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Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Apologies if this question has already been asked, but does anybody know if the new techniques for web creation in Designer will be included in a later version of Xtreme? I only ask this as being a lowly self employed force of one I don't want to buy another software package only to find I could upgrade my present software with the same abilities.
On the other hand if they are going to diverge I would like to take advantage of the special pricing offer!
Thanks in advance
Dahzee
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
Dahzee
...does anybody know if the new techniques for web creation in Designer will be included in a later version of Xtreme?
Hi Dahzee,
The answer to that question must be yes, somebody does know. Of course that somebody is collectively known as 'Xara'..
If I were a betting man though, I'd say we'll see some surprises when Xtreme 5 is released..
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Also, now that Xara has released Web Designer, I would think that the focus for Xtreme 5 will be away from website creation.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I hope that any new and future web page design functions will be kept to the Web Designer program. Then they can focus the web design stuff into that program for the people that want it and the Xtreme development can focus more on drawing, painting, illustration tools, which I think that more Xtreme users would like to see. Just my two cents worth. ;)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I'm with you, Bruce.
We need some long awaited new vector drawing tools within Xara Xtreme. Other vector drawing packages were much more innovative within the last three years.
Remi
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
a4hire
I hope that any new and future web page design functions will be kept to the Web Designer program. Then they can focus the web design stuff into that program for the people that want it and the Xtreme development can focus more on drawing, painting, illustration tools, which I think that more Xtreme users would like to see. Just my two cents worth. ;)
Agreed!
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Much as I like the new Web Designer package, I hope that they don't duplicate these abilities in Xtreme 5. To me it makes more sense for them to work together, but keep their various abilities separate.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
ss-kalm
much as i like the new web designer package, i hope that they don't duplicate these abilities in xtreme 5. To me it makes more sense for them to work together, but keep their various abilities separate.
+1
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
pauland
+1
+2 with bells on it! :-)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
Dahzee
I don't want to buy another software package only to find I could upgrade my present software with the same abilities.
This is the issue here and since Xtreme 4 Pro already contains a basic 'web creation' engine I imagine it [expect it!] to be refined and included in any forthcoming Pro version release.
Naturally, the outcome will remain a mystery until Xtreme Pro 5 is launched....
Minstrel
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I would prefer they keep the two separate.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I'd also prefer that they kept them separate.
I'd also think that since they modified an existing version to be the new Web Designer (so I gather, I haven't actually tried it) if they wanted it to be in XPro 5, they would have just released it as XPro 5 already.
Now that they have a dedicated product for generating Web pages I would think that they'd keep it separate, enhance it as needed to reach people's expectations, and keep the existing web page export in Pro as just another format to export.
On the other hand, you never know. However I would think that people that bought Web Designer would probably be rather choked if the next version of Xara (pro or otherwise) included all the functionality of Web Designer, causing them to pay upgrade money for functionality they'd already purchased. (though this presumes that everyone who bought Web Designer is also interested in plain Xtreme).
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Here's my opinion and hopes,
We all know the apps by Adobe and how much it's hated for its learning curve and bloatwareness.
They wouldn't make the mistake to put it into one app.
I think that the new marketing strategy is going to be more like the serif approach.(No,I don't mean the not providing trial versions)
Separate programs for different tasks.
-A DTP program with some vector and photo editing capabilities.
-A vector/drawing program with more vector,3d,animation tools
-A webprogram with the best of the other worlds.
And have the formats being interchangeable.
This if you buy a suite/studio it would make sense
Hans
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I have no problem with having all the web functionality in XXPro5. It's no different than other products with lite versions for limited, specific functionality. And XWD is being touted as a replacement for Xara Webstyle, anyway.
I just don't think that the web features should be the basis for a 5.0 version. If they're there, that's a bonus. And I won't feel cheated for having to "pay for them twice". The price is very reasonable, either way.
But, significant new functionality apart from html export, is needed to justify the version increment, IMO...
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
One good thing is that XWD functionality added to Xtreme isn't going to be enough to get people buying Xtreme now, so hopefully efforts will be in non web areas..
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Another 2 cents: Since Xara is part of Magix, i think the future focus is on web applications. The multipage thing was already implemented many years ago in the file format of xara, there wasn't just an interface for it (add/remove/move page). The biggest highlight of Xara in the past would have been PDF/X export (and thanks HEAPS for that!).
Any new vector tools would be great but i doubt it. More DTP functionality such as spellcheck will bloat Xara (but it would be needed), where do you start or stop to add functionality with all the areas that Xara already covers anyway?
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I'm really in favor of keeping them separate. My experience with "one size fits all" approaches to any sort of design (not just software) is you end up with a product that's mediocre at many things and excellent at none. Another bonus of taking the mindset of multiple applications, each with its own focus, is the user can pick what they need a la carte to customize their suite of tools and doesn't end up paying for functions they neither need nor want.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
Spinny
I'm really in favor of keeping them separate. My experience with "one size fits all" approaches to any sort of design (not just software) is you end up with a product that's mediocre at many things and excellent at none.
