PDF CMYK Problem

Hi,

I am using Xtreme Pro V4 and am exporting to PDF to provide print-ready CMYK

When I print direct from Xara the colour is pretty well a perfect match to the hard copy CMYK colour chart I have. However when I export the drawing as a PDF/X an then print, the colours are way off. I've fiddled with just about every setting in the PDF export dialog (none of which I understand) except they all say CMYK, but to no avail.

I have attached screen shots showing the difference between Xara and the PDF. The printed version of the PDF looks the same as the screen version (and is wrong). The screen version of Xara is quite different to the printed version (of course), but the printed version is true CMYK

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks
Patrick

ofcourse this will happen anyways. The left bar is RGB and right side is what CMYK looks like in RGB.
So with that said your best bet is to have a pantone swatch booklet and also when you go to press as for a hard proof.

You can only ever see simulations of CMYK on a monitor because monitors always work with RGB (the colours of light).

CMYK is print/ink colours and cannot be accurately simulated via 'light' on a screen, so different software may show a different result 'on screen'.

Xara allows you to view simulated printer colours via 'Window - Show Printer Colors' menu item.

However, as behzad says - provided you work to the same CMYK values or PMS colours, then you shoud be fine.

Thanks Guys, but you may be misunderstanding my problem...

I have no issue with how the colours are representing on the screen; I know they're quite different. My problem is that the printed output from the PDF i.e. Acrobat, is quite different to the printed output of Xara. Xara prints (hard copy) true CMYK, near as I can tell anyway. PDF prints the way it looks on the screen, which isn't near what it looks like on screen in Xara, nor is it CMYK on paper.

So my problem is, how do I get a PDF printout to be the same CMYK colour as a Xara CMYK printout?

I don't care what colour they are on screen

Thanks
Patrick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Newbietoo

When I print direct from Xara the colour is pretty well a perfect match to the hard copy CMYK colour chart I have. However when I export the drawing as a PDF/X an then print, the colours are way off.

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What are you sending the the PDF to the printer *from*
Adobe Reader? Other?

PDF X-Change Viewer or Acrobat; doesn't make any difference. And I can't see any adjustments in them that impact this

I've often noticed that Adobe reader will sometimes not display PDF's created by Xara at all, when Foxit will without any trouble at all..
Foxit Reader also does a far better job based on my limited experience of printing from a PDF.
Have you tried by-passing Xara's PDF export and using something like PDF Re-Direct Print Driver set to CMYK mode and comparing? (see screenshot)

Also, exporting from Xara, I find PDF v 1.3 or 1.4 gives the best results - but that be due to my limited use/need for the format.

Commercially, the shop I work part-time at don't print directly from PDF.
If a PDF is supplied, it's loaded into CorelDraw where the colour matching is checked before exporting to the RIP.

Member minimro would have more experience than I in this regard..

OK, well now the plot thickens...thanks for that Sledger.

If I print to PDF (instead of exporting) i.e. using a PDF Print Driver the colours are correct i.e the screen views of XARA and the PDF document are the same.

ALSO I have discovered if I use the RGB setting in PDF Export i.e. NOT the CMYK setting, the PDF colours are correct; that is correct CMYK in the printed output.

So maybe I've been fundamentally misunderstanding something here. This has been my process:

1. In XARA create the drawing and use CMYK colour values selected from a hard copy CMYK colour chart (on screen the colour looks nothing like on paper of course)

2. Export PDF and select CMYK...the printed colours are wrong and the PDF on screen colours are different to those in Xara

3. Instead of (2) Export PDF and select RGB (see image)...the printed colours match the CMYK colour chart and the PDF looks the same on screen as Xara on screen

...what am I not getting here?

Thanks for your help

For print read PDF using CMYK you should be using the Commercial Printing options (PDF/X) which is designed to only produce CMYK colours.

You can use any other PDF export option, but I see that your Color Model drop-down has RGB selected - which means all colors get converted to RGB. That drop-down should be either Native (which means color will be exported in the model they are in Xtreme) or select CMYK which will convert all colors to CMYK.

That's what I would have thought, but that's not happening (that's the whole problem). The PDF printer (not export) from Xara IS producing true CMYK hardcopy...the colours in Xara were nominated as CMYK; hey look bright on the screen of course but print the exact CMYK in PDF Print.

But in PDF/X with CMYK or Native (my first option and I thought the most obvious) selected they're something else altogether. However, if I select RGB in the PDF/X options the hardcopy matches the CMYK paper chart

I'm printing on a Canon PIXMA 4000 with separate CMYK tanks, which I am then comparing with Serif hard copy CMYK color chart

So the PDF is correct (i.e. from what you can tell on screen), but printing it to your printer is not correct, is that right?

