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Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Having a little difficulty understanding what might be going wrong here.
One of our customers sent us a design which used PANTONE Spot Colours. We imported the colours, but upon printing them, they come out TOTALLY different. (We understand that some colour shading will be different on a CMYK Printer as the colour process has to try and match up the closest to the colours we've used, but what is weird is that when we create the colours based on the Pantone Web site, the CMYK Values are causing different colours in Xara than they do in Illustrator.
I've added attachments, in the hope it explains things better than I can... any questions, please ask and I'll try and clarify a little more. I'm hoping we've missed a setting in Xara somewhere which we can change ?
I've uploaded 3 files, the Xara file (Test.xar) which hopefully shows the 4 created colours, a PDF which shows how all 4 colours look correct upon converting, and a PNG which shows a screen grab with the PDF under my Xara file in case the Xara file works fine on your version of Xara and mine is incorrectly set up.
Many thanks for any advice / Tips.
Matt
Attachment 124491
Attachment 124492
Attachment 124493
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
What your customer sees on their monitor is different from what you and I see on ours. So the only way to have a perfect match is to get the pantone numbers and assign them again in xara to those squares. Even then you you can not verify that they are the same one as the pantone website (because the website is showing you colors in RGB). You need the booklet to get the numbers and see the colors on the booklet. How many pantone colors are there in the design? If more than 2, then it is best to do the whole thing in CMYK. Pantone printing is expensive.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Xara works in an RGB environment. CMYK as you know cannot print the same number of colors. The colors on the bottom are pretty much what I would expect the printed results to be.
If your customer uses Window > Show Print Colors > Simulate Print Colors she/he will get a better indication how the actual printed colors will look.
Also RGB to CMYK color values vary from program to program.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gwpriester
Xara works in an RGB environment. CMYK as you know cannot print the same number of colors. The colors on the bottom are pretty much what I would expect the printed results to be.
Thanks for your reply.
I understand that Xara works in an RGB environment, but I would hope that when you pick a spot colour or a CMYK colour that it would print that colour.
The colour in the screen grab at the top is how Xara is showing exactly the same colour on various squares...
When we print, the colours are coming off wrong too..
If you use Xara, try recreating those colours we have in the example, and print them off locally on a colour printer.. Does your Xara do the same? If so, then surely we shouldn't ever use Pantone Colours or CMYK colours in our designs as they will never match what is expecting upon printing.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
but a screen grab is no use with xara, that is the point - you have to print to see the colours accurately in anything other tham rgb
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
if the print is wrong then then the cmyk/pantone assigned within
xara is incorrect
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
It has been years since I made this observation but about 1/2 of all Pantone colors can be matched exactly or very closely in CMYK. About 1/4 are close, and the other 1/4 don't come close.
Pantone colors were designed years ago as a system of mixed inks that would produce the same color anywhere in the world if the inks were mixed according to the formula.
I'm preaching to the choir here I know.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
but a screen grab is no use with xara, that is the point - you have to print to see the colours accurately in anything other tham rgb
Ok Maybe I'm totally missing the point here, to which I apologise.
https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/3145-C
That is the reference page from Pantone that provides the Pantone colour, and associated CMYK, RGB and HEX values to achieve that same colour.
The screen grab is not what we are printing from. It's there to show everybody what I see in Xara compared to what is being converted to PDF.
Working from right to left...
The pantone colour 3145C is the colour square on the far right.
Next on the left of that is the CMYK value which is from the web site namely C (100) M (10) Y (29) K (20)
The next swatch is made from the HEX code provided on that website 00778B
The final swatch on the far left is from the web site again, but the RGB values.
If all those colours are meant to represent the same colour , why are the two on the right different on screen AND when it prints?
When I put those colours in other software, they all match the same tones as the RGB and Hex.
If a customer provides me artwork which contains Pantone colours, or CMYK values, and Xara is translating these colours incorrectly, then why would Xara provide the facility to work with these colours knowing that the print off will look nothing like it should do?
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
There are a whole lot of issues here. And in my current condition I am likely going to poop out before I can type it all out...
1) The only numbers on the Pantone website that mean much for the representation onscreen of spot colors are the RGB values, for obvious reasons...it's what are monitors use and is in a wider gamut than CMYK.
2) The CMYK numbers on the Pantone website are "uncharacterized" numbers. In other words, they are "dumb" values that mean, well, nothing. They are number values without being transformed by any CMYK color space both as regards a CMYK working color space and/or an ouput color profile.
3) Xara has no ability for having/using a CMYK document color space. I have long asked that LittleCMS be integrated. It isn't and likely will never be though it is an OpenSource color management system.
