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need help with jpeg compression
I just had to reinstall psp9 on a new computer running vista. My problem is even when I set the jpeg optimizer to its lowest setting the size of my jpeg file goes all the way from 4 megs to about 600kb just by making a minor change and saving. I don't believe any of my files were compressed this much before I reinstalled to vista...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
I forgot to mention..I've even tried importing my photo as a tiff and doing corrections then saving as a jpeg and my jpegs are still compressed from 3 or 4 megs down to 600-700 kb....Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Hi - welcome back
jpeg will always compress - whatever the setting - how much depends on the file content
its a 'lossy' format
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Ps - are you resizing them? - that might make a big difference...
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
No resizing just a slight adjustment using a smudge brush. After importing the raw file into psp as a jpeg I have a 3 or 4 meg file but after a slight adjustment it compresses to 600-700 kb which seems a lot to me and even when I import the same photo as a tiff and do the adjustments when I save as a jpeg it still compresses just as much...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
This is normal. As Steve said, JPEG is lossy compression.
For web use (where smaller files sizes are best) 75% quality setting is usual, 100% quality gives the least compression and larger files.
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
What my point is I take a raw 11 meg photo file and export it as a 57 meg tiff file in psp and do a minor adjustment to the tiff file and save as the highest quality jpeg and I end up with an700 kb file which may be ok to post to the web but not if I want to print a large photo....Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
what's wrong with printing from a tif? - the tif format is intended to be printed from, jpeg never was..
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
When you say 4 Mb, is this what you see on PSP's status bar or on Windows Explorer?
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
PS - if file size is an issue, you could try saving as .png - that compresses without loss and usually prints photos fine..
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coningham
When you say 4 Mb, is this what you see on PSP's status bar or on Windows Explorer?
The 4 mb is what is shown in psp .
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
What I really don't understand is I never seemed to have this problem until I had to reinstall psp 9 on a new computer running vista so I wonder if vista could be the problem...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Quote:
Originally Posted by
robertj298
What my point is I take a raw 11 meg photo file and export it as a 57 meg tiff file in psp and do a minor adjustment to the tiff file and save as the highest quality jpeg and I end up with an700 kb file which may be ok to post to the web but not if I want to print a large photo....Bob
You won't always end up with a 700kb JPG from a RAW. I depends a lot on what the picture contains.
None-the-less, RAW is (practically) fully uncompressed data directly from the sensor without any in-camera processing having occurred.
So think of RAW as 'expanded' if you will.
Yes JPG is lossy because it throws away data that we pretty much can't detect by eye. But if you are using 100% quality setting (effectively zero compression) then the result should look perfectly fine.
Unless you resize it (dimension/resolution being smaller than the original) then the print size won't be any different from a tiff of the same res..
I doubt very much you will see any difference in when printed either (given the correct dpi)
Quote:
I never seemed to have this problem until I had to reinstall psp 9 on a new computer running vista so I wonder if vista could be the problem
It's not a problem, it's a result and no, Vista doesn't have a hand in it at all.
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Ok I am now certain something is wrong..Some recent portraits I took and lost with my old computer I luckily still had on my memory card. I redid these raw photos and processed in psp 9. These are the photos I'm talking about being compressed so much. Well today I was lucky enough to retrieve my data from my old hard drive. The same photos that are 700kb that I just redid are 4 or 5 megs on the old hard drive processed in psp on my old computer so something has to be wrong...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Curiosity has hold of me now, so I'm going to have to ask if you could possibly email me one of the RAW files and your resulting 700kb file please?
Use sledger [at] gmail.com thanks.
We'll try to get to the bottom of it ;)
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
did you change the chroma sub sampling setting? [or Exif?]
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Worth checking out..
EXIF in my PENTAX dslr RAW images are as little as 3kb, not even worth considering stripping it really (if that's what you mean't??).
However, the same 9.67 MB 3036x2020 px RAW file run through PSP's optimizer at the settings suggested by Bob gives me a file 7.46 MB with EXIF and 7.43 MB without EXIF. Change the compression factor to 25% (75% quality) the file becomes 560 KB without any change to the resolution and without any noticable artifacts.