So in other words when viewing in Adobe/Acrobat Reader the colour appear dull, rather than bright green? (CMYK colours are always more dull of course).

By the way you can make the screen look (approximately) like hard copy CMYK colors in Xara just by selecting the Windows -> Show Printer Colors -> Simulate Print Colors.

Yes that's right, when CMYK settings are used in PDF export the colours appear very dull when viewed on screen in a PDF (refer my first post) and that's pretty much how they print too.

However in Xara they look bright green, but when A) printed direct from Xara they are just right, or B) when printed via the PDF printer as a PDF Doc and then Printeed they are right and C) when exported by PDF/X and set to "RGB" they are right. That is A, B and C all look the same on screen (bright green) but result in the same CMYK hard copy (toned down green).

...A, B, C produce a colour that is close to the Xara screen with "Simulate Print Colours" switched on as you suggested

But that is not what PDF/X (or any of the PDF export options; I have tried them all) set to Native or CMYK produces; in that case, the colours aren't recognisable RGB or CMYK (they're muddy green)

OK, so this is complicated. I wonder if one, slim, possibility is that for some reason your Adobe reader has screwed print profile that's causing it not to print correctly. I don't know enough about Acrobat reader options to know whether you have control over this.

It could be that, for some weird reason, Acrobat doesn't like your printer, and converts everything to RGB when printing (it's not unknown that Inkjet printer drivers really screw with colours). Perhaps a Google search on Acrobat with Canon Pixma printers.

But since you say the PDF looks correct, but just doesn't print correct, this really suggests this is as Adobe / Acrobat problem doesn't it?

When selecting the PDF/X option, we can't and do not include any RGB values at all - (the PDF/X requires only CMYK colours), so again it's difficult to see any circumstance where Xara can affect the colours here.

Have you tried different ICC colour profiles in the pre-press tab of the export dialog? (it's available when you select CMYK color model, as we use this to convert RGB colors to CMYK ones).

So Charles are you saying that notwithstanding I select "RGB" in PDF/X the
output is in fact still CMYK? So it is an input setting rather than output? That doesn't seem right somehow given it would know what Xara is sending it?

There are no adjustments I can find in Acrobat or any other PDF Reader for that matter that mention colour in anything other than a broad context e.g. resolution of JPG's let alone a mention of CMYK or RGB

I have been Googling PIXMA, CMYK and Acrobat and have come up with a blank so far.

Unfortunately, I can't go with ICC as the printer has forbade it.

Anyway, at the end of the day, if it "looks" OK I guess it is eh? And if indeed PDF/X is always CMYK output (pending your confirmation of that) , then I should be OK...a case of "she'll be right mate" as we say here!

Thanks for your help

It might be worth your while to see what happens in a couple of non-Adobe pdf readers.

As sledger says, a lot of people prefer FoxIt. When my boss needed a freebie reader because the Adobe product was screwing up, I found that the reader from VeryPDF was the best for his needs.

One would think that Adobe apps would be the best for handling pdfs. Sometimes they are, but in many, many cases, they aren't. In tests I ran over several years, the Jaws Editor usually did a better job displaying pdfs and often when printing them. My service bureau routinely chose Jaws pdfs over Acrobat when I gave them a choice.

I haven't compared Jaws Editor 4 and Acro 8 (the current versions) because I'm currently running an Adobe-free machine, and we have no need to upgrade Acro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Newbietoo

So Charles are you saying that notwithstanding I select "RGB" in PDF/X the
output is in fact still CMYK?

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I didn't think you could select RGB on PDF-X. I certainly can't in Xtreme 4.

Surely if you have the Canon printer there you can just print from Xara direct and you've got what you're looking for haven't you?

If you are preparing the job for a print bureau then you will always have an unknown factor to take into account. What software are they using at their end?

I have this to consider (I have another CMYK thread running here) and the first and foremost thing is that most print bureau's use Macs, so some kind of conversion likely takes place when they get the file anyway.

Quote:

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are you saying that notwithstanding I select "RGB" in PDF/X the
output is in fact still CMYK?

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Er, you can't select RGB when creating PDF/X files, as Jimi says. The option (on the PDF export dialog) is greyed. In PDF/X all colors, no matter what they start as, are converted to CMYK in the process of creating the PDF/X.

