothing in performance if you don't use it.
What is has cost you is that the guy who was doing the 3d extrude wasn't doing something you'd have preferred - whatever that is - everyone on here has a different list of things they'd like.
Writing a multi-option installer, and forever supporting the 2^n different installations it results in, has just the same opportunity cost - the guy that's writing the installer is not doing anything more useful to you.
Your best hope is to ask for the features you do want, not fixate on complete irrelevances in a way that might risk people wondering if you use a lot of green ink. Personally, nothing I've ever asked for in here has ever appeared in the product, but let's at least try to be constructive...
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Hi Gary,
thanks for the 'welcome back' !!
And geez - when I read the year 2003 I almost fell from my chair. So much time passed by, it seems as if it was a month or two...<sigh>
Of course you are right (as always) but my point is Xara could give us a choice at least during installation. So anybody who 'wants it all' just clicks 'typical', all others click 'custom' and can deselect the movie player, the photo editors, the movies, the help files, the 3D, the html export...
It wouldn't be a burden for the coders, just a modification of the installer. A very simple task IMHO.
Maybe Charles will show a heart for those die hard 'untypical users' who don't need software features to make a 'living by design' :D
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
I am not against new features. The problem with Xtreme is the same like Nero Burning Rom: The developers added more and more features which have nothing to do with the core funcionality. At the beginning Nero was a software for burning CDs, now it has features to rip and edit Audio, encode and cut movies etc., etc. But all these features do not do their job very well and the software wastes more than 100 MB harddisc-space and thousands of registry entries so you need special knowledges to get rid of it, if you decide to uninstall it.
The same with Xtreme: with every upgrade there are more and more new features which do a poor job, while all the bugs and usability flaws still remained. For example the HTML-page-feature! Isn't Xtreme a vector-graphics-software? If I'd like to build HTML-pages I get a software, that do this effectively. The websites, generated by Xtreme are worst - the code is worst - unusable, if you want quality.
Look into the forum! There are bug reports over bug reports. A software, that produces so many bugs after a new upgrade cannot be named well written. But there is no need to read bug-reports, a single look on the wasted amount of harddrive-space after installation tells you the quality of the software. I know what I am talking about, because I am part of the IT-business and I have learned to program.
In germany we say: "Schuster bleib bei Deinen Leisten!", which means you should do, what you can do best.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
I know what I am talking about, because I am part of the IT-business and I have learned to program.
Thanks for that. I have printed it out and stuck to the door of my office.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
................a single look on the wasted amount of harddrive-space after installation tells you the quality of the software..................
Oh, and can you please tell me how much of the hard drive space is "wasted" after installation.
As far as I am aware all it tells you is how big the program is. There is absolutely no way you can tell the quality of a program by it's size. That's a patently absurd statement.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Willdean, please try to be a tad more realistic. Arrogance is the wrong approach here.
Don't forget: the hard drive in my computer - however big or small - is **my hard drive** and **I** want to decide what will be installed there and why and when.
If you don't know how to respect the wish of a client/user, you've failed to do your homework, really.
And please don't hijack this thread - it's too important for me and I guess several other clients/users as well.
Thank you very much willdean for doing me this favor.
With kind regards / Con saludos cordiales / Mit freundlichen Grüssen
jens g.r. benthien
industrial design & engineering
photography & photo design
tel: +34-649-086-913
jens@sacalobra.com
skype: sacalobra
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
It's difficullt to recognise Xtreme V4 - the well behaved software on my hard disc - in terms of the crticism levelled at it. It's not perfect, I've complained myself, but it's hardly the demon software that some would make out.
In my case I learned to program and then joined the IT business and I can say that most companies would be envious of the software produced by Charles & Co.
Bug reports for a beta program are hardly an unusual situation and to be expected. There is very little software out there that doesn't have bugs or usability issues and I would say that Xtreme is better than most software in this respect.
Paul
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
You can't always tell by program size.
By THAT measure, most M$ products must be totally worthless!
:D
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ss-kalm
As far as I am aware all it tells you is how big the program is. There is absolutely no way you can tell the quality of a program by it's size. That's a patently absurd statement.
