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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Richinri, you make interesting points but I cringe when I read your posts. A little less ego and a lot more humility will help you no end.
We've heard what you have to say. You may be right, but this is a community and there are other voices to hear. You are quite mistaken if you think anyone at Xara is going to assist you, particularly with posts that constantly snipe at their developers.
Don't make the same mistake that other talented people have made and find yourself an outsider when there's so much going on here.
Paul (Who is not a moderator, but has seen this cycle before).
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
V12CATMAN - ok, but where is the link to the site ;) [or did I miss it?] - without that it is all just words and opinion
RICHINI - you too have not provided any proof, and frankly sound like a vested interest defending its pitch
I am willing to be convinced either way as I do not come with any preconceptions here, but lets have some actual case work and stats please..
not diatribe :rolleyes:
For those who need to "see to believe"
[URL removed as requested]
Go to Google and type in the following:
*IBM*4690*File*Integrity*Monitoring (7th hit on 1st page)
*4690*File*Integrity*Monitoring (towards the bottom)
*4690*PCI*DSS (6th hit one 1st Page)
Try Yahoo:
*4690*PCI*DSS - (5th and 6th hit)
Change the *s to spaces
Then look at the home page and compare the wording that Google shows under each hit with the text content on the home page. Then look at the page source and check the title and description and keywords. While you're there do a search for h1 (hint -you won't find it).
Seeing is truly believing :p
PS I was quite pleasantly surprised myself that some elementary changes could yield such good results.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Thank you V12CatMan, your experience is highly appreciated.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
@Paul: There are always two sides necessary, in order to let a discussion come to no end.
@John (covoxer):
Quote:
Originally Posted by
covoxer
Fact 4. The <h1> element is not user visible. It is easy to make text within it look like a paragraph text or even be completely invisible. If SE would rely on it, it would provide another way to fool the SE just the way description metatag did.
The blue colored part of this paragraph is a fact, the violet colored part is your assumption, the interpretation from your side. But whether a search engine is able to recognize fools or not is more the headache of the Google engineers. Additionally, besides the simple recommendation from Google to use headers, the second point with using such tags like <h1> - <h6> is, that they are also necessary for well structured, semantically meaningful HTML (we've discussed this before). Using good clean markup (including headers) is just best practices.
If you're planning to include a styles concept within Xara Xtreme and/or Xara Web