And also you do not get a choice of ICC colour profile. The PDF/X specification requires that there is one. So you'll see the Pre-Press tab will have selected an ICC profile for you. I suggest you try other ones from that list to see if that makes any difference.

If you select anything with a pdf/x then all colors will be converted into cmyk.
If you select the readers then you remain RGB colors.
For going to press you need pdf/x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charles Moir

Er, you can't select RGB when creating PDF/X files, as Jimi says. The option (on the PDF export dialog) is greyed. In PDF/X all colors, no matter what they start as, are converted to CMYK in the process of creating the PDF/X.

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OOPS! My apologies Charles, I should have clarified...I selected the PDF/X option in the first Dialog, then selected "Advanced" and got to the PDF Export Options Dialog. From there I selected Adobe PDF which does make RGB and Native available. I guess I see...yes at that point I am not in PDF/X mode (I got a bit confused as PDF/X was where I had started)...I have played with that may permutations and combinations to try and work out what is happening, I'm confusing myself.

...and learning a lot more about PDF, CMYK et al than I ever wanted to know!

So I guess what I have been doing in Export mode was emulating what I had been doing in "printing" to PDF? If I select CMYK while in Adobe Reader mode the output is the same as PDF/X in CMYK

Jimi, I'm just using the Canon for a test; the work will be done by a Printer who specified "no ICC" so I guess that means no PDF/X...I hadn't noticed those two things were mutually dependent until Charles' comment.

Notwithstanding it appears I have created RGB PDF's, how come the printed outcome is an exact match for the CMYK colour chart? This GIF explains what I mean; the on-paper green albeit RGB in this example is a close match for what the XARA CMYK colour actually looks like on paper. The question is, if in XARA the colours are CMYK and they then get exported to PDF (RGB apparently, given the way I've been doing it) and look the same on screen in the PDF as in XARA on screen, are the colours "in" the PDF CMYK or RGB? How can I tell...there's no "Properties" I can see in the PDF that tell me that...and it makes no difference what Reader I use.

Guys, sorry if I seem thick or am belabouring this, but it's not that obvious to me what is happening here and again many thanks for your help and forebearance

From personal experience I would suggest the following (bearing in mind what I said earlier about print bureaus and Macs).

Export the file as a PDF and click the preset option "Commercial Printing", then click "Advanced Options". I double checked the following today with my print shop on a new job I sent over this afternoon. It is however what I had used last time and the results were fine:

• In the general tab they said select PDF/X-1A 2001.
• In the objects tab click the box that says "Convert text to Shapes", set the bitmap quality to 100%.
• In the layers tab click "Include crop marks..."
• In the Pre-Press tab keep the recommended "U.S. Web Coated SWOP"

Your printer might tell you different, in which case I suggest you read the options to him over the phone and do as he says.

I would expect that you'll find that in the case of shapes, lines and text, provided you used CMYK values when you created them you'll probably get what you hoped for, or pretty close.

With bitmaps, they're likely to turn out slightly different as you are basically converting RGB to CMYK at export and then asking an Adobe piece of software to save it in PC format and then probably open it on a Mac.

If you have used any transparencies, shadows or gradients it's anyones guess how they might go. Printing out your PDF exported file might give you an idea, but in reality a desktop printer does not accurately reproduce a four colour print process, at least not in my experience it doesn't.

If in doubt, ask the printer for a chromalin proof or similar before he runs with the whole job, particularly if it's a big run.

Thanks Jimi

The prints are pretty straightforward at this stage e.g. Business Cards, without bit maps. When it gets more complicated we may well move to a different printer.

I think what I'm learning here (and I'm not a neophyte in computer graphics, but I am when it comes to printing CMYK) is that it's an even more inexact science than printing usually is, as we're dealing standards for incomparable mediums that have no direct cross-relationship.

I'm figuring that if the printed output looks right and that it is quite different to what the PDF looks like on screen, then the CMYK information is in the PDF file and that I'm likely to get the same result if I send that PDF file to the printer

A different, but related question. If I can print RGB from my CMYK printer and it near enough matches the RGB on screen, why can't professional printers do that?

Thanks
Patrick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Newbietoo

Thanks Jimi
A different, but related question. If I can print RGB from my CMYK printer and it near enough matches the RGB on screen, why can't professional printers do that?

Thanks
Patrick

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Coz they need to be able to suck their teeth, exchange amused glances, blow out their cheeks and say 'well, that's going to cost you'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amoore

It might be worth your while to see what happens in a couple of non-Adobe pdf readers.