Sure, there is a direct relation between size and quality of a software. It is quite clear, that more features expand the size of a program, that's not the point, but be honest: isn't 116 MB for a software like Xtreme too much? In the past whole operating systems needs less space a did much more than Xtreme do. And this is the point! The size of Xtreme has no proportonality to its funcionality. And this is exactly what I mean: when a software has lost the proportonality between its size and its funcionality - it is poor written.
I have learned to program as storage wasn't as big as today. I've learned to think about an algorithm twice to make it strong and effecient. In that days we fought for every byte. I can remember that I use a CAD-software that days that fill a couple of KB and did alot 2D and 3D calculating and drawing! Much more than Xtreme can do today!
Another example: The software-program that drives the spacecraft voyager 2 is about 40KB. And what does it achieve in comparison to Xtreme! It drove this spacecraft out of our solar system!
So think about it! The problem of today is, that many, many software-companies put their software together in a rush and bloat it. There are no good designed algorithm, but Spaghetti-Code everywhere. The result are bugs and patches and patches and bugs and updates and upgrades and crashes and reinstallations and so on. We, the users accept that too easy, but in the end this is not good quality.
Unfortunately my english is very poor. I hope I could explain my thinking.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DanDaBear
You can't always tell by program size.
By THAT measure, most M$ products must be totally worthless!
:D
That's what it is! You all know about the quality of MS-Software - it is crap, oldfashioned crap! But the bad quality of MS and many other software-companies should not be a measure of software-quality. We should do it better.
And there are some companies, which do it better than MS. For example Mozilla and its Firefox. This is a great browser, much better than Internet Explorer and more secure and much more up to date and it is only half as big as the Internet Explorer.
Opera - another great browser - do it better than MS too. This browser is the securest and fastest today and it is only 33% as big as Internet Explorer and has much more features and better web-standards compatibility.
You can see it here too: bigger software in relation is in most cases worse. The Internet Explorer has the most bugs and security issues of all browsers and it is the biggest!
In most cases a software is bigger, because its code is worse.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
In most cases a software is bigger, because its code is worse.
This is not helpfull talk for this thread.
I would like to see less volatility and bikkering.
If you wish to lighten the load, you can delete the movies from your installation which will relieve you of 91.2 MB of consumed HDD space.
I don't think Help & Support can be regarded as bloated coding?
C:\Program Files\Xara\Xara Xtreme Pro 4\HelpAndSupport\ENG (or your chosen language)
X1 didn't have Help & Support movies included.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
Another example: The software-program that drives the spacecraft voyager 2 is about 40KB. And what does it achieve in comparison to Xtreme! It drove this spacecraft out of our solar system!
NASA's budget could be a little bit larger than Xara's.
Xara is hiring new programmers, so if you can improve things, I'm sure we will all benefit. Personally, I would love a mac version of Xtreme.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
...The problem of today is, that many, many software-companies put their software together in a rush and bloat it. There are no good designed algorithm, but Spaghetti-Code everywhere...
Feel free to improve Xara's codebase yourself. Not many companies are willing to let you do that. (And I doubt you'll find much inelegance there if you look.)
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jens g.r. benthien
X1 comes with a footprint of around 10 MB on my hard drive, X4 with 116 - that's a whopping 12 times as large!
In the same time-frame, HDD capacities per dollar have probably increased three or four times as much. Maybe you need to update your thinking if you still worry about every little kb.
Quote:
Other than that, try to optimize the code as you've done in X1 - small, fast code and not bloatware: not everyone of use wants to invest into new hardware...(I'm switching to Mac now because I can't stand Windoze anymore and definitely Vista is the wrong way to go).
So, apart from the obvious, "so why would you care what happens with a Windoze-only application", I'll tell you that I think you're making an ill-informed decision. The only people I can recommend Mac to are those who don't push the limits of what their computer can do or those who need something that is Mac-only, like Final Cut or Logic. You should do some testing before you switch because I would be very surprised if you get anywhere near the viewport performance in Cinema 4D that you are used to.
I think you'll find that a lot of the extra space it takes up actually contains useful stuff like clip-art, fonts [which generally seem to take up a lot of room these days], help movies and such. When I was using X1, I would definitely have taken the time to remove stuff like that because I only had two 2Gb HDDs but my current laptop has 160Gb and my workstation more than 1Tb of storage, so I don't see the problem. Even if Xara is using more memory now, my PCs have four to eight times more RAM than they did back then, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
there is away to avoid even the error message - but I forget :o
Its easy - don't double-click an image. I think that might have happened to me once or twice, ever. I blame my own ineptness for those occasions, not Xara.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
It is not a question of cheap storage space! Your answer, gwpriester, comply the level of this board and its software, sorry pal. Because harddrives getting cheaper, there is not necessity to fill them with poor written software.
