-
I am risking sounding like a pompous ass to most people here, but there are some with talent that might listen. I don't want to tout where I've been or what I've done (here it is if you want to see me put my money where my mouth is - http://www.sandsdesigns.com ) but I think I see a problem with Painter users and computer users in general. Just because your latest program has an image hose that paints trees, doesn't make you a landscape artist. Please people, use these new tools the way no one would expect, we can all spray the nozzel randomly on the canvas! And we all have! We just don't all post it as our latest fine art! I don't mean to degrade or desrespect anyone, I just want to see that we can (and I know we can) do better than the paint, the pencil, the software; whatever we choose as a tool. The use of a good tool marks a good artist, but it doesn't make him or her an artist!!!
SS
shawnsat
http://www.sandsdesigns.com
shawnsat@comcast.net
-
I am risking sounding like a pompous ass to most people here, but there are some with talent that might listen. I don't want to tout where I've been or what I've done (here it is if you want to see me put my money where my mouth is - http://www.sandsdesigns.com ) but I think I see a problem with Painter users and computer users in general. Just because your latest program has an image hose that paints trees, doesn't make you a landscape artist. Please people, use these new tools the way no one would expect, we can all spray the nozzel randomly on the canvas! And we all have! We just don't all post it as our latest fine art! I don't mean to degrade or desrespect anyone, I just want to see that we can (and I know we can) do better than the paint, the pencil, the software; whatever we choose as a tool. The use of a good tool marks a good artist, but it doesn't make him or her an artist!!!
SS
shawnsat
http://www.sandsdesigns.com
shawnsat@comcast.net
-
I think, Shawn, that this sort of post belongs in a all the forums. I for one feel very much like a cheat if I am using nozzles or stamps or any sort of 'brush' like that in my work. My work is my work and if I have to study tutorials, brush up on my freehand drawing skills (on real paper with real pencil and eraser http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif ) or scour the web looking for photographs for reference I do so.
We all can pop out fun 3D buttons and this and that in moments but take the time to really push your creative self to produce stuff that you can really call your own, on and off of the computer. Digital art should NOT be taken lightly. If it is then do you really think the art industry on whole is going to really be able to take any digital artist seriously??
Another friend here on TG, Steve, who also is a member of Pixelparity where I moderate (well, lately there really seems to be no reason to moderate http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/frown.gif ) posted a question and a true example of why a digital artist MUST prove to him/her self and to the art industry as well that creating a painting or 3D model or what ever on the computer is just as valid as getting out a pencil/pen/paint brush and applying it to paper/board/canvas and creating something from any number of ideas floating around in ones mind, from still life to fantastical space scenes. It's all relative to what the person can accomplish on and off of the computer.
Yes, I agree, next time you use a nozzle or stamp and then sign your name to the finished image, it's nice and it's beautiful but did you put 100% of your own talent into this image or was it pre-produced in many ways for you already? I agree that trees are not all that easy, nor animals but that is what true dedication to any given art project is all about. It's not only an expression of ones imagination but it's a learning process as well and when one learns and then accomplishes something positive with the information then the finished product is shown with real pride, knowing that it was all their doing and know one elses!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
I'm certainly not saying that the person reading this thread is not capable of being a true artist but just be honest with your self. I love all these cool things too but I honestly dont' think I have any thing out there on the web that was not 100% from ME and only ME (maybe one or two images with MINIMAL "props" that someone else put together but most of the time I just take the time to do it myself and if I need a brush or a stamp then I make my own!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif )!!
Thanks for bringing this up Shawn!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Richard http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
http://www.ramwolffsworld.com//Publi..._Prowl_sig.gif
http://www.ramwolffsworld.com/RAMWolffsWorld
-
howdy ramwolff and shawnsat.
I would suggest that the opinions you have of what constitutes art is predictable and somewhat naive. I wonder why it matters to you how anyone uses painter, as long as they are not stealing someone elses art.
Also there is another way to look at the appropriation of existing images. Not only can one make ones own hoses, but an intuitive artist can produce something remarkable from the ordinary.
for example check this post out by Sunny, http://talkgraphics.infopop.net/1/Op...1&m=2501990154 it uses some homemade image hoses to spectacular effect.
-
I can't see why how something was made matters in any way? Suffering, and thousands of hours of agony doesn't necessaraly make something more interesting to a viewer. The creator might get more satisfaction out of finishing something like that, but a viewer will just see the end result. All that matters in the end, is the finished piece. If it looks interesting - more power to you!
Shawn, I fail to see the point you are trying to make?
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
-
O' ... the tortured psyche of the sensitive Arteeest!
As John Stossel would say ... Give me a Break. Did Picasso worry about how his "style" would be received by the "art" world when he created STARRY NIGHT? ... Was Madonna trying to please the "purists" of the music industry when she developed her personna? ... I think not.
What makes a Monet better than a Manet? Truely Manet was the purer "Artist" since he developed his own style and subject matter ... Monet was one of at least 12 French impressionists who studied together and all painted the same subject matter in VERY similar styles. The difference is that a Monet painting will bring MUCH more at auction than a Manet of the same size and condition.
What is the point? ... UTILITY. If I produce a graphic for myself ... and I like it ... it is good art. If I produce a graphic for a car dealership ... and it sells cars (or brings people in) ... it is good art. If it is created for the public at large ... and it evokes an emotion or reaction ... is it NOT good art? What difference does it matter how the image was created ... and why should anyone care?
If you recall Galileo was forced to denounce his theory of the "earth being round" by the PURISTS ... who would have no such nonsense.
-Ed.
-
I use the image hose whenever it is needed. Not because I'm lazy, but because it fills a need. I understand your view on overusing it, but then you'd be out there waging war on dropshadows and bevels, too http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.
Lighten up, man.
You're serious about your work, but sometimes, you make something just for fun. Then you let your imagination run wild and flush down everything you learned about art down the toilet. So what? Many of those same ideas they teach you at school originated by random experimentation.
-
All good points!! I just happen to believe that "suffering" (as Risto put it http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif ) gives me more satisfaction than taking short cuts.
As I said, in XaraX I sure do love my drop shadows, bevels and other effects (RealDraw-Pro with it's 3D lights and mump maps) but when it gets down to the nitty gritty I go all the way "from the ground up" and I find it fun and adventurous as well as satisfying.
If someone uses a nozzle/stamp/what ever to help create an image that causes an emotional responce in the viewer then more power to them but wouldn't it be better to create your own and use them to your hearts content?? It's all yours and if you share with the community and see it in someone elses work then you know it's appreciated and all the hard work producing it is even more satisfying!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Steve Newport started a thread over at Pixelparity a little while back and I FINALLY found the darned thing. It's a pretty good read if your interested: *discussion* Digital Arts As I stated in my contribution to that thread, I totally understood his extreme disapointment but at the same time I know that traditional art is what's mostly accepted. If the serious digital artist is to make the art industry accept this medium as valid then to me and my work it's got to be all me or why bother. For fun web interfaces and buttons and other vector stuff I usually use drop shadows (which I could easily create myself but I don't) or a bevel (which I could build myself as well but I don't) but when it comes to the use of the object brushes in XaraX I usually steer clear of them unless I created it myself, then of course I will use it but actually I forget to use stuff like that most of the time anyway!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
In the end it comes down to: "Each to their own". Be creative using what's available or be creative working from the ground up. I prefer the latter for most of my work!! Nuff' said! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Richard http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
http://www.ramwolffsworld.com//Publi..._Prowl_sig.gif
http://www.ramwolffsworld.com/RAMWolffsWorld
[This message was edited by RAMWolff on March 18, 2004 at 17:58.]
-
I don't like Image Hoses or Tubes as they are called in PSP because they keep repeating an image in a very un-natural way especially when used in landscapes i.e. you see the same tree or group of trees over and over again when there are no two trees alike. If you are creating a design, where a repeat pattern is desirable then I suppose they could be useful. It would be the same as duplicating a vector shape, but those are pretty easy to see too, even when flipped or rotated.
If you want to just have fun playing around, then go for any plug-in you find interesting.
http://fasolt.mtcc.com/~mom/xsquirrel.gif
My Stuff
-
Richard,
Art, as in hanging in galleries, and museums, will always be in traditional media, one-of-a-kind-art... IMHO... Yes, one might argue that photography is as easily reproduced as a digital print - but hey, the cheapest Picasso painting equals all photography existing on the planet... (almost... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )
Why even strive for "art" when working digital? Art as in "hanging-in-galleries-art" when you can create imagery/designs under the strict (or not) guidelines of art directors of major magazines and make good money - if you are really good at what you do?
You can also make a lot of money on marketing prints/designs if you create something that people really want... why worry about "Fine (gallery) Art?!"
I don't get it? http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/confused.gif
Also, to clarify - I'm not a "Fine artist http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" nor am I an "accomplished illustrator/desiger http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" - to me, creating my pictures, is just a hobby, I do it for my own enjoyment - mostly http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif...
I have been lucky enough to being able to license/sell to some design agencies and private individuals (without going out there - they found me), but does it pay enough to feed my kids - not even close... However, the time I spend drawing is more productive than watching TV... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Also, I have learned a lot - should I ever get more time drawing my silly pictures. More importantly, I have learned a lot about how to go about finding the people that would like to use/have the silly things that I draw.