As sledger says, a lot of people prefer FoxIt. When my boss needed a freebie reader because the Adobe product was screwing up, I found that the reader from VeryPDF was the best for his needs.

One would think that Adobe apps would be the best for handling pdfs. Sometimes they are, but in many, many cases, they aren't. In tests I ran over several years, the Jaws Editor usually did a better job displaying pdfs and often when printing them. My service bureau routinely chose Jaws pdfs over Acrobat when I gave them a choice.

I haven't compared Jaws Editor 4 and Acro 8 (the current versions) because I'm currently running an Adobe-free machine, and we have no need to upgrade Acro.

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I recently installed the Adobe Reader 8 (the latest version) on my Windows XP-2 computer. That was a big mistake. What a resource hog! It constantly tried to "phone home" to see if there were any updates, and in so doing, it took up 100% of my resources, making my computer completely unusable. To rid myself of this troublesome priest, I had to boot into safe mode.

After I installed Foxit reader, I wrote Adobe an email explaining to them that I did not get my computer so it could do nothing but check to see if I had the latest Adobe reader. Sheesh!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Newbietoo

http://www.talkgraphics.com/attachme...1&d=1208905002

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Of course you realise that this is no comparison at all.
Unless you have a perfectly calibrated monitor profile AND the correct paper for your home Pixma printer and ink combination.
Inks ain't inks and paper ain't paper ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Newbietoo

If I can print RGB from my CMYK printer and it near enough matches the RGB on screen, why can't professional printers do that?

Thanks
Patrick

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Our domestic/office printers are trying to emulate the professional process, not the other way round.

Your PC printer deposits all the colours in one pass. A professional bureau makes four separate passes (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow & Black) to arrive at the final print.

Many printers are now doing digital printing which I believe is similar to the single pass method, but they are primarily designed to make smaller runs and larger sizes easier & financially viable. They're not the same as, or generally as good as the four colour (or in some cases six colour) process.

Actually, for the record, your colour 5FBC47 is not RGB. It's the hexidecimal reference for RGB as used by web browsers. Xara very kindly gives you both. The RGB reference is represented by three values (Red, Green And Blue) shown as percentages.

And like Sledger says, that colour is meaningless. Look at it on six different monitors and you'll likely see six different colours.

BTW, you might find this great little free widget useful.

http://www.nattyware.com/pixie.html

very handy indeed jim..thanks tao

Quote:

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BTW, you might find this great little free widget useful.

http://www.nattyware.com/pixie.html

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Quote:

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A different, but related question. If I can print RGB from my CMYK printer and it near enough matches the RGB on screen, why can't professional printers do that?

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It's my experience that modern inkjet printers have extended the color gamut (i.e. the range of possible colors) considerably over the last 5 years or so, way beyond what traditional CMYK commercial printers can achieve, and I think that's part of the answer.

Having said that no printers is ever going to produce true fluorescent colours as you can get on screen. Take 100% pure RGB green. This really is ultra-bright fluorescent colour that is way outside the range of any printer I know. And ultimately that's the source of the whole problem - you can see a much wider range of colors on screen than the printer. Hence the whole complex process of converting RGB to CMYK colours is needed. And although there is a lot of science behind it all, the process and knowledge required to really understand is huge. This is part of the reasons we do not offer these advanced CMYK facilities in the entry level Xara Xtreme - because it is a complex area.

It's also known that traditional printer's CMYK inks are pretty poor - certainly they are not the pure CMY colors they should be. Were they accurate then the K (black) component would not be necessary. As it is if you print 100% CMY, the theory is this should be pure black, but in practice is a rather muddy brown. And so this is partly why K was added, and the software has to go through a hugely complex processes called grey component replacement and undercolor removal, to convert RGB colors to CMYK. There are myriad different ways to do this, and this is what the ICC Pre-press profile manages - each of those profiles is a slightly different equation for converting RGB to CMYK, which has slightly different color weighting and conversion rules.

The Xara 'Simulate Printer Color' option is there to convert the screen colors to more accurately reflect what you see on a printer. It doesn't help that Adobe do things a slightly different way around. They (in Adobe Reader for example), show CMYK colors always in 'simulate print colors' fashion and always show RGB colors as bright screen colors, even though that is not an accurate reflection of how they will print. The Xara 'simulate print colors' approach is simpler in that we just show all colors on screen (RGB or CMYK) in the printer gamut. This explains why the same color in RGB and CMYK appears quite different in Adobe software, whereas they are shown the same in Xara (that is bright in screen mode, dull in 'simulate print color' mode).