3) Xara only transforms Pantone and/or colors to an output profile in the case of PDFs. It uses, by default, a rather generic profile by default but the color values when working with CMYK are transferred to a PDF accurately.
4) The proper Pantone numbers use LAB values to characterize the colorants. This color model is the only accurate model that can then transforms the color values both for onscreen using a document color profile in conjunction with an output color model.
5) Xara applications cannot use LAB color values.
6) LAB values for spot color is what all professional applications use.
7) Pantone or other spot colors as characterized in Xara applications are only viable when actually using them as spot colors in a PDF and for printing professionally as spot color. However, that said, any print establishment worth a hoot can, using most any RIP or Acrobat, transform the spot color itself to CMYK values as accurately as any Adobe desktop application from the start.
8) The Pantone LAB values in say AI will vary when converted to CMYK depending upon the document CMYK working space. So using 3145C in conjunction with US SWOP as the document color space, the LAB 3145C swatch is transformed the CMYK values of 100,35.77,38.11,7.5, well different to the dumb numbers on the Pantone website.
9) Nearly every consumer desktop printer I am aware of convert CMYK, well all color values in whatever color space, to RGB inside the print driver and then convert again to CMYK inside the printer's RIP. There are exceptions as to what happens to inkjets with more than 4 inks as to what happens in both the print driver and the internal RIPs. There are also exceptions as regards higher-end PostScript consumer printers as well--some do have CMYK print drivers, for instance as well as some also have Pantone look-up tables.
my arm is getting fatigued and so i'm done for now...
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mwenz
...[colour spaces reprise]...
Mike, Still my go-to-guy for this worthy detail.
Thanks,
Acorn
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
When I worked with Xara for the first time, I immediately noticed that Xara does not master color management.
But I was surprised by the playful lightness of the application and dealt with the problem of the lack of color management.
Result: color consistent working with Xara is only possible via color tables, color profiles and the subsequent check (soft proof) in Acrobat Pro. Assuming you've calibrated your system.
For very delicate jobs I also have a colour proof made to be absolutely sure.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
A printing issue not mentioned so far is the nature of the surface to be printed, e.g. black anodised aluminum, stainless steel, 'white' powder-coat, black powder-coat, paper, canvas, perspex, etc. and the desired printed finish, e.g. matte, gloss, satin, etc. I used to design a lot of artwork for screen-printing of electronic equipment panels in CorelDRAW which has extensive support for Pantone colours. There are many variables and interactions, so it is very hard to get the desired result on-screen and it boils down to obtaining actual samples. No display that emits light can possibly show the same colours as an article reflecting light and no display can emulate metallic sheen or translucence. The only way to get the desired result is through test prints on the actual medium by the business that will be doing the job/s. It's costly, but the result is good.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Unless your working to produce design for large firms that can dish out money to get their pantone matched across multiple items, your better off just relaxing about color matching to the T and get the job done in CMYK which is cheaper for your clients.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Many thanks for your detailed reply... hope your arm recovered ! :)
So in conclusion, it looks like any customers that send us PDF artwork which contain Pantone Colours, we'll need to replace those colours for an RGB equivalent to ensure that they get printed correctly on our CMYK Printer as Xara can't be relied on to print those Pantone Colours into a close CMYK/RGB match.
Seems a shame, we've been advising our customers if they want a close colour match to send us artwork with Pantone Colours embedded... but if Xara can't convert those correctly then maybe we should be asking for RGB colours instead.
Many thanks again for your answers, much appreciated.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ClubleyM
Many thanks for your detailed reply... hope your arm recovered ! :)
So in conclusion, it looks like any customers that send us PDF artwork which contain Pantone Colours, we'll need to replace those colours for an RGB equivalent to ensure that they get printed correctly on our CMYK Printer as Xara can't be relied on to print those Pantone Colours into a close CMYK/RGB match.
Seems a shame, we've been advising our customers if they want a close colour match to send us artwork with Pantone Colours embedded... but if Xara can't convert those correctly then maybe we should be asking for RGB colours instead.
Many thanks again for your answers, much appreciated.
No, your incorrect in that assumption. I have done many pantone work for clients. Just grab yourself a CMYK/Pantone book and punch in the numbers into Xara.
https://polycolors.ca/product/panton...AaAjt8EALw_wcB
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
See file attached, make sure you set your colors to simulate print colors. It is in the file. Use a pantone process color imaging guide.
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4 Attachment(s)
Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Hi! New user to Design Pro, i have been testing doing print documents in CMYK format, what i have seen is the color of black and grey when i export to pdf not in right CMYK value, i using Adobe Acrobat Pro to check the documents, in my job on a digital printshop we prepress and convert pdf to cmyk from our clients when we print. Problem here is that black and grey is build of all four colors an not in only black.
