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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pauland
Wasn't the video in the first post enough?
No. Do you do architectural renderings?
What is it you, pauland, do on a daily basis that would benefit? How much would you use it per drawing?
I cannot answer for you. I have answered for me. But again, for me, I don't know what/when I would use such a feature for what I do or have done since 1990. I have sliced and diced image elements in CD over those years on occasion and since just earlier this year, XDP.
It is not that I haven't used an eraser in PS or PL. I have and will continue to do so in an bitmap/image program. But I use a vector application such as XDP as a composition application for the image bits of an overall piece. I don't do image manipulation inside XDP. That is not to say that on occasion I have taken a vector element or two into PS or PL and added washes of color, etc., I have done this. But very infrequently.
Take care, Mike
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Everybody is doing differrent things. A lot of people using Xara don't produce artwork that's made "in the moment", and at the moment they can't. Some people on TG do work on cartoons and fills can be tedious using Xara -an eraser could change that workflow hugely. The video shows how having an eraser (and ideally a proper brush tool) could free Xara from requiring calculated image making and let people use the software freely and open it up to a less constrained and flowing form of expression. Quite a few people do sketches before the transfer the artwork to Xara and I bet the don't do it by joining the vertices, as it were.
It's not an essential for everyone, but I suspect it would be a must-have if it ever arrived. Of course many people interested in producing free flowing artwork without worrying about points, may just seek alternative ways to produce their art.
So it might not be for me or you, but that's true of a lot of xara features these days.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
I've given up on this. After literally begging for one for years,...I now basically use other vector apps with eraser tools; there are plenty. I was told over and over by folks here that an eraser tool is not needed or that there are workarounds. Blah blah blah......
I use one everyday...and I love it. To each their own.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
This is exactly why Xara needs an eraser tool, how many potential loyal users have gone to other software because of the lack of this tool? I can think of many potential uses for this.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
There again, a lot of loyal users have struggled on without ;)) Seriously can't imagine any loyal Xaran jumping ship because of it ... hardly disables the program(s) does it. I'd prefer to see the devs spend time and Xara's money come up with something that most of us can find useful, not 10% ;)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
note I said potential loyal users. We have just heard from one. There are surely many more who have chosen not to use xara because of it's lack of tools that other programs have had for years.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
We've probably lost lots of folk cos Xara is not a raster application and cos it doesn't work like other programs. I could respond with "Look how many folk have fallen for Xara cos it's not a raster application and because it works better than other programs." Swings and roundabouts. If erasers or whatever get included it's because Xara have a space for it and the idea has been around for a while ... at the expense of another idea that will then also be bemoaned as "essential".
I've got an idea ... let's give those devs the benefit of the doubt eh? They've done us proud so far ... or do you think they've been slacking? Such a vital tool and it's not in the toolbox? What can they be doing with their time? :D
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
I'm not calling anyone Slackers :) I just think that this is a tool that has been asked for and including it would be a good thing:) It's getting to be that time that we are all thinking about what might be in the next release and I think that putting our wishes out there is a good thing.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
There's a bit of an odd culture on TG where people like to mock those who make suggestions about enhancing the Xara toolset and say why they think it's important. Not everyone can see the need for an eraser - I understand that - but I don't see the need to mock those that do.
If, after seeing the video on the first post, the point of an eraser is lost on you, then why try and justify the lack of an eraser?
We all know Xara works just fine, but it's not a program that has no room for improvement.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
I've already saved the developers endless hours of work by drawing the icons for the eraser - Post #43. ;))
So, all they need to do, is to do the simple background stuff. ;)
And I don't think it's anything to do with whether you would use it or not, or whether it would be useful?
Some will use it and some will not.
Here's my offer.
Do away with the 'Pen Tool'. I never use it.
And give me the 'Erase Tool' instead.
Who knows whether I may use it or not?
But, there will be many who might use it and some who might learn to love it!
So, for me, there already are unnecessary tools in Xara. But, not for others.
I dare say we would have a revolt if the 'Pen Tool' was done away with?!
How much have I missed an Eraser?
Well, I simply click on the object and move the nodes or the control points to achieve what I want.
But... I'm not a professional needing to produce complex works and other stuff where the Erase Tool might be extremely useful.
I would prefer to win over users, rather than ask them to simply love it or lump it.