I cannot understand why it is not possible to write good working software finaly?
I am sure that is not the issue. Earlier versions of Xara did not install any clip-art or fonts and things like the help movies had to be downloaded before you could watch them.
Even if that weren't the case, what is the advantage in wasting development time saving HDD space when it is so cheap? It would be like a car manufacturer trying to build a more spacious car without increasing its dimensions. It would require a lot of effort when the simple solution is to widen the track or increase the wheelbase. As long as it fits in a lane and you can park it, it really isn't relevant, is it? Surely as long as the user experience is slick, it is of no consequence how many lines of code are used? So why waste time that could go into putting in more improvements and features?
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We use computers for nearly 30 years on this planet, we fly to the moon and build up an international space-station out there, but working with computers is always a pain in the ass!.
Really? I find my PC to be one of the great joys of my life. I love it and it requires a lot less maintenance effort than any of my other great joys, I can assure you. e.g. I spent three hours on Saturday afternoon washing and cleaning my car and the only thing I got out of it was a clean car. OTOH, I spent 5 minutes installing Vista SP1 last week and my computer now runs measurably faster than it did before.
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It is really, really sad, that there is no good working vector-graphics-software out there! As I came to Xtreme a couple of years ago, I liked it small size and its speed. But now it is bigger than Adobe's Illustrator 10, which I use on my machine, and its speed is gone long ago.
I think this is mostly in your mind. have a look at the Xtreme.exe - PRO 3.2 was 6.85Mb, the new one is 9.5Mb. So for all the cool new features, I've had to sacrifice less than 3Mb of my 160Gb HDD. How is that any kind of issue at all?
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I give the Xtreme developers some advices: Do NOT put more and more so called features in your software, because some amateurs demand them! Instead get rid of all the bugs, make your code better and develop a userfriendly Interface.
I think Xara already has a very user-friendly interface - it is simple, elegant and extremely powerful. I really can't think of any way it could be greatly improved. Sure, there will always be tweaks that could be applied but the basics are very solid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
willdean
But I'm not sure why you think that disk-space, which is essentially free at this sort of scale, is a useful guide to quality.
The real negative consequence of a feature being added which you don't want is *not* the disk-space which it uses, it's that the developer who added that feature wasn't doing something which you'd have preferred.
Finally! Someone with a brain in his head. Hallelujah!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
I am not against new features. The problem with Xtreme is the same like Nero Burning Rom: The developers added more and more features which have nothing to do with the core funcionality. At the beginning Nero was a software for burning CDs, now it has features to rip and edit Audio, encode and cut movies etc., etc. But all these features do not do their job very well and the software wastes more than 100 MB harddisc-space and thousands of registry entries so you need special knowledges to get rid of it, if you decide to uninstall it.
I would disagree here. I have used most of the functionality of Nero over the past year and at times it has been a life-saver [when I had to create a DVD with menus for my showreel in a hurry to get a job]. It has saved me from having to spend money to do something I only need occasionally.
With Xara it is even less true - everything in Xara is relevant to design. If you want to pidgeon-hole it so narrowly, that is your problem and I am really glad that the company has a little more vision than that.
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The same with Xtreme: with every upgrade there are more and more new features which do a poor job, while all the bugs and usability flaws still remained. For example the HTML-page-feature! Isn't Xtreme a vector-graphics-software? If I'd like to build HTML-pages I get a software, that do this effectively. The websites, generated by Xtreme are worst - the code is worst - unusable, if you want quality.
This is, for me, an excellent example of exactly the kind of vision I appreciate. Xara has taken a process that involved a lot of fiddling around - exporting dozens of individual graphics, placing them in an HTML editor, testing, going back to Xara to tweak things, refreshing the web-editor, trying again, etc, etc. Now I can lay out a page, export once and get exactly what I was after. I can finally now take PageMill off my system, which gives me back more HDD space than the new version takes away. So I'm back in front!
The bottom line is that the less often I have to switch applications, the easier it is to do a first-rate job and to let my inspiration guide my work.