Our machine are counting click and costs more to print in color, when it is a document that should be in only black.
I test and make my own color of black and grey which be correct in export.
It would be nice if you could make your own color palette in CMYK and save that, but can't find that, the default looks to be in HSV, see picture
Attachment 124521Attachment 124522Attachment 124520Attachment 124523
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Every printer prints rich black with different values, it is best one asks the printer what the values are. Yes Acrobat pro is good for checking colors.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
As far as I'm aware, you CAN make your own CMYK palette.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
I think exporting 100% k [ie no CMY] black from Xara needs a specific PDF setting and not the default
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ander
...
It would be nice if you could make your own color palette in CMYK and save that, ...
You can. There is a utility to do so.
This is my default palette, CMY & K in 10 percent steps.
Attachment 124526
Mike
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
If i start a new drawing and draw a box in black like in the picture the black is made of four color when i export to pdf, but if you draw the black slider to zero and up again and do another same export, that box is made of only 100KAttachment 124527
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mwenz
You can. There is a utility to do so.
This is my default palette, CMY & K in 10 percent steps.
Attachment 124526
Mike
Thanks for all answer, this was interest, i can't find anything in the program to made a palette, where can i find this utility?
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
there is xpal, but I don't know how it stands re cmyk :
http://www.smokingun.co.uk/index/downloads
I would embed named colours in a [default] template blank file myself, and open the document palette on the colour line
I think the slider issue is a known quirk/bug you need to 'wake it up'
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
there is xpal, but I don't know how it stands re cmyk :
http://www.smokingun.co.uk/index/downloads
I would embed named colours in a [default] template blank file myself, and open the document palette on the colour line
I think the slider issue is a known quirk/bug you need to 'wake it up'
Thanks checking, Yes the easy way is made a document with small box and name this colors the palette i want, and minimize it as an group and put it outside document area, and save it like a template, then when open this template the color is there :)
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
there is xpal, but I don't know how it stands re cmyk :
http://www.smokingun.co.uk/index/downloads
I would embed named colours in a [default] template blank file myself, and open the document palette on the colour line
I think the slider issue is a known quirk/bug you need to 'wake it up'
Actually, I use JCWpad.
I have attached my simple palette. DO MAKE A BACKUP OF YOUR STANDARD PALETTE...
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mwenz
Actually, I use JCWpad.
I have attached my simple palette. DO MAKE A BACKUP OF YOUR STANDARD PALETTE...
Thanks for that, i tested a little and it works fine.
I have made a little simple group of color that i save in my templates now, just beside of the document and when i open this templates my color is there.
included a sample.Attachment 124538
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
mike of course, the things you forget... i have that somewhere
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
behzad
Ok.. Sadly I think a lot of people haven't read the original post... Or maybe I suck at explaining the problem.
The screen grab that we posted shows the colours that come directly from the Pantone Website (and book) But both the Pantone Colour selected in Xara and the CMYK that comes from the Pantone CP book of that colour comes out totally different than if you put in the RGB colours or the HEX colours ALSO supplied by the Pantone web site for that same Pantone colour that you're trying to create.
If you choose that Pantone Colour (3145C) from your Pantone Pallet in Xara, and Colour a Square with it, then put the CMYK values in and the HEX and RGB values, from the web site I quoted (Pantone's web site) do they all display the same colour? Do they all print the same colour? ( I did upload a XARA file demonstrating this too)
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ClubleyM
Ok.. Sadly I think a lot of people haven't read the original post... Or maybe I suck at explaining the problem.
The screen grab that we posted shows the colours that come directly from the Pantone Website (and book) But both the Pantone Colour selected in Xara and the CMYK that comes from the Pantone CP book of that colour comes out totally different than if you put in the RGB colours or the HEX colours ALSO supplied by the Pantone web site for that same Pantone colour that you're trying to create.
If you choose that Pantone Colour (3145C) from your Pantone Pallet in Xara, and Colour a Square with it, then put the CMYK values in and the HEX and RGB values, from the web site I quoted (Pantone's web site) do they all display the same colour? Do they all print the same colour? ( I did upload a XARA file demonstrating this too)
I test making the same here, and the color that xara shows on screen with these values CMYK and Pantone looks the same on my screen as yours.
If thats you asking? Looks like xara shows these value wrong on display. The output of pdf is correct, checked color value in Acrobat Pro,
Print it on my job in an Konica Minolta 1100C, included o photo i take of that print, it looks right there to.
Tested in CorelDraw and it shows CMYK and Pantone right there on screen. Looks like Xara has little color problems.
Export to pdf and print pdf, else xara print the colors on screen, think thats the problem for you
Attachment 124551 Attachment 124552
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Xara only has an RGB workspace - like mike said
so it is pointless looking at anything on a screen from this program that is not RGB
you have to 'dead reckon' your pantone/cmyk print [or check it in acrobat which has a true workspace that will compensate]
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
Xara only has an RGB workspace - like mike said
so it is pointless looking at anything on a screen from this program that is not RGB
you have to 'dead reckon' your pantone/cmyk print [or check it in acrobat which has a true workspace that will compensate]
Ok i understand that, but on Magix site i can read this on CMYK support
Attachment 124553
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
you can do what it says, you just can't monitor it on the screen in Xara as you work and expect colour fidelity
when I said pointless, I meant from the point of view of colour matching - you will just have to take what you see on the monitor on trust that it will look right when it is printed, which it should if you have used the correct cmyk values and you print cmyk - but the advice is always to check it in acrobat or another proofing program that does have a cmyk colour space [but even then additive colour will never look exactly the same as subtractive colour - the only true test is in the print]
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
you can do what it says, you just can't monitor it on the screen in Xara as you work and expect colour fidelity
when I said pointless, I meant from the point of view of colour matching - you will just have to take what you see on the monitor on trust that it will look right when it is printed, which it should if you have used the correct cmyk values and you print cmyk - but the advice is always to check it in acrobat or another proofing program that does have a cmyk colour space [but even then additive colour will never look exactly the same as subtractive colour - the only true test is in the print]
Your viewing in RGB, even in acrobat your still viewing it in RGB, because all monitors are designed that way. Color correction is something that after all these years is a hit and miss situation unless your clients want an exact match, you will have a great challenge trying to please them. In my agreement I do mention that cmyk colors come our duller than screen colors etc...
...Printers produce optimal colors but due to the complexities of color-matching across devices, they cannot match colors exactly as it might appear on your monitor, printer or similar proofing device and there are no guarantees that colors across multiple printed materials will look the same. Printed colors always appear duller and darker on paper. To have colors match across multiple print materials please ask for a new quote which will be costlier and includes color proof.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
true enough which is why I added the bit in parenthesis - and your monitors need to be calibrated and have a high enough gamut for the RGB to be 'accurate' and match across devices
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Nice one. But For average joe blow as a client that only makes things more complicated.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
all life is complicated - the secret is to know how best to simplify it ;)
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ander
I test making the same here, and the color that xara shows on screen with these values CMYK and Pantone looks the same on my screen as yours.
If thats you asking? Looks like xara shows these value wrong on display. The output of pdf is correct, checked color value in Acrobat Pro,
Print it on my job in an Konica Minolta 1100C, included o photo i take of that print, it looks right there to.
Tested in CorelDraw and it shows CMYK and Pantone right there on screen. Looks like Xara has little color problems.
Export to pdf and print pdf, else xara print the colors on screen, think thats the problem for you
Attachment 124551 Attachment 124552
Thanks for your tests..
I just want to clarify that I TOTALLY understand that a monitor screen colour will look different to printed media. I get that totally and that's not the issue here.
Screen grabs that I posted were just to help explain the problem. I don't design by screen colours, I get that totally.
However, I also raised the question with MAGIX and they've been able to replicate the problem, and are now discussing it with Development.
The problem is upon printing, it always has been. If artwork contains Pantone Colours, or even CMYK colours, you would HOPE that when you print it, it comes out as a close match to the Pantone colour that it's referencing. But to come out as a totally different colour, is not acceptable.
I shall update you all when Magix come back with a resolution to it.
I do appreciate your time and input however, it's been an interesting read.
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Have you done a similar test with adobe illustrator? What has been your findings?
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Re: Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ClubleyM
Thanks for your tests..
I just want to clarify that I TOTALLY understand that a monitor screen colour will look different to printed media. I get that totally and that's not the issue here.
Screen grabs that I posted were just to help explain the problem. I don't design by screen colours, I get that totally.
However, I also raised the question with MAGIX and they've been able to replicate the problem, and are now discussing it with Development.
The problem is upon printing, it always has been. If artwork contains Pantone Colours, or even CMYK colours, you would HOPE that when you print it, it comes out as a close match to the Pantone colour that it's referencing. But to come out as a totally different colour, is not acceptable.
I shall update you all when Magix come back with a resolution to it.
I do appreciate your time and input however, it's been an interesting read.
Did you test export to pdf and print the pdf, is it wrong color too? In my test the color is more right and checking pdf in acrobat these cmyk and pantone value is exact as in xara