Only my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Xara has a pressure sensitive brush - if you do lineart in the traditional brushwork way then the equivalent in a digital sense is to use pressure as you draw to get the line right first time [as you would with sable] and if its not quite right to either add another stroke to 'build it up' or add another stroke to remove part of it [ie erasing: ideally by just flipping the tablet pen to change mode] - you build up a rhythm it is very important to keep the momentum going - and notice this is all done by stroking as it would be with a traditional brush/eraser
There have been many suggestions to mimic an eraser in xara, but all that I have seen including a couple here: http://www.xara-users.info/board/vie...589f52f#p23978 seem to miss this point because they rely on switching to boolean which, as was said in another context a day or so ago, is like driving down the motorway [freeway] and suddenly hitiing a speed bump - it breaks rhythm. Either that or you simply leave the 'masking' strokes in - but that only works at all if you can define a mask colour relative to a background, and in any case it is adding a whole load of spurious objects in the drawing which you then have to tidy up afterwards and that can get really really complicated [edit and you still have to change colour - which breaks rhythm]
having said all that xara's pressure sensitive brush is a one-trick pony - the live drag makes it now useable, but unless it gets at least as configurable as the illustrator brush set, its hard to see it being used by true brush artists - I was very pleased to see it appear, but I have a nasty feeling that it's as far as it is going to go; if push comes to shove enhancing the brush would currently be a higher priority for me than an eraser, which would only be used occasionally in this context by good brush artists
so Angelize your other suggestion about stroke shapes would get priority vote from me [and I've said plenty about that in the past as well], but both would be nice of course :)
as a final point have a look here: http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...766#post426766 - inking that took me around 30 mins in SAI [raster app] total number of erases around 10 - and excellent practice in using the tool[s] BTW
can anyone tell me how long it would take with the xara shape tool and 'eraser' functions? ;)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
It is not whether or not a user will actually use an eraser or whether or not it would be useful. It is obvious that every existing feature of the program will need to be rewritten to support an eraser. That would require a great deal of recoding over a great deal of time. It is possible that such code is being incorporated in the background and may be revealed when all is working. It is also possible that an eraser tool is still in Xara's own wish list but well below features they see will be more beneficial.
I find it amusing that people that continue to resurrect this subject become defensive when others exercise their right to post their views that an eraser is not needed. Both sides are jousting at windmills completely in the dark about what may or may not be taking place at Xara.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
It is obvious that every existing feature of the program will need to be rewritten to support an eraser
it is ? :think:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
I find it amusing that ......
ah well, we all find amusement where we can Bill - I think it amusing [and sometimes slightly sad] that so many seem to think that only ever using one program is a good thing, if not a holy grail, and that it's a given vector is better than raster... but there you go ;)
:)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
...It is possible that such code is being incorporated in the background and may be revealed when all is working.
Aha!
Ladies and Gents. Bill has insider knowledge. ;))
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
@Pauland - It's not that I think the eraser is pointless, or anybody's suggestion for that matter, but say it once not again and again and again. If Xara are going to implement it they will, if they're not they wont. Banging on about it might well even tip the balance against the idea. The devs wont forget a good, workable idea - they probably had it first.
Have I tried to justify the lack of an eraser? Some have I know. I didn't mean to do that if I have done.
The Dear Xara board [and its extension threads e.g. this one] should be for [potentially] new ideas, that is the gist of my interventions :-D
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Nodeist, this is the Xara Graphics Chat forum. We can bang on about the eraser tool to our hearts content. If it's a problem, I'd just stop reading this thread, then you'll never get to see it.
There are bright developers at Xara. Clearly they have limits on what they can do. They may or not include an eraser, but I do think they are quided by user demand and it's perfectly reasonable to discuss the usefulness of the tool.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: The controversial eraser tool
Yeah ... just altered my post to reflect that. Deliberately confusing me by posting the same thing all over the place! ;)) Thank you for pointing that out though :)Attachment 86773
If the masses who buy Xara products think the same as the very small amount of people who regularly post on here then they might take notice, yes. If it's possible/feasible to implement without detriment to the program
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
The masses that buy product, buy on the basis of what they see and they can see plenty of drawing products, vector and bitmap with erasers.
Xara is in tricky situation. The eraser tool comes into it's own with a tablet and really I doubt that in a few years any laptop will not have a touch screen and tablets will be widespread. Jiggling nodes will seem less natural and inconvenient for some operations. As a tablet user, I have come to dislike scrollbars and small fiddly controls - even on my laptop.
The rise of tablets and touch screens is going to be an issue for Xara. Their product can look old very fast.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
good points
it can be looked on as a tablet [screen] versus mouse issue
in anycase I think Xara will give priority to the HTML generation - its the only currently viable commercial approach that I can see making sense
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pauland
... The rise of tablets and touch screens is going to be an issue for Xara...
True for Adobe as well who, from what I've seen, rely heavily on keyboard shortcuts. There will have to be a new generation.
On a lighter note, we spent millions of years developing our opposable thumbs and realising a stick is better than a finger in the sand and now we're reverting to prodding! If this goes on we wont make interstellar travel but we might just make it back to the Ocean in time :D
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
I rather think the idea is to use a pen and tablet touch buttons / touch screen configurable for shortcuts - and do away with the poor old mouse
added advantage you can use touch buttons/screen whilst still holding the pen [difficult with a mouse] - so unless you need modifier keys you can do it all one handed....
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Just download DrawPlus starter edition for FREE - I'm pretty sure* it has an eraser. It also has connectors, a warp mesh tool that can make some very difficult blends which can't easily be replicated in Xtreme, a knife tool that works far more intuitively than adding and subtracting parts, and probably some other things I'm missing that we've asked for from Xara for a LONG TIME. (Oh yeah, a better brush tool according to some.) I probably won't be upgrading Xtreme again - it is falling behind, and missing the tools I want. Sad. I love Xtreme.
(* - I upgraded to the full X4 (not X5), and it has this stuff, and I remember these being in my original starter edition download.)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
I'm only replying to this thread as a user - not an expert (as you all know from helping me) but as an end user. I bought Xara because of the cost - it was cost effective for me - I couldn't afford the more expensive apps like Illustrator, or I would have bought it instead. The point is that Xara IS loosing customers (who can afford the higher priced apps) because of the lack of these tools. As a user I DON'T WANT TO LEARN A COMPLICATED WORK AROUND! Period. I use Xara daily and YES, an eraser WOULD BE NICE!!! You can call me lazy or inexperienced, but the bottom line is I am a typical end-user that bought Xara because of its affordability. Xara Programmers and Project Managers take note - it's all about the bottom line and the number of copies of Xara that can be sold to potential customers. If you adamantly refuse to add in an eraser because of a strict sense of "We aren't a bitmap program" then you do yourselves and your customers a disservice. Just my 2-cents worth. I REALLY would like to see an eraser tool!!!
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
it is ? :think:
Steve I do think it should be obvious to anyone. If an existing feature has no code to respond to an eraser it would never change it's behaviour meaning nothing would erase, screen refresh would simply redraw the original.
An object (any object) would need to have code to tell it how to respond when an eraser is applied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
ah well, we all find amusement where we can Bill - I think it amusing [and sometimes slightly sad] that so many seem to think that only ever using one program is a good thing, if not a holy grail, and that it's a given vector is better than raster... but there you go ;)
:)
Steve I have many graphics applications. I even use them when needed. ;)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Post #102 and #103 say plenty for me.
Content aware erase was mentioned. I've used it. I could have used PhotoShop to do what I wanted but I used Xara to do it.
The feature was in Xara and that was my tool of choice.
It's not how often, it's when.
Then when the 'when' arrives, what are you going to use?
So, since the introduction of Content aware erase, I've not really had a reason to open PhotoShop.
I'm not speaking for the professionals here. They will probably have a different view!
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
HI Bill
ok must dash - but before I go it I'll just say that I was under the impression that somewhere in memory is held the current state of the drawing at any given time and what is required is a new tool to integrate with that just like any other
now I see complications with live effects and mold and any other 'overlay' entities, but editing them now isn't straight forward
editing lines and shapes with a new tool does not strike me as complicated in the sense, but then no pro coder me :o
[and the amuse bit was not directed at you Bill I know you have dozens of the darn things.., just taking the idea for a sideways stroll..:)]
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Hi Steve,
The memory area that holds the current state of the drawing is used to display on screen. To actually update that you will need to actually interact with an object or objects. A line, shape, group, etc. are objects which exist as code which contains the data and the executable instructions that define how the object can by modified. An executable instruction must exist for each tool that can create or change any property of an object.
To over simplify things, any object that can be created within a Xara app would need to have code added to it's creation method to build executable code segment that would recognise an eraser and what can and cannot be done to the object. The object would then update it's representation in screen memory which displays the current state.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Okay, this thread tells me that Xara Photo & Graphic Designer 7 has no NORMAL eraser tool? Can I have a refund? Sheesh. I'm no pro at this kind of stuff but I think EVERY photo editing or graphic designing stuff has to HAVE an eraser tool. T___T So disappointed. I mean, it's just one tool. Why can't they put it? Even if they're saying that this is a vector software, they must have at least one of these basic tools. :(
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
you bought it without taking advantage of the 30day free trial? :eek:
if it's that important a tool to you you would have noticed straight away when trying it out - right?
everyone should try it out first.. only common sense really ;)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Hi Bill
thanks for the info.. nothing is ever simple in this life is it [except some users maybe.... ]
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sarahdenise03
Okay, this thread tells me that Xara Photo & Graphic Designer 7 has no NORMAL eraser tool? Can I have a refund? Sheesh. I'm no pro at this kind of stuff but I think EVERY photo editing or graphic designing stuff has to HAVE an eraser tool. T___T So disappointed. I mean, it's just one tool. Why can't they put it? Even if they're saying that this is a vector software, they must have at least one of these basic tools. :(
Take this from a complete amateur.
I use Designer Pro 7 (Photo & Graphic Designer is similar) and it is THE BEST drawing package I know of.
You do not need a refund - You just need to use it.
There is nothing you cannot do, without the need for an Eraser.
To many, an Eraser would be useful, but it has not stopped me from drawing.
So, until Xara introduce the Eraser Tool, just start using it and there are hundreds of Xperts on this forum who will help you to achieve what ever you want.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
you bought it without taking advantage of the 30day free trial? :eek:
if it's that important a tool to you you would have noticed straight away when trying it out - right?
everyone should try it out first.. only common sense really ;)
Yeah, I see your point. But the thing is, it's with another software that I bought and you can only buy it in a package with this Xara thing.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Well, don't wimp out, give the software a proper go. Do you seriously think all the users on TG would be here if it wasn't very capable.
The eraser would be nice to have. It's not a must-have.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Just tried the Drawplus Starter Edition (free) and although the tools (including eraser) are on the toolbar, they're not usable unless you upgrade to the full product - now 59.95.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
I have to admit, I bought Xara Xtreme v5. I liked it because, 1) affordable, 2) easy to use, 3) AFFORDABLE! I also will admit - I absolutely LOVE this group of people on these boards, they are so very helpful! I am NOT a pro, but I AM learning and I DO use Xara every day. It REALLY, TRULY, would be nice to have an eraser for some things - it is simply a PITA to have to go clip a single little left-over line when doing a "combine Shapes - Slice" For example, I was working through Egg Bramhill's tutorial on creating a glass and ended up with one tiny little line that I needed to "erase." It took a few steps to draw a rectangle over the top and clip it out when a simple eraser would have been much more simple. THOSE are the times when an eraser would be handy to have. Yes, I've survived and used Xara without it, but honestly - IT WOULD BE NICE! Again, just my 2-cents as an end-user - not as a "Pro."
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sarahdenise03
Yeah, I see your point. But the thing is, it's with another software that I bought and you can only buy it in a package with this Xara thing.
so in a way it's a bonus.... :)
if you want to draw in a freehand brush style then frankly xara is not the program - if you don't , once you learn the program then as others have said you likely wont miss the eraser..
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
glenngosack
Just tried the Drawplus Starter Edition (free) and although the tools (including eraser) are on the toolbar, they're not usable unless you upgrade to the full product - now 59.95.
if you gave serif your email hang on in there.. you'll get lots and lots of offers and sooner or later drawplus will feature, usually just before the new version comes out if past experience is anything to go by....
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
If people are using Photo & Graphic Designer to edit their photos the Magic Eraser is a "Real" eraser. You can remove things in the photo that you do not want to be there.
All the discussion within this thread is regarding a Vector Eraser, a horse of a different colour as it were. A photo, raster, bitmap eraser is a much easier task to accomplish.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: The controversial eraser tool
I've been using Xara in its various guises for 12 years or so and since I've never had the luxury of an eraser I have what I consider to be very effective and efficient ways to erase:
Attachment 86843
It doesn't really bother me that there isn't an eraser even though, if they were now to include this function, I'm sure I would use it. :thx
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pauland
Well, don't wimp out, give the software a proper go. Do you seriously think all the users on TG would be here if it wasn't very capable.
The eraser would be nice to have. It's not a must-have.
Again,....everyone is different and yes,...for me, an eraser is a MUST-HAVE.