Quote:
Look into the forum! There are bug reports over bug reports. A software, that produces so many bugs after a new upgrade cannot be named well written. But there is no need to read bug-reports, a single look on the wasted amount of harddrive-space after installation tells you the quality of the software. I know what I am talking about, because I am part of the IT-business and I have learned to program.
This is a no-brainer for me and none of it comes close to making Corel or Illustrator or anything look like an alternative. There are a few issues I have but I see it as the price of progress and I am more than happy to pay it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jens g.r. benthien
Don't forget: the hard drive in my computer - however big or small - is **my hard drive** and **I** want to decide what will be installed there and why and when.
So where does that end? What if I want to be able to choose which tools are compiled into the application? Maybe I don't need any transparency tools but it would be absurd to think that I should have the choice to install that functionality or not. You choose to install Xara or you don't. beyond that, I have no interest in how much space it takes up with clip-art, fonts and movies that I know I will never need or use. As I said, I think you need to modify your expectations. If its really an issue, take a look at your installation and remove what you don't want. e.g. There is a 146mb of clip-art and 35Mb of fills, if you desperately need the space that will just about halve the size of the installation. Take out all the templates and themes and you'll get a little more space. but why would you bother? By the same token, I wouldn't like to see the developer's waste their time on such trivial stuff, any more than I would waste my own time removing it after the fact.
I'm with pauland, I see almost no resemblance between what is written here and my own experience. Xara is slick in every way that matters to me and has no more bugs than anything else [and I use some very expensive software].
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
I give the Xtreme developers some advices: Do NOT put more and more so called features in your software, because some amateurs demand them! Instead get rid of all the bugs, make your code better and develop a userfriendly Interface.
Hmm our money is different from your money in what way? ;)
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
I am not sure why people both knocking xara when any new version comes out. If you don't want it don't buy it, stick with what works for you. I personally like the fact that xara keeps developing their software. If they put something in their that I don't use what the heck someone else may love using that part. I never use the flash but I think it is good it is there....taojones
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dón|Olivierč
Look into the forum! There are bug reports over bug reports. A software, that produces so many bugs after a new upgrade cannot be named well written. But there is no need to read bug-reports, a single look on the wasted amount of harddrive-space after installation tells you the quality of the software. I know what I am talking about, because I am part of the IT-business and I have learned to program.
In germany we say: "Schuster bleib bei Deinen Leisten!", which means you should do, what you can do best.
I don't care if it has even many bugs, most software has some, but I care more how fast the company fixes them. Let's not forget that computers
come in very different variations of hardware mixes.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankhor
Hmm our money is different from your money in what way? ;)
I'm not in the 'anti-amateur' camp at all but there are significant differences in the *amount* of money people spend on hobby software and the amount they're prepared to spend in business. I agree it's the same kind of money, but the size of the pile does differ.
Nobody running any kind of credible business in Western Europe or the USA would even pause to think about spending a couple of hundred dollars on a decent bit of software (except possibly to wonder if its low price was a bad sign). I don't think everyone on this forum can spend their own money like that, though.
All the sane people around here are aware that Xara's progress is terribly constrained by resources (developers/money). I suppose some of us in the "would buy a hundred dollar upgrade just get the basic drawing improved" camp feel a bit sad that we've been passed over in the allocation of these scares resources in favour of the "would like to try an different panorama program to the one which came for free with my camera" camp.
Of course, if there are twenty times as many 10 dollar hobbyists as there are 100 dollar commercial users, then Xara know exactly what they're doing. That's entirely plausible...
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
willdean
Of course, if there are twenty times as many 10 dollar hobbyists as there are 100 dollar commercial users, then Xara know exactly what they're doing. That's entirely plausible...
Apart from everyone paying more than the 10 dollars, I actually think that's the situation. Naturally, I don't actually know..
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
As sad as it is, only Gary understood what I meant. What's wrong with an installer that'll give the users a choice of the installed components?
I really give a damn on what you think about the code or if the storage space is just a cent or less per MB - all I want is to be able to have it MY WAY.
I guess none of you superheroes would accept glibbery kidneys as a breakfast in a 5 star hotel - you want a CHOICE, and you certainly wouldn't debate with the cook an how to prepare kidneys.
Nobody likes being forced to do what he doesn't like, not even you.
Got the idea now?
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Jens, most, if not all of us understood what you meant. It's not as easy to do as you might imagine and I'm pleased Xara haven't wasted their time on it.
Yes, we get the idea. As the stones would say "you can't always get what you want". I'd move to another hotel, but then again I don't frequent five star hotels, nor are Xara charging five star prices for their software.
There are several features I'd like in Xtreme, several features they've put in that I'm not bothered about. I'll live with it because it's the best at what it does even if it's not as good as it could be. When something else comes along that's better and I can afford it, I'll go with that.
BTW I'm not upset about html generation, picture editing or 3D extrusion despite having a raft of Adobe CS3 software that does those things, plus a dedicated 3D modeller.
For some reason I use Xtreme rather than Adobe Illustrator. I wonder why?
Paul
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Jens - fair enough, and we got it honest.
But well, you've posted on a public forum and looks like you've opened a can of worms :eek:
Discussion is free and provided no-one get's way out of line and starts abusing others, I think it should continue as it is, but with a little more tolerance and objectivity from everyone agreed?
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jens g.r. benthien
What's wrong with an installer that'll give the users a choice of the installed components?
What's wrong with it is it has a cost - it costs money to develop and it costs money to support. Every time Xara spend time and money on one feature they're not spending it on another.
Every on/off option you provide in the installer DOUBLES the number of different configurations people have. The application would also have to cope with funtionality which might or might not be present.
You might think that such costs are trivial, but supporting software is fantastically expensive, and one way to try and control this cost is to keep all your users' installations as similar to each other as possible.
Engineering is all about trade-offs, and however much you wish things to be different, I seriously doubt you're going to persuade anyone that trading a cent's worth of your customers' disk-space against even a single support incident is worthwhile.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
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Originally Posted by
jens g.r. benthien
As sad as it is, only Gary understood what I meant. What's wrong with an installer that'll give the users a choice of the installed components?
Because it might mean some other new feature doesn't get done. You think its trivial but there is no way to know as installers are often tied to licensing systems, which will be different for 32-bit and 64-bit, etc, etc. I understand your point completely, I just wouldn't consider it worth starting a thread about, let alone devoting very precious resources to implementing.
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I really give a damn on what you think about the code or if the storage space is just a cent or less per MB - all I want is to be able to have it MY WAY.
And you do. You have Xara when you could have chosen any one of dozens of other applications instead. You installed it exactly where you wanted it installed [if you bother with stuff like that] and, as a percentage of you overall storage capacity, I imagine it takes up far less room than the first version you ever installed. In effect, Xara already takes up far less space than it once did, yet you want to be able to configure it in ways you were not able to previously.
I think there are far more pressing issues around installation. I still have to go through and re-do all of my preferences every time we get an update. I used to complain about it here but nobody else seemed to mind so I never pushed it. Now I just do it and don't let it get to me, but I still see it as a more pressing issue than an insignificantly small amount of potentially useful extra data that I might never use being copied to my HDD during installation.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
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Originally Posted by
willdean
I'm not in the 'anti-amateur' camp at all but there are significant differences in the *amount* of money people spend on hobby software and the amount they're prepared to spend in business. I agree it's the same kind of money, but the size of the pile does differ.
Depends on how many amateur users you have.
I am an amateur and I spend the same amount as you do because
I also bought the PRO version, because of the extra possibilities.
And yes, expenses for your business are tax deductable and you can bill
them to your customers, eventually. ;)
But I can understand you as a businessman want a pure business version.
But some other (small) businesses find the extra stuff usefull?
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Nobody running any kind of credible business in Western Europe or the USA would even pause to think about spending a couple of hundred dollars on a decent bit of software (except possibly to wonder if its low price was a bad sign). I don't think everyone on this forum can spend their own money like that, though.
All the sane people around here are aware that Xara's progress is terribly constrained by resources (developers/money). I suppose some of us in the "would buy a hundred dollar upgrade just get the basic drawing improved" camp feel a bit sad that we've been passed over in the allocation of these scares resources in favour of the "would like to try an different panorama program to the one which came for free with my camera" camp.
Of course, if there are twenty times as many 10 dollar hobbyists as there are 100 dollar commercial users, then Xara know exactly what they're doing. That's entirely plausible...
