There seems to be some interest in getting Xara 3D shapes into a modeling program. This is good news because I've been doing exactly this for more than 15 years. There is no program for any money that can match Xara's drawing tools, so it makes sense to export Xara's work and then import it to a modeler (I'm showing Cinema 4D in this video).
Here's how I'd make a vase:
My Best,
Gary
24 August 2014, 05:59 PM
wizard509
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Thanks for that Gare. I have known for a long time that Xara and Blender work well together. Interesting to see it work with other 3D modeling programs as well.
24 August 2014, 06:08 PM
csehz
4 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
That is very inspiring Gare, thanks very much. That vase looks great and as I can see so selected the Adobe Illustrator .ai, .eps format for the export from Xara to Cinema 4D.
So summarizing my first experiences Xara has these exporting options
and at Blender the .ai is not an option but the .svg yes and I was able to import Attachment 103487
at Art of Illusion there seems just one format the .obj what can be imported Attachment 103488
at the free version of SketchUp neither seems .ai or .svg formats Attachment 103489
But so the Blender seems having a straight way from Xara, probably also possible some cross transfer so if got to Blender that can export in formats probably what the Art of Illusion or SketchUp can import
24 August 2014, 06:42 PM
Gare
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
OBJ is a legacy file format created byAlias|Wavefront which is now owned by AutoDesk and named Maya.
This format is as common in modeling programs as a TXT file is to writing stuff.
The reason why is that OBJ files can contain curved splines to make true 3D meshes with curves just like Xara shapes. DXF and other export and import file formats use straight small vectors to make circles and stuff and in close-ups, the straight little vectors are visible.
Beware of SketchUp. You can do wonderful architecture, but curved surfaces are very difficult, as in impossible! They, too, have hard, straight profiles when you try to make spheres and stuff. They need a lot of subdivision (increasing polygons by dividing one into two) and Phong angles (at which angle does geometry get a curve during rendering time).
-g
24 August 2014, 11:03 PM
handrawn
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
as it happens the avatar that I have been using up to now:
is based on a 3D model from a xara sketch - very simple and stylised horse sculpture seen from behind and to one side - easier to see what it is a bit larger size:
This image is a paltry example of what it can do and export as an obj.
My Best,
Gary
24 August 2014, 11:43 PM
angelize
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
I have used a very similar technique with drawing splines in Xara and saving them as a .svg then importing them into Blender and using the spin feature to create the 3D mesh. I export as an open path though but the result is much the same. I have also used Xara to create a quick closed shape to bring into Blender for modeling.
Once I needed a bowl of dog food so I created the bowl in a similar fashion to what Gary did, and the dog food needed to have several different shapes so I quickly and roughly drew those in Xara, exported to svg and once I had each svg imported into Blender I converted them to a mesh and started modeling from there.
25 August 2014, 12:38 AM
Gare
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
While it's true that Xara's 3D engine produces some pretty slick, complex, and very attractive extrudes, there are more operations than extruding that you can do with a path. What Frances refers to, and what I did was create a vertical half shape of a cylindrical object and then performed something called lathing, like how you make ceramics on a potter's wheel. There is also lofting, where you can draw different objects, put them in 3D space at regular intervals and then skin them.
You also have sweeping, where you run a closed path shape along an open path.
At left, the spring thing is a pentagon swept along a helix. At right, the thing that looks like it fell off your car around 30 miles back is a loft of a circle, to a hexagon, to another circle, and then the journey proceeds downward to create a round recess at top:
If you're interested in exploring more "block" treatments, boy do I have a source forge for you. It's called Structure Synth, Right Here
thanks I'll go take a look :)
25 August 2014, 09:52 AM
csehz
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gare
At left, the spring thing is a pentagon swept along a helix. At right, the thing that looks like it fell off your car around 30 miles back is a loft of a circle, to a hexagon, to another circle, and then the journey proceeds downward to create a round recess at top:
That looks so great.. Also easily associates the impression that the 3D modeler programs are on 'higher level', not sure that is true. But relating the angle assumingly in few second you could rotate differently and with that any similiar representation by a 2D program like Xara could not compete.