Totally agree.
What's that expression? "Jack of all trades, master of none." :-)
Cheers
Doug
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I would also very much appreciate Xara use this opportunity to ditch the web design stuff from Xtreme and convert it into a single-purpose graphics design package. Web development is done with HTML, CSS and JavaScript, not a graphics program :p The *graphics* of a web site are created with a graphics package, true. :)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
instinctive.de
Web development is done with HTML, CSS and JavaScript, not a graphics program :p The *graphics* of a web site are created with a graphics package, true. :)
Clearly this is no longer the case, true? ;)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
-=Drifter=-
I would prefer they keep the two separate.
I agree
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
sledger
Clearly this is no longer the case, true? ;)
:) It should be the case though. A web site is not simply a bunch of statically arranged graphics (which is what Xara Web Designer / Xtreme produce). It's a *semantic* kind of thing... with things like "This menu goes to the bottom right corner of the browser window, with 10 pixels margin", or "This blue bar is 10 pixels high and 50% the width of the browser window, with the other 50% tiled with "foo.jpg"", etc... this is all stuff that you can't do with the Xara approach.
Needless to say, as soon as you want to do anything dynamic where contents and/or graphics or structure come from databases, you need to look into 'real' solutions anyway.
Sorry, I really don't want to offend anyone :) it's just that I'm a hardcore web developer and this "Use a graphics package for a whole web site" thing hurts as if someone stabbed me!
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
instinctive.de
it's just that I'm a hardcore web developer and this "Use a graphics package for a whole web site" thing hurts as if someone stabbed me!
Exactly. Now just imagine that every time you mention hmtl, most unexperienced users who just want to design their own web site, feel stabbed or offended or humiliated. So... :rolleyes:
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Now just imagine everytime a 14-year old feels the urgent need to visit their grandma 200 miles away, they cannot go themselves because they don't have a driver's license.
Guess what - they'll just need to ask their parents :D
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Or use a WD! :D
May be not as correct as with parets, but still their own way!
Seriously, you know, that the most humiliating is the common opinion that lack of html knowledge makes you unable to design your own site. This is humiliating because there are a lot of great designers who can create great designs but they have to learn html and spend a lot of time actually coding, not designing, just to make their desings to the web. Sometimes it's getting pathetic to see how experienced html coder laugh and make jokes of the real artist. Why? Because html coding is not an art, design creation is an art. And you can learn everyone to code html, even machine, while it's not always easy to learn someone to create art. So, the parents joke may be treated this way - do not ever, under any circumstances use any vector drawing software! Your parents have to do all this manually in the Post Script because you are to young to have a license to hand code Post Script! :D
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
是的,我是设计后导出html,剩下的交给程序员,各有分工,编码我一窍不通也没兴趣研究!:
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
这论坛的删除回复按钮在哪里?我发现一旦重复回帖就没有办法删除了!(我是说删除自己的错误或重复回复,难 道这也不可以?)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
instinctive.de
....this "Use a graphics package for a whole web site" thing hurts as if someone stabbed me!
I remember being miffed when electronic piano started taking over from 'real' acoustic piano - where are the harmonics!! :eek: - well given time the harmonics came through - they'll never be the same [IMO] but now electronic and acoustic instruments co-exist quite happily.
Speaking in analogy the ease of WD is akin to the ease of an early portable electronic keyboard versus good old Steinway - and I think the WD way of doing HTML is going to have a similar impact.
Give it time to mature
I could be wrong, I don't code HTML, but I have been here before - I sense a sea-change...
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Here we go again, the same old broken record spinning up again :rolleyes:
Quote:
It should be the case though.
That comes across so very luddite and blinkered, no-one can take seriously a non-objective point of view.
Alexander if Xara Web Designer offends you because it's putting power in the hands of those who do not know HTML, then all I can say is 'Get over it"..
We all respect your right to your preferred methods and opinion and no-one is going out there way to force anyone to adopt a graphical approach to web design if they don't wish to. Any solution is the 'real solution' if the tool is understood and used as intended.
It's just an option for anyone who wants to take it.
Choice is good right?
So please try not to force your way of thinking onto others with your bullish comments, if you can't accept WD and see it as blasphemy, then please choose another subject to discuss at TG which we can happily join in with and remain friends. OK?
@卡丁人
Posts cannot be deleted by members. Please ask a Mod to do this for you :)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Don't hope I'm considered a spinning record
But use the tools you're provided with.
With some effort they are complementary.
Hans
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
There's a place for hardcore html coders and for html websites generated by software (which is what XWD does). There used to be similar arguments about not using assembly language for programming, but it's used only in specialist situations now.
I think hardcore html coders should just ignore XWD and chuckle to themselves at the way it works. In the meantime XWD users can smile that they aren't wasting their life worrying too much about HTML.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
pauland
There's a place for hardcore html coders and for html websites generated by software (which is what XWD does). There used to be similar arguments about not using assembly language for programming, but it's used only in specialist situations now.