Chroma sub-sampling isn't recommended (as commented in the optimzer wizard) yet I chose 4x4 2x2 2x2 which resulted in an image size of 4.14 MB, however it failed to display in any viewer.
As asked earlier, I'd like to see the RAW file and the 700KB file which Bob created from it. I'm certain I'll find an answer if I do ;)
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
you are the expert on camera/RAW Steve not me :D - I just threw it in in case - didn't really think Exif would make a difference, but was not sure about chroma - thought if that had been changed previously and was now back to default it might be a factor?
also of course in PSP9 you can simply save a jpeg [ and as a jpeg2000 also] rather than run it through the optimiser, would that be different?
be useful to see the file, agreed
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Heres what I'm working on now. The original raw file was 8.25 megs. The old jpeg file I recovered off the old hard drive was 4.68 megs after some adjustments were made. If I import the same file into psp now it shows as 2.78 megs doing nothing to it. Ive tried checking my settings in adobe lightroom and they seem ok. I had to upgrade my lightroom to 2.0 after I lost my original version so maybe the new version of lightroom is compressing the file more than the old version. I have quality set 100 on the export dialog box in lightroom. BTW Steve these are pentax files comming from my k10d...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
you run them through lightroom first? - right......
over to Steve L then, or another lightroom user...
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Yes I usually process my raw files and do adjustments in lightroom and the few that need additional adjustments are sent to psp 9 ...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
I tried something else . I took this same raw file and exported it from lightroom to psp as a tiff. The tiff file was 28 megs. I did nothing to the file and saved it as a jpeg. This file was compressed to 450 k. I can't figure out why....Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Quote:
Originally Posted by
robertj298
The old jpeg file I recovered off the old hard drive was 4.68 megs after some adjustments were made. If I import the same file into psp now it shows as 2.78 megs doing nothing to it.
On the face of it, that is impossible.
Though I can't be certain what you are reading from, but as far as my experience goes, files are not compressed by opening them with PSP, they are in fact 'decompressed' for viewing. Further compression (if set) is done on saving
Again, without seeing your two files (your original .PEF and the 700KB .jpg from it) for comparison, there's very little else I can do to help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
robertj298
Yes I usually process my raw files and do adjustments in lightroom and the few that need additional adjustments are sent to psp 9 ...Bob
Aside from wanting to use some .8bf type filters, I can't easily think what "additional adjustments" you would need to make. Lightroom is designed for and capable of developing your RAW file to a complete finished and ready to print product.
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
You're right Steve 90% of my photos just need the editing I do in lightroom but a few need adjustments I can't do in lightroom. The 28 meg tiff file I was talking about wasn't compressed until after I saved it as a jpeg....Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sledger
On the face of it, that is impossible.
Though I can't be certain what you are reading from, but as far as my experience goes, files are not compressed by opening them with PSP, they are in fact 'decompressed' for viewing. Further compression (if set) is done on saving
I think that part is lightroom compressing the files when they are exported. I had to upgrade to the new version after my computer crashed and maybe its not the same as the old version however a 28 meg tiff file in in psp I wouldn't think would be compressed to 400k just by saving it as a jpeg...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
I'm confused - are you 'saving' it as a jpg , or are you 'exporting/optimising' it as a jpg, there is a difference in PSP9
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
I think everyone is confused now.. I've no idea what's going on over at Bobs place anymore..
Bob are you unable or unwilling to email those two files? (the .PEF and .JPG)
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
I just sent you the 2 files in 2 separate emails steve. Tell me what you can do with them...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Thanks Bob. Will get back to you after checking.