Inspite of that reading on Wikipedia that there is also a back direction, so moving drawing from 3D modeler to a 2D program. However seeing this quality hard to imagine for what reason would be that needed.
25 August 2014, 11:34 AM
Gare
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Quote:
Originally Posted by csehz
That looks so great.. Also easily associates the impression that the 3D modeler programs are on 'higher level', not sure that is true. But... a 2D program like Xara could not compete.
Oh, csehz! You make be want to never post another rendered model again on tg!
There is no competition in art programs...there is only addition. I think I have 400 programs installed, cut that down to about 200 if you discount utilities, but I used everyone of them at least one a month, not giving up a single one (except when one of my $%^# Western Digitals suddenly crashed!)
I have not given up CorelDRAW for Xara,and I have not given up Xara for (expensive) modeling programs.
The truth is that my favorite art tools are sitting on a physical draughting table upstairs and they mostly consist of different harnesses of pencils, and 24 lb. ledger bond paper, kneaded erasers and a whole bunch of ink pens.
Direct contact with what you're creating has it all over using a computer for beginnings to art, revisions, and I must say that the growing niche of computer programs I now use came second, not first, in expressing myself.
I still cannot create the sort of expression in my mind's eye and my heart using graphics programs that I do with a sketch pad. Today, I do my finishing in Xara, auto-tracing my B&W work, and then doing the coloring. Before 1991, I used makers, the same as most other cartoonists and ad agency storyboard artists.
Here's a typeface I conceived of over 20 years ago, but didn't have the technology to bring it to life, as life goes inside a computer! It might be another 20 years to complete it, because I'm easily distracted, but the point is: you see the pencil strokes and the ink-overs? They were the preliminary impressions I created, and I'm using Xara here to create accuracy and consistency among the characters.
Modeling is great: I've indulged myself in it as long as I've used vector drawing programs. But one is not the other, and you need to remember to use the right tool for the right job. I've been cartooning since I was 6 years old (my 61st birthday is tomorrow, so that makes it 55 years of 'tooning endeavors. And I'm not soliciting sympathy for my temporal plight!).
And a pencil and ink are absolutely the right tools for cartooning. Modeling programs suck in comparison. The reason why I model a lot is because I can "see" three dimensions projected onto a 2D monitor screen, and have an innate ease of navigating this faux 3D space, which puts me ahead of the game. If I can draw it, I draw it. If it needs rotation, and different lighting and entirely different reflective textures, a modeling program is my choice of tools.
No competition, csehz, and I must emphasize this. There are no "better" programs (okay, Chrome is better than Opera :)), but only specialized tool that you collect. Heck, I have a superb texture making program that won't run in 64x space, so I'm using a virtual machine with Win XP on it just to access one stinking program I need.
I'd be on CG Society and not TalkGrasphics if I felt there was one indisputable terrific piece of software. There isn't.
My Best,
Gary
25 August 2014, 12:09 PM
csehz
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Before of anything of course, Gare Happy Birthday tomorrow! :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gare
But one is not the other, and you need to remember to use the right tool for the right job.
Yes sure that is the point.
But please post these rendered models yet a lot because it widens the horizon at the where to go questions. Higher or not higher level but they look awesome. The same awesome like those 400 programs installed on the computer, what a cross experience/frustration they can build probably :) But it also dimensionates how valuable is just simple reading your opinion and conclusions and really thanks for any.
For me even this Wiki model was both new information + language lesson today :D
Ah, and excellent example from Wiki on how solid geometric principles fit together to get the entire picture of a shape.
In addition to spline (path) connecting to make a parametric shape (they are smooth because they approximate a surface, and this is what separates modeling programs from CAD programs, where accuracy is critical). There is also a technique where you take a primitive, and object that cannot be reduced to more simple geometry, such as a sphere, cube, cone, and so on. And the you push, pull and twist on a selected area of the mesh to sculpt the shape you seek. I tend to use vectors to build stuff more, because I';m lousy at both virtual and real sculpting!