A basic set of guidelines, that should always produce reliable results, is this:

1. Switch 'Simulate Print Colors' option on to get a better idea of how your colors will look printed. (This is not 100% accurate, but no system is. It's a rough guide only, but certainly better than 'Screen Color' mode)
2. Generally we recommend using RGB (or HSV - which is just another type of RGB) colors for all normal purposes (photos from Digital Cameras are all RGB, and and it's better not to use other software to convert these to CMYK)
3. Use specific CMYK values only when you have a very specific CMYK color to be reproduced. e.g. a specific Pantone color. Avoid CMYK colors if you at all can.
4. Do not mix transparency with CMYK colors. i.e. if you put transparent shapes over CMYK colored objects, even feathered shapes, or shadowed objects, then the CMYK values underneath are messed with and will not reproduce accurately. So a basic rule: do not mix transparency and CMYK colors. Always use RGB (or HSV) colors when using anything that involves transparency. This will produce more reliable results.
5. When sending PDFs to commercial printers, always select the 'Commercial Printing' PDF/X option, and preview the results in Adobe Reader.
6. For larger commercial print jobs always get a wet proof, i.e. a real printed example from your printer for checking.

If you follow these guidelines then you should get very good results all the time. We, and we know many customers, regularly produce high-quality, large print run commercial brochures, leaflets or posters. We know Xara can produce results as good as anything Adobe can, and usually a whole lot easier, certainly quicker, and usually you do not need to understand any, well much, CMYK science.

Ooops, sorry for the long post.

Thank you for the LONG post, Charles. I really appreciate all the explanations you gave. It´s hard to get a global "consistent" view of what´s going on specially with subjects like this one, regarding the use of Xtreme.

Trying to get the handle of all this from diferent sources with diferent experiences usually only complicate things more.

This is (at least for me) the most "obscured" area (print, colors) when working with xtreme. Not because the software isn´t able to do it, but because i have not found yet a clear idea/workflow of how to get reliable results when mixing images coming from diferent proveniences (with diferent color spaces), with and without ICC´s, with vectors all in the same project without screwing up something.

I dont´know what i should worry about first! How the icc´s embeded in images interfere with the work in xtreme, if i should retouch the images in photoshop first before importing them to Xara (that will display them diferently showing diferent retouched/colours at least on screen), etc.

I don´t want to even talk about joining acrobat to the party to preview the results...

But i have to get there, and this thread looks a good way to start messing with all this stuff...

Yes thank you Charles...I fear I have unleashed a monster with this topic

I have been doing more research as some of you have suggested and succeeded in plumbing ever greater depths of confusion

Where this all started was that I had thought, naively it seems, that given I have a CMYK Printer I could produce a reasonable facsimile of what a "Professional" printer will produce with his CMYK Printer. Just select CMYK colours in Xara...export to PDF, then print, and Bob's your uncle. BUT...

Apparently there is compensation upon compensation happening here e.g. my Canon Printer (or at least the driver) is doing its best to emulate RGB, notwithstanding I have applied CMYK colours to my images. That is perhaps because the average punter expects his printer to print what he sees on his screen...silly person :). Only joking!

I did find in some forum where you can get specialist drivers e.g for Epson printers at circa $300+ (this is a just driver mind you not a printer) to get them to print CMYK.

So perhaps there is no way, other than getting a wet print as Charles suggests, of being sure what the eventual colour will be. Unfortunately this is only feasible with larger jobs. With business cards they aren't interested

Thanks again folks for all your help. And yes, that little "Natty" thingy Jim is handy.

Patrick

I don't think the options of ordering from Brisbane would be too attractive price wise given that these guys are in the UK, but they are the printers I use for all my stuff.

http://www.rcs.plc.uk/

They are very good and they'll do a wet proof on anything as far as I can see (however it practically doubles the cost of a set of business cards).

You're right Jimi the UK is a bit far for business cards :( Thanks anyway

Patrick

Thought you all might like to know how this all panned out.

In the end, I decided to use just the standard "Print" function, printing to a PDF creator (PDF-XChange). The colours in Xara were nominated in CMYK values that I had selected from a CMYK paper colour chart.

I sent the PDF off to the printer and the results were a perfect match to the CMYK colour chart!

Given the PDF I had printed and the one produced by "PDF Export" look totally different on screen and when I printed them locally (albeit in RGB I guess) I have a hard time believing they would have resulted in the same output from the professional printer. That is...I cannot see that I would have ended up with true CMYK prints had I used PDF Export

Patrick