Exactly. Actually, the analogy to the high/low level programming languages here is very strong indeed.
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I think hardcore html coders should just ignore XWD and chuckle to themselves at the way it works. In the meantime XWD users can smile that they aren't wasting their life worrying too much about HTML.
Well, the programming rivalry ended with time, so now even assembly programmers use high level languages but unlike less experienced programmers they can optimise the code when needed using their knowledge. We have some ways for exapansion and use of the advanced html knowledge in WD as well, so, perhaps one day, some other html coders except me, could try and help less experienced users with code tweaks. :rolleyes:
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
sledger
Alexander if Xara Web Designer offends you because it's putting power in the hands of those who do not know HTML, then all I can say is 'Get over it"..
[...]
So please try not to force your way of thinking onto others with your bullish comments, if you can't accept WD and see it as blasphemy, then please choose another subject to discuss at TG which we can happily join in with and remain friends. OK?
Sheesh, relax! You have totally misunderstood me.
The issue is more complex: Web development consists of (at least) two fundamentally different tasks: 1) *Graphics design* (layout, navbar design, button design, choice of fonts/sizes etc.). That can be handled by a graphics artist, and using a tool like Xtreme to make a *purely graphical* (no HTML, no CSS) *mockup.
Then there's 2) *Implementation*: Which is implement a layout in HTML/CSS that encapsulates the previously (graphically) drafted layout and design, with possibly added functionality.
Xara WD (and to a degree Xtreme) mix these two concepts. I think that these two concepts should stay seperate. But I guess me (with my 29 years) is pretty oldschool. I also think that those "combo devices" (scanner, fax, copier, printer, toaster, vacuum all in one) are just as bad a development, because they do 6 things with mediocre results, instead of doing one thing *well*.
Excuse me if I'm not politically correct (tm), but I'll keep stating opinions :)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
instinctive.de
I also think that those "combo devices" (scanner, fax, copier, printer, toaster, vacuum all in one) are just as bad a development, because they do 6 things with mediocre results, instead of doing one thing *well*.
Well, then stop using that personal computer. It mixes much more funcions and was invented with unlimited multifunctionality in mind. :rolleyes:
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
If I may... :D
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Originally Posted by
instinctive.de
Web development consists of (at least) two fundamentally different tasks: 1) *Graphics design* ... 2) *Implementation*
I believe that there are times when #2 simply does not matter. If the code itself is W3C compliant, and search engine friendly, and results in the desired display rendered to the user, then in those cases implementation is not relevant. I understand there are instances where that is not the case, where the structure of the code matters for some reason or another, but I expect that those cases are the exception, not the rule, when you look at the whole massive monster that is the World Wide Web.
For the people where that structure matters, WD is not the tool to use. For everyone else, it is designed by its creators to become the go-to solution of choice (or so they hope).
Quote:
I also think that those "combo devices" (scanner, fax, copier, printer, toaster, vacuum all in one) are just as bad a development, because they do 6 things with mediocre results, instead of doing one thing *well*.
I completely agree with you. I still refuse to put music files on my Blackberry: I have an iPod for that. ;)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
covoxer
Well, then stop using that personal computer. It mixes much more funcions and was invented with unlimited multifunctionality in mind. :rolleyes:
I use a notebook in my car for playing music. Guess what, it frequently reboots with a "New updates need to be installed now" in the middle of a cool song, or sometimes crashes when waking up from suspend :)
So yes, I'm ignoring my own suggestions there... however, it is proof that a single-purpose MP3 player is better than using a multifunction PC as one :)
But well, you can ignore me now :)
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
instinctive.de
I use a notebook in my car for playing music. Guess what, it frequently reboots with a "New updates need to be installed now" in the middle of a cool song, or sometimes crashes when waking up from suspend :)
So yes, I'm ignoring my own suggestions there... however, it is proof that a single-purpose MP3 player is better than using a multifunction PC as one :)
Indeed. :D
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
What is the definition of web-design anyhow?
A website on which are placed the personal or nonprofit or commercial interests of its owner.
They differ in every each case(or we could all be using joomla or the likes)
A sculptor needs a portfolio-make a great graphics site(xwd)
A school needs a site which handles rosters and personal info(use php/asp based website with database like joomla)
A consultant needs more forms so xwd(lacks forms) is not that suitable nor is joomla(to heavy)
So choose what's needed in every single case.
Like stated before think complementary
Hans
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
I agree with Alexander. Having six separate specialist devices is preferable to a multi-function printer scanner and having a designer mockup your web pages and then have them hand-translated to HTML by a HTML specialist is definitely the route of choice.
Sadly many of us don't have room to accommodate all this stuff, or people, or the budget they require, so a compromise is in order. XWD is that compromise. I would agree that XWD does not make a good multifunction printer/scanner.
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Re: Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro
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Originally Posted by
pauland
I would agree that XWD does not make a good multifunction printer/scanner.
And from what I've seen thus far it makes a lousy cup of coffee. :cool: