Are kids better off being home schooled?
Printable View
Are kids better off being home schooled?
By the way - here is what Snoops.com had to say about the letter: http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/hilliker.asp
Even if the letter is a fake -- it is true that teachers often want students' blind obedience regardless of whether they are right or wrong.
:eek: This is a sick school...
I don't know about home schooling, but I would keep my kinds away from this, so called "school". :mad:
Where exactly can I find the evidence for this? I wouldn't say this was my experience and think it's way off base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Macintosh
Okay Paul -- Perhaps saying "often" was off-base. I should have said "sometimes".
Of course not all teachers are bad - but I think most people can tell stories of bad teachers from their own first-hand experience. Were you one of the lucky ones who only had great teachers?
Regards, Ross
got to say I was a little bemused Ross, about where you were coming from, as the original post is so obviously firmly in the 'urban myth' category.....:)
any teacher who wrote a letter like that would not last 5mins in a state school, or any worth going to, even in 1994 - at least, not in the UK ;)
I think all teachers want obedience and respect and most would accept that they can be wrong and would be glad to have the debate and be corrected.
I think what they wouldn't want is a slanging match with a pupil during a class, even if the pupil had a valid point. As is often the case, it's not so much what you say, but how you say it.
I had some poor teachers and some really great ones.
I did Pure and Applied mathematics with one teacher and he was great. We had a tiny class of six pupils. If one of us started daydreaming he would gradually start talking nonsense then eventually ask some nonsense question of the daydreamer. He was great.
Our school had a Religious Education teacher who couldn't control their classes and inevitably there was always a lot of noise and shouting and eventually another teacher would restore order. You can say how terrible it is to have a bad teacher, but I suspect having to come in day after day and face the problems that that guy faced must have been truly awful.
Well then your rejects can move to Norh America and find work in our school systems!
yes Paul - its all in the way its put - its just so unprofessional is it not
the emphasis and thrust of the letter is completely wrong, both in the direction from which it approaches the matter, and in the way the situation is described
I did look at the link, but I don't buy it
written by a pupil I'd believe :D
I think you insulted a large number of people with that remark!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Macintosh
I can't believe it's as bad as you suggest Ross.
Paul - I don't know what the school system is like in the UK. Perhaps it is perfect. I'd suggest that most people in North America don't think ours are perfect. Sure we have some excellent teachers and some well-run schools but we also have our problems. Throughout most of North America, I think it's accurate to say, that once a teacher is in our publicly funded school system their continuing employment does not depend on performance. Their pay scale is based on education and seniority and not performance. I'm sure their are exceptions but for the most part that is the way it works. Most schools have their share of ineffective teachers and it is well known in the schools themselves as well as by parents & students. How bad is it? Well the vast majority of us accept it as a reality and continue to send our kids to publicly-funded schools. The wealthy have what we call private schools where teaching quality is expected. Middle-class families generally cannot afford to send their kids to such schools. So our kids go to regular schools & we hope for the best. A growing number of families are choosing home-schooling as an alternative. Typically the curriculum is still determined by government and certain standards are expected. The parents of home-schooled kids still have to support the regular school system through taxation.
I respect the difficult job that teachers have and I believe most take their responsibilities seriously. It's a bit of a crap shoot whether your kid will get a good teacher or a not so effective one. If they get a bad one this year you hope next year will be better. Overall I think my kids are getting a reasonable education but their are many parents who would disagree and more who are apathetic. Parents get involved in local schools through 'Parent Teacher Associations' in the USA and 'Home & School Associations' here in Canada. The other stakeholders in the system are the powerful Teacher's Unions, local (elected) School Boards, and State/Provincial governments who provide the tax-generated funding and try to maintain standards.
Regards, Ross
Ross,
The UK system is far from perfect. Tha basic system in the UK is similar to what you describe in North America. The quality of schools is assessed by an inspection authority and schools graded. Schools in the inner cities probably fare the worst with a more challenging intake from tough housing estates - this problem is universal.
I know that regulation of teacher quality is far more stringent now than it used to be when I was in school, but there will always be bad teachers and there will always be great teachers and there will always be the luck of the draw.
Fortunately we were able to get our kids into the best school in the area (not a private school) and it has an excellent reputation, but according to my kids it has some questionable teachers. I know that recruitment for the school in some subject areas has been a major problem.
I'm not suggesting our school system is superior, I was defending your school system from being improved by taking our rejects!
funny!Quote:
Originally Posted by pauland
This would have been a great joke letter to take home ifQuote:
Originally Posted by Ross Macintosh
the letter would have had the date april 1st instead of the 20th.
Ross I know you have this interest in matters educational [talent-skill-motivation etc]
Some parts of the UK educational system are dreadful - where I live at present is a case in point, but this is more the fault of the local authority [that runs it] rather than the teachers IMO
Teachers are human like the rest of us, and if you run a system a certain way, you will end up with a certain kind of person - it is no longer the vocational career it once was. Again IMO
A debate about such matters might be interesting, but the letter is a joke
For us, underlying much of the problems with our system seems to be the Teacher Union that appears to stymie any meaningful evaluations of individual teacher performance. I'm sure they are well aware of who are underperforming but the approach they advocate is increasing numbers of "in-service" professional development days where the kids stay home, the teachers do some workshops and then bugger off in the afternoon. As a parent it is noticable how many of these in-service days fall on days that give the teachers 'long weekends'. This is Easter weekend -- we get Friday & Monday as holidays. My son's school had an in-service day Thursday. It seems the teachers really like long weekends. All the inservice days are negotiated with government. It seems an alternative to paying higher salaries is to give them more days where they don't need to teach. I do understand these in-service days are potentually useful but yours truly, and I'd suggest most parents/taxpayers in my country, feel they are abused. I just checked: here in PEI in the current school year there are 195 school days per year but only 185 are considered 'teaching days'. Add to this the number of 'snow days' (several) we get and our kids are home a lot!
All the stakeholders in our local school system do work hard to try to improve the system -- and the Teachers Union plays a big part in those efforts. They however want to keep teacher evaluations and consequences like firing off the table. It is understandable but most parents don't like it.
Regards, Ross
My wife is actually a primary school teacher and she's on the school Easter break.
Normally she's at school at 8AM, often not leaving until 6PM and then often marking books and preparing lessons in the evenings and weekends. She puts in huge hours.
On the 'snow day' front in the last cold weather snap, one of the parents threatened to sue the school because one of the kids fell over on snow/ice on the way in, so it's safer for the school to close it's doors.
My wife is frequently sworn at by children and sometimes parents and unlike the teachers of my day is treading on eggshells very often.
My wife is often disappointed by in-service days because they frequently involve boring presentations by people who should be able to present a whole lot better.
She also does an after-school club once a week and one evening a week is involved with Boys Brigade.
Ross, when you talk about long-weekends and buggering off in the afternoon, we really don't know what you're talking about.
Paul
teacher[s] in my family too - maybe that's why we responded to this?
they can't wait for retirement [delayed now of course :(]
paperwork and lack of resources, together with ever increasing demands to get kids through exams and tests rather than into life, are the killers.... its not longer a job of choice...
Well maybe they should consider becoming architects like me. More education required, less pay, longer hours, high stress, relatively little vacation time, no pension, no health plans, etc. etc. Teachers may not have the greatest jobs but they shouldn't complain too loudly. Not much sympathy. It will only make them feel worse.
It might not sound like it but I do respect the work of teachers.
Regards, Ross
The common perception of Architects is of rather grand people living in huge self-designed houses full of designer furniture with Porsches and Mercedes littering the drive and getting in the way of the stable entrance. Architects typically turn up in the afternoon, interfere with well meaning builders and knock up a few plans with CAD software that does their work for them and they generate a fat bill at the end. You've gone wrong somewhere Ross!
I guess that's the problem with stereotypes and generalisations..
Seriously though, I guess the current downturn must have hit you and the profession particularly badly Ross.
they are not complaining Ross - as no one should who is in control of their own destiny ;) ... just ready to move on
in a couple of decades the job has changed out of all recognition....[so I am told]
stereotypes and generalisations yep... lots o' bricks in that Wall....
Certainly there are some financially successful architects out there but they typically are the owners of firms. They tend to be making their money as employers while their hard-working employees aren't living the lifestyle you describe. Architecture is one of the lowest paid professions -- often significantly lower than engineers, lawyers, accountants, & doctors. Given the responsibilities -- managing projects with multi-million dollar budgets -- I think most people would be surprised how little we earn. The tradespeople who build the project - plumbers, electricians and the like - typically all earn more than the architect who designs the building and administer the construction contract.
I work in a small city of only 32,000 people and have a modest middle class lifestyle. I do live in a self-designed home but have no designer furniture. :D
Well, the problem is cyclical isn't it. Where do bad teachers come from? Bad teachers were once kids in the very same schools with just as bad teachers. How do we break this chain?
I don't think there's any evidence to show such a relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by DSFlyman
Bad teachers come from the same place that bad plumbers , bad policemen, bad architects and bad X comes from - society at large.
Paul
This is kind of a heavy thread so I will try to break the tension with a bit with of a joke.
........Background, about 10 to 15 years ago there was a big teachers strike in the province of Ontario and at the same time a nurses strike in Quebec. The quebec goverenment solved their problem quite easily, nurses are an essential service so for every day they were off work they were fined a weeks wage. Nice huh?
Anyway, there was a great political cartoon in one of the papers and it went like this.........What will $12,000,000 dollars a year buy you (remember, this is 10 year old money also)....around 50 college educated, full time dedicated teachers or one professional hockey player.
I could carry on further and give my views on the subject but I would rather just post this joke and back of quietly and quickly..........good luck with all your view points........frank
And society at large is also the place where good teachers, plumbers , policemen, architects and X comes from. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by pauland
Developing the will to enforce higher standards for teachers et al is the problem. Today's prevailing attitude seems to be to 'let the other guy do it, I'm too busy'; so nothing changes. Getting involved is what's needed.
Frank - You must remember the numbers incorrectly -- that would be $240,000 per teacher which likely isn't correct or we'd all be moving to Quebec to be teachers. ;)
Don't worry about participating in a thread like this. It isn't religion or politics so it is safe! We're all friends.
Regards, Ross
get the parents back on the job - ban both working at the same time - haul them into court when their kids misbehave - bring back extended families so kids are not isolated on large estates - so they grow up [before school] with half a dozen adult role models and learn there is more than one way of being right..... :D:D
ok tongue in cheek up to a point - but yes get involved - at the right level ;)
Yes, Ross is right, but without having the cartoon on hand I didn't want to exagerate and I did not want to do the math, but back then I believe teachers and nurses were making in the 30,000 to 40,000$ range........but without being precise, the model still stands. And it is not just a Canadian thing, actually we are kind of following the Americans but are way behind, it also applies to Europe; probably is world wide. If they entertain us on t.v. or the big screen, they should be paid millions if not billions; if they teach or protect us they deserve next to nothing. I read a few years ago that somebody earning a million dollars a year is not considered rich anymore, but simply upper middle class, so I guess most teachers as with almost the rest of us are just simply the "Poor" at this stage of the game. Anybody out there consider themselfs upper middle class??????????, ..:D...........frank
some local background info :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7996920.stm
Depends on the kids, depends on their school, depends on the parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Macintosh