Having someone ask you to come up with something specific/that works - is a real reality check - I tell you! I really, really admire people that do this for a living!
None the less, I would never want to subject myself to the selling skills of a gallery representative - I would rather make/mess up my own fate with what the things I do...
Steve Newport, who you mentioned, is unbelievable skilled. He is just a kid (Sorry, Steve - you will ALWAYS be a kid to me - EVEN when you have kids of your own... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif) but he will develope skills that people will pay for - I'm sure. Will his creations hang in galleries and museums - probaly not - but will he care when he drives his Ferrari up to one of his houses - I don't think so... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
-
I wouldn't go into the what constitutes art debate. But Shawn's topic got this silly image into my head :
http://home.pchome.com.tw/art/grafixman/ban.gif
True, you shouldn't take things too lightly everytime. But if you don't enjoy it, why bother with it?
-
Grafixman - So that would make me God then? All I use are things I could cut out of paper using my kid's scissors? Or draw it using their crayons..
The point I (and Ed) were trying to make was - "who cares?"
Where do you measure the length of your penis from? - Who cares? Life is too short (http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif) to worry about these kind of things.
Just use the tools that you were blessed to get your hands on - and I'm positive that you will feel ok at the end of the day... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
This is such a guy (insecure guy) thing... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
[This message was edited by Risto Klint on March 19, 2004 at 0:13.]
-
He cares. You don't. I take my stand somewhere in between. You could call it worrying, while I would consider it as something to ponder upon, or maybe just give a passing thought. Somebody expressed an opinion. You may not like it, I may not like it, but the guy is free to voice it out. Just as I'm free to make fun of it, but I wouldn't throw insults at him. Judi thinks he's ok.
-
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Grafixman: ... but I wouldn't throw insults at him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
--- Right you are about that - really bad choice of words on my part. http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
It does get me going when people voice what other people should or should not do - what is worthy and what is not - who should have a title and who should not - what is good enough to be posted and what is not... Blanket statements about what other people do, or should do, is not all that 'nice.'
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
-
True, being told what should or should not be done gets me irritated too. But then I'd start doing the very same thing in return. Curious reaction, huh? http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Shawn, are you reading this, or do you just post a topic and forget about it entirely?
I said earlier that I would not go into what and what is not art, but it's something to think about, too. To me, art is expressing yourself. Like speaking, or singing and dancing, or drawing. Some gets paid a lot of money for it, some starve. But we do it because we like it.
As for computer/traditional artwork, consider this:
http://home.pchome.com.tw/art/grafixman/shitart.gif
Something to think about, too.
Risto, I like your style. The longer you look at them, the more you discover.
-
-
I rather like the virtual crap. I also like that since it was created so quickly its creator has time available to produce even more! (More crap that is. http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif )
I find my views very similar to Risto on this subjects of this thread.
This debate reminded me that there are "artists" and "critics" who have trouble with those who paint with acrylics vs. oils. There are even people who believe the true artist must make his or her own paints! IMHO techniques and tools are ultimately irrelevant. What is really interesting is human expression and what we are able to communicate to one another. It is joyful to create, and to experience, emotions & ideas being expressed by lines, tones, and colours. Whether they are created with pixels, paint, graphite, or blood, it doesn't matter if there is communication.
Regards, Ross
-
Right between the eyes, Ross! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Well, we all do it everyday.
My point is: Shit stinks, either way. I would have drawn a rose for comparison (a rose, by any other name...), but given my abilities, I thought I had a better shot doing the reverse statement http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif.
I heard of someone making sculptures out of kidney stones...
-
I'm not a student of art history but I know there has been considerable debate on was is and is not art. The dada movement with its famous artist-signed common urinal was a significant statement that "it is art if I say it is". That sentiment was later reinforced by Piero Manzoni in 1961 when he canned his own doodoo. Here is a can here. If I'm not mistaken Piero produced 90 cans and gave them to his friends at a dinner party. The artsy gift received lots of media attention adding to the debate on art.
You can find another pic and more info here. I imagine if you had one of his cans you could probably retire on the proceeds of selling it! Piero also signed human models thereby transforming them into signed sculptural artworks. I wonder if he used a permanent marker??
Regards, Ross
PS - Have much fun or,if you prefer, deep anguish creating. And please keep sharing it with others. They might think it is crap - it might even be crap! It doesn't matter. Just doo it!
<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>
-
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They might think it is crap - it might even be crap!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-
Mike, after you were finished what did you use to clean the scanner?? http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Actually I think it is rather cool in a spooky sort of way. It communicates something...plus it is a signed work.