I don`t know what they are aiming for, I know Magix, and they aim
the 'amateurs' and professionals too. Just depends on the package you buy.
And if I had more money I would buy more software, but I don`t, so I stick to Xtreme, affordable with a lot of features.
You might have the money to diversify in your software, but I need bang for my buck ;).(Untill I win the lottery ofcourse )
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Paul, sorry, but to modify an installer is like editing a batch script, for a good coder it'll take half an hour max. including the compilation into a msi file.
I don't talk about the code or what could be done to it, just the OPTION during the installation. So hard to understand?
In contrast to most of the other users here I'm solution oriented. I'm not requesting actions that require large funds or investments. I'm not talking about modifications of the core code or the executable.
Just the plain and simple modification of several lines in the installer.
I'm not a professional coder, but if I would be able to extract the installation routing I'd modify it myself for my specific purpose.
That's kids stuff or child play, really.
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jens g.r. benthien
Paul, sorry, but to modify an installer is like editing a batch script, for a good coder it'll take half an hour max. including the compilation into a msi file.
Editing a batch script is one thing. Testing and re-testing it works as expected is another, as is having all the little features you want to select or deselect in separate files so they don't get installed.
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I don't talk about the code or what could be done to it, just the OPTION during the installation. So hard to understand?
Jens, you confuse non-compliance with your requests as failure to understand. That's certainly not the case.
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In contrast to most of the other users here I'm solution oriented. I'm not requesting actions that require large funds or investments. I'm not talking about modifications of the core code or the executable.
They still have costs and effort involved with them and they would be incurred for something that has very, very little demand.
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Just the plain and simple modification of several lines in the installer.
There's a lot more to it than that.
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I'm not a professional coder, but if I would be able to extract the installation routing I'd modify it myself for my specific purpose.
It's interesting how you value your time compared to the cost of hard disc storage.
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That's kids stuff or child play, really.
Err.. No.
Paul
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankhor
if I had more money I would buy more software, but I don`t, so I stick to Xtreme, affordable with a lot of features.
You might have the money to diversify in your software, but I need bang for my buck ;)
You'll still use Xtreme no matter what's installed on your hard-drive.
Paul
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
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Originally Posted by
BONES
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Originally Posted by
handrawn http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
there is away to avoid even the error message - but I forget :o
Its easy - don't double-click an image. I think that might have happened to me once or twice, ever. I blame my own ineptness for those occasions, not Xara.
It is only too easy to do by accident for those of us who are less clever or agile or whatever - that is the point - it should have been optional.
It is a common complaint - however as xpe is on the way out - not a problem for much longer :)
Only trying to be helpful - I don't remember blaming anyone - it's just a pain for us ordinary 'less able' mortals
Like right click duplicate copy - should also be optional
Maybe what we really need is a mouse click program like we have for keyboard shortcuts in pro ? ;)
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
I actually prefer XPE to the integrated version..
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jens g.r. benthien
I would be very happy again if I could deselect the installation of the movie player, the 3D option, the web function, the two photo editors!
I actually tend to agree with Jens that a little granularity in the installer would be a good thing and not that difficult to implement; but only for items that are not tightly integrated with the core product.
Externals such as photo editors (XPE, Magix), movie players, the 3rd party panoramic editor, etc would seem to be relatively obvious choices. The new 3D option would seem to be more tightly integrated with the guts of Xtreme and not so easy to exclude, IMO.
However, it would be interesting to know how much drive space would actually be saved by such options, if drive space is the real issue. I could be wrong, but I can't believe that the HTML export filter (for example) consumes much in the way of resources...
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
Heh, heh. :rolleyes: You made quite a reappearance, Jens. We have not had such a spirited conversation since Klaus Nordby left the conferences in a huff many years ago. :D
I think every Xara has a different opinion. It is human nature.
Many don't think web page creation is a useful addition. But I have received dozens of e-mail messages from new users who want to learn how to create a WYSIWYG website. And about 1/2 of these people upgraded or bought Xtreme for the first time.
But to Jen's point, having the option when you install to do a Typical or Custom install is a good thing. And that was the real point of the thread.
Sorry to interrupt. Carry on with the thrash. :D
Gary
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Re: Xtreme Pro 4 way too big!
I'm about to go away for a couple of days, so I'm going to miss it.. :-(