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Thanks again for supplying your file Bob. Here are my my results:
Software used, Adobe Lightroom 1.4 and PSP X2 on Vista Ultimate 32bit
Pixel Resolutions unchanged 3872x2592
Unchanged 96PPI (your JPG was set at 240 ppi by the way, but hasn't affected the file size)
Lightroom developed >> Export to JPEG 75% 96DPI = 947KB file
Lightroom developed >> Export to TIF no compression = 28.7MB file
Open LR exported JPEG in PSP file is still 947KB on disk, info shows 29408KB (28.7MB) in ram (decompressed for viewing/editing)
Open LR exported TIF in PSP file is still 28.7MB on disk and 29408KB in RAM
(*using PSP's Image Information dialog (shift+I))
Save TIF as 100% quality JPG = 6.53mb
Export TIF via optimizer as 100% quality JPG = 6.52mb
Save TIF as 75% quality JPG = 703KB
Export TIF via optimizer as 75% quality JPG = 696KB
Nothing at all unusual about any of these results especially in view of the pixel content, lot's of browns/oranges that can be discarded = smaller file once compressed...
BTW, not bad shot Bob, good depth of field example. http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
Though your white balance is just a little too cold in my opinion, causing the subjects skin, hair and background grey areas to appear blueish.
Attachment shows my WB preferrence in the top example with your result below.
I've also made use of LR's clarity slider.
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Thanks for looking steve. One big difference I see is your tiff file while yours starts the same as mine when I save mine at 100% quality jpeg it is reduced to 500-600 k. I'll email you the original jpeg I exported from lightroom 1.4 before it crashed...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Quote:
Originally Posted by
robertj298
One big difference I see is your tiff file while yours starts the same as mine when I save mine at 100% quality jpeg it is reduced to 500-600 k. I'll email you the original jpeg I exported from lightroom 1.4 before it crashed...Bob
I'm so confused with understanding your workflow Bob, sorry.. :o
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Oh here is my exact work flow for the last image I emailed you. Imported the raw file into lightroom 1.4from camera. Tweeked the photo in lightroom 1.4. I exported the photo into psp9 as a high quality jpeg to get rid of some dark circles under the eyes. I did that with the smudge brush the saved. I ended up with the 4.68 meg file I emailed you. When I tried to duplicate this using lightroom 2.1 before recovering data from my hard ( I still had the photo on my memory card) I end up with a 700 kb file...Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
I think this is just a matter of getting ones head around what is happening under the hood..
This is how I understand it.
When you press SAVE in PSP you are using the default save settings for that file type, which is 25% compression / 75% quality.
25% compression setting does not mean the file will be just 25% smaller than the original, it means the file will show 75% of the ‘quality’ of the original file.
So your result of 700KB is really quite normal, I got pretty much the same result too (657KB in fact).
When you Export and use the JPG optimiser (with the compression to the lowest value of '1') - you end up with the 4.7MB JPG, as did I. This too is normal as you are compressing the file using the JPEG algorithm but set to retain 100% of the orginal 'quality' (even though it is still using lossy JPG.)
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Thanks steve your info finally hit me on what I was doing wrong. I thought when I set the jpeg optimizer from the file menu that was used for each photo I didn't realize I had to set it from the window after I click save as also....Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
No worries Bob, glad we got there in the end ;)
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
Well to start with you Raw is 16 bits per channel and the Tiff will be also but Jpeg can only be 8 bits so there is a big saving there to start with before you start to compress.
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
I think there must be a difference in the compression between lightroom 2.1 which I have now and lightroom 1.4. My files which were exported as jpegs from 1.4 and worked in psp are around 4.5 -5.5 megs. The same files exported from lightroom 2.1 and nothing done to them are about half the size....Bob
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
I thought we'd sorted this? Obviously not.
Bob there's no compression difference between Lightroom versions when choosing the JPEG export.
Provided you set export options the same, you will get exactly the same result.
I really feel you are getting befuddled somewhere, pity I can't pop over to your and help you out ;)
I just tested LR2 against LR1 with one of my own .PEF RAWs.
I set exposure to 'florescent' and sharpened to 50 then exported at 100 quality level, sRGB 96dpi (exact same process in both versions)
Both files exported to 2.66MB precisely.
Same applies when exporting or saving with PSP, make absolutley certain your save settings are exactly the same as previosuly discussed.
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Re: need help with jpeg compression
just in case it clears any confusion. Psp uses a different scale. I in Jpeg export is best quality where as 100 is best in adobe and most other programs. Now as for Lightroom 2 against 1 then it must be that the jpeg export slider is set at something different to what you had it set in 1. I believe the out of the box setting is 50%