Regards, Ross
-
http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. I like this one, Mike.
"Just doo it!" Great catchphrase, Ross. I think I'll make a banner out of it and hang it somewhere. Talk about deep shit.
-
Swoosh on over to your washroom and hang your banner there!
Sorry for getting things off topic.
Regards, Ross
-
1 Attachment(s)
Oh, my... This 'off-topic' diversion is relevant for all of us...
Mike - http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif That one would look wonderful in frame, and hanging on a gallery wall!
I thought I would come up with my own... I had so much fun with this one, that I'm planning a whole series now...
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
-
That looks good Risto. It shows you are a man who appreciates all of life.
Ultimately we all share the same air, water, and food nuitrients and the same capacity for learning and experience. What we have that is unique is our imaginations. We don't have to share our thoughts but it can be a wonderful when we do. (Sometimes at least http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). Thanks to all of you for sharing. Your 'art' gives us glimpses into those private imaginations and from those glimpses we get a richer experience of life.
Regards, Ross
PS - the violin music can stop now.
-
1 Attachment(s)
-
Mr. Hanky!
I have missed you! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
The show (South Park) got cancelled on the channels I get... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I'm waiting for the complete/full/all-minutes DVD set to come out!
Love that show!
Risto
risto@ristoklint.com
Visit my web site!
-
Wow Risto, now THIS is fit to hang on a wall.
Post one shitty topic and it gets buried in it.
-
While I can certainly agree with the level of aggravation at seeing an overuse of nozzles, lens flares, page curls, or any other type of "click N go" type graphic effects, at the end of the day, the point is moot. There are millions of people out there with oil paints, canvas and brushes who churn out stuff that you would not line your trashbin with. Do you fret and condemn them for being no-talent idjits? Of course not!
The same can be said for anyone with a copy of Painter, Photoshop, Maya, or any Graphic App that exists. To attempt to stifle or censor those, to whom simple effects are the mainstay of their creations, is akin to spitting in the wind. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Shit Art (ice cream analogies aside) is shit art. Get over yourself and move on...
As a "serious" graphic artist, I could give a rat's ass whether someone spends weeks on their second-rate, poor quality, overused effects work or not. It makes ME feel better about MY work, knowing that side by side, the average viewer (and client) will more willingly pay me for my work over theirs...
This discussion reminds me of a Yahoo! group for KPT users. There was one member whose entire focus was the creation of teddy bears. At least once a day, she would post her latest creation, a teddy bear of some sort or another, accented and/or enhanced with the various KPT effects...after about 3-4 days, I learned to skip the threads she started, knowing full well what my eyes would see. Should I have told her to stop wasting her time making shitty teddy bears with one of the most powerful plug-ins made? Hell NO! This little gal enjoyed what she created, and wanted to share it. Ditto for all the lousy oil/watercolor/pastel/charcoal/Name your Medium Here "artists."
Go over to www.wetcanvas.com and pick any artistic discipline Forum board you like. Look at the true shit some people post on a VERY regular basis. They are proud of what they've created. No matter whether anyone else thinks it is worth the electrons on your monitor to display it. Another truly horrendous example is Sal Marino's art. This stuff looks SO bad it can make you wonder why people are allowed to own graphics applications. He has tried on numerous graphics sites and forums to promote his artistic style, which he terms "funism," but I don't think he has yet to sell one piece of his work. The man is in his 50's...
Get over yourself as the guardian of the proper usage of software applications. There will always be those to whom a Lens Flare, or a nozzle brush are the pinnacle of artistic expression. And, more power to them. If creating something, no matter HOW awful others may view it, makes them happy, then let them enjoy their creation. Don't try to dissuade them. That is unproductive, and pompous, as you so very astutely observed in your original post. Go do your own thing, and stop trying to make others do theirs to fit YOUR expectations...
BTW, Risto's rhetorical question of "Where do you measure the length of your penis from?" Should be put on a tee shirt. It truly exemplifies the reality of everyone's POV as being valid. To them, if no one else...
-
To add to MsOz's eloquent post,
A good many of those folks who create less than skilled pieces of "art" are paying for the software which helps not only the software company, it helps all of us.
Because.. without people buying software, obviously, the software companies can't afford to continue developing it.. then can't afford to stay in business.
This is not to say that many who do less than skilled, exciting, or even mediocre work are paying for software. To my great surprise and dismay, I learned early on, on the Internet, that many grown women who should know better have no qualms about using pirated software and/or violating copyrights in other areas as well.
Not only kids are thieves!
So there! MsOz and I have had our say.. right, MsOz? http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