But here's an animation of sculpting and re-sculpting a cube over time. Stupid animation, but shows a principle. No connecting paths were used to make the 3D geometry. Some modifiers where used, but that's stock stuff in modeling, and it requires very little user intervention or intelligent. They're presets:
But this is animation, and a good Xara Artist could reproduce any of the still frames given some time. It's what you see in your head that dictates what hardware or software you use to bring ideas to life.
My Best,
Gary
25 August 2014, 04:11 PM
theinonen
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
I have had no need to import anything into 3D software but am exporting lot of things from CAD into pure vector drawing software as they just can not compete when it comes to drawing things.
Personally I like the SDS approach of modelling more but Realsoft 3D has also excellent tools for modelling with NURBS and both have uses.
Below is a quick example showing how to make very simple coffee cup using both ways. (Looks pretty crappy but my excuse is that I did not touch any real 3D software for more than 15 years and actually seeing rendered images on this forum inspired me to start experimenting with things again.)
25 August 2014, 04:50 PM
Gare
3 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
There is already a desperately vacant 3D area on tg, theinonen.
I began this thread as a bridge between Xara and 3D modeling programs, but you say that you have no need to import anything into 3D software, so we're kinda leaving Xara out of the equation with your workflow. And we need to occasionally support the diversity of uses for Xara, um, seeing as Xara pays the bills for TalkGraphics. Fair's fair, right? :) No selling out, just a courtesy once and then.
I encourage you to try working with Xara splines; export them to AI files, or perhaps the 3D forum could answer better advice than you'll find here.
RealSoft 3D seems to have a lot of the features of $1,000+ software,compared to 200€.
Sculpting mode doesn't really apply to Xara import/export, but the first method, lofting splines, certainly does, because I own 3DS, Cinema 4D, modo, and have experimented with SGI and Houdini, and none of them have the drawing tools Xara does:
Going the other way, if you are careful and observant of what real-life objects look like, with the right colors and a little help from Live Effects, you can make a totally dimensional drawing righ within X DP, most any version after 5.
Gare according to your experience how complex Xara vectors can be exported and used in the 3D modeling programs?
For example having a keyboard which I am able to draw only in Xara in 2D, is that real to export and try to extrude in the modelers? Just theoretically
I have been experimenting a little with the trial version of the Xara and the drawing tools have not changed much since the ArtWorks days. There are some improvements on some of the tools but none of those have much to do with the actual drawing side of things.
On above picture is example how many ways can single drawing tools be used on wProCAD+, so there is freedom of choice to work the way you want yourself and not how the software wants you to do things.
Another example demonstrating how easy it is to add numbers to a clock or speedometer. Just copy point along a path and as every point has a position in sequence you can just automatically generate those numbers. Put starting position, step, quantity and then just select enumerate at points and those numbers will magically appear at correct position.
Best of all everything can be imported to Artworks/Xara as a Draw file.
Would it not be easier for the simple vase shape that you used in the video to use the Revolve 3D filter in Illustrator and If you give me a few minutes I will and do it. The main difference that I see in the video is the ability to give the rendered shape texture with a reflective finishes of gold, chrome and stainless steel with ease and lofting rendered shapes together.
I have tried a few 3D and CGI programmes but found like most programmes that it took time to get the hang of them bar SketchUp which is even easier than Xara as I spent years both drawing and teaching engineering drawing for a living. With the 64 bit speed now available in our Xara programme would it not be nice to see and have the ability to extrude , revolve vector shapes along with mapping vector art to that shape and still be vector. Giving the ability to enlarge to any size without the loss of clarity and also with the ability to edit the shape and placed art.
26 August 2014, 10:29 AM
Albacore
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Promised vase not quite the same as I just battered it out without looking at your vase Gary
26 August 2014, 11:25 AM
Gare
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
I've used Illustrator's—actually it was a stand alone program for a while called Adobe Dimensions—quite a few years back, and yes, it does in vector format what CorelDRAW cannot, which is to revolve a profile. This one took me quite a long time to figure out and compose back in 1997—notice that Adobe's product doesn't self shade or produce off-object shadows...
Xara extrudes, but does so as a dynamic bitmap if you go to wireframe, and there is no lathing option.
The short answer is yes, it would be simpler, but your approach leaves Xara out of the equation! :)
We can't do that now, can we?
I'd like to suggest that if you're good with shading, invest just a little time in a 3D program such as Art of Illusion, roughing out your scene with a cylinder here and a cube there, all in perspective—you export the crude piece as a bitmap, and then trace over it in Xara to bring out the finer details, making the illustration something you put manual effort into. #D modeling programs take some of the ennui out of making a scene because it does massive calculations for you, but I'm always haunted a little bit by the fact that I'm not 100% hands-on with a modeling program, that it did for me in seconds what I could have done myself in months.
Lazy me :)
My Best,
Gary
27 August 2014, 06:44 AM
csehz
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Seeing so that the neither Art of Illusion nor Sketchup can not import .svg, the Blender seems staying as straight free selection to export 2D vectors from Xara and try in the 3D modeling world.
For those just would like to attach here this link of a really valuable thread http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...nder-questions from the depth of TG. It is from 2011 but for me absolutely actual! :D However feeling like going on the trace which was already long ago discovered
27 August 2014, 11:47 AM
Gare
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Regarding your laptop question,csehz—
A laptop is basically a whole lot of extrudes of squares and rectangles, which with some effort can be done in Xara. Yeah, yeah, I know keys have slight indentations, but why not try your hand at enhancing a basic extrude to suggest lighting that makes the keys appear indented? And then add shadows.
It's one way to make really dimensional drawings without leaving Xara at all.
My Best,
Gary
27 August 2014, 12:30 PM
theinonen
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Lazy person could just vectorize the curves from the picture and then extrude those.
This is what I got without much tweaking from the picture. Little stylized but not that bad for a couple minutes of work.
27 August 2014, 12:38 PM
csehz
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Quote:
Originally Posted by theinonen
Lazy person could just vectorize the curves from the picture and then extrude those.
Basically from the .xar file the keyboard is already in vectors so that does not need any additional work, just exporting in .svg and importing in a 3D modeling program.
Yesterday I did a short try to Blender and the keyboard went through, however all buttons as separate objects so the question came up how to group objects in Blender. But already having the Essential Guides so once will find out :)
Gare yes in Xara that is okay absolutely to extrude a keyboard on a laptop, it is not so hard if the Angle 2 is 0 consequently for the base, keyboard, buttons etc. so sure no need to leave the program at all. But if that laptop needs rotating in different angles, that looks rather challenging
27 August 2014, 12:41 PM
Gare
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Quote:
Originally Posted by theinonen
Lazy person could just vectorize the curves from the picture and then extrude those.
I think this is exactly what I and csehz were proposing, theinonen.
I fail to see how this is a lazy approach considering this thread is about how Xara can be used to make a keyboard out of extrusions. What would the ambitious way be?
A couple minutes of work!? I'm impressed!
Then comes lighting and some hand-drawn shadows and we're talking serious keyboard illustration.
My Best,
Gary
27 August 2014, 01:45 PM
theinonen
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gare
A couple minutes of work!? I'm impressed!
No need as only thing that is handmade are those crappy painted letters on the keys. (And I failed even those as I misplaced capslock and was not bothered to do the rest anymore.) It is all 100% autotrace + extrude.
27 August 2014, 04:54 PM
csehz
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Just a golden laptop to the Xara vs Blender extrude competition :D So this is the Xara, all objects are extrudes with Angle2 0, feel free anyone to try to turn it, I gave it up with the idea for a while, but maybe once.
At opening the .xar file it needs an ALT-Q removing clipview to see all the buttons on the keyboard, not sure why that is needed maybe some small bug in XDPX9 and XDPX10, it works like that on my computer at all files with a lot extrudes. This keyboard should be better one than the before attached, removing the extrude it is in vector version to export.
In the meantime I will try to develop myself in Blender at least to be able to extrude 'ANYTHING' :D
27 August 2014, 06:11 PM
Gare
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
csehz,
Unless you're planning on having the front of the extrude larger or smaller than the back, there's really not point in extruding stuff in Blender that you can extrude in Xara.
It's not a contest; each software has its strengths. You did great with your golden computer, and just try to do a cartoon or a painting in a modeling program!
Or a page layout! :)
-g
27 August 2014, 08:57 PM
wizard509
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
I like it cshez, you did a great job.
28 August 2014, 04:57 AM
csehz
3 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Thanks for your words, yesterday just tried to export a QuickShape from Xara as .svg
Am I missing something or maybe QuickShapes are hard topics to export from Xara to the 3D modelers? It would be pity as there sure would be hard to draw such shape what is in Xara just five seconds. Did not convert to editable shapes if maybe that is the issue
Thanks for your check in Cinema 4D, that exactly went through. So there has to be way also in Blender, I will give some tries yet
28 August 2014, 03:44 PM
Gare
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
csehz—
There are some fundamental flaws in your (beautiful) geometry. Illustrator has some PostScript in it, and you have to obey Post Script rules to export a successful shape to extrude or whatever.
First, a path cannot self-intersect. I think C4D "tolerates" this self intersecting for reasons I'm not sure of (I do a lot of work in C4D), but I venture to guess that if you put your design on a Guides layer, and then trace over it without crossing paths, this might satisfy Blender and other programs that cannot figure out where there are solids, and where there are holes when a single shape self-intersects. Also, there's something called the Winding Path rule:
The enhanced drawing API also introduces the concept of path “winding”: the direction for a path. The winding for a path is either positive (clockwise) or negative (counter-clockwise). The order in which the renderer interprets the coordinates provided by the vector for the data parameter determines the winding.
The rule can be seen in effect in many vector graphic programs (like Freehand or Illustrator), where a crossing of an outline with itself causes shapes to fill in strange ways.
I'm quoting from various sources, but in English with a diagram:
The path of a shape that has a hole in it,must ravel in the right direction, not the left. If you were faced with a giant doughnut and wanted to follow the Winding path rule, you go this way:
So if your exported AI file looks wrong, go back to Xara, select the reverse path tool on the Infobar and see if the "O" or other shape with a hole doesn't look better in the modeling program.
Dutchim, congratulations! I could get the star shape to work after 15 minutes of trying in C4D!
My Best,
Gart
29 August 2014, 01:56 AM
wizard509
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
I didn't know what the problem was, but I noticed something was funky because when I looked at it in blender the wireframe looked fine but solid view was wrong. Thanks for finding and explaining the problem Gare.
29 August 2014, 05:02 AM
csehz
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Gare thanks for the explanation,
my (very beginner) user experience in Blender that it does not eat Xara QuickShapes too easily. If that is filled without 'holes' then apparently goes through as filled shape, but extruding that some hidden lines seems inside.
Maybe someone who has more experience in Blender can confirm how that goes. Cinema 4D looks very beautiful but not free so for me out, let's see which other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eling_software modelers are where the import of Xara .svg-s could be tried :D
29 August 2014, 07:45 AM
Mike Bailey
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
I draw a shape in Xara, export it as a bitmap, import the bitmap into ZBrush as an alpha, then I can use it for lots of wonderful things like transforming it into a 3D model.
29 August 2014, 05:21 PM
Gare
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Mike, I LOVE it!
You just hit upon something that totally went over my head when discussing how 2D Xara can help 3D models—seamless textures!
In the May 2012 video tutorial Creating a Seamless Texture, I walk you through exactly how to make a complicated texture with no seams and even with transparency. I'd say offhand if you created a sphere in Blender, and imported a PNG with transparency as the material coating the 3D vector mesh, you might get something like this:
Okay, the texture is overdone and looks like my grandmother's doilies, but you get the idea.
Thanks again, Mike, for jogging a somewhat expended memory!
-g
29 August 2014, 07:51 PM
dutchim
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Thanks Gare
I guess I should have put just a little more effort into it the other day... But was in a hurry.
Not saying that this one is much better... But not easily done in Xara
Fun thread. Wish I had more time to devote to 3D software but it's a very big learning curve and I'm tending to forget more than I'm learning these days.
Here's a Xara X created in Xara and imported and Swept in Cinema4D.
01 September 2014, 09:11 AM
Egg Bramhill
4 Attachment(s)
Re: Xara 2D drawings to 3D modeling program
Here's my go at creating a keyboard using only Xara's extrusions. I attach the xar file incase anyone want's to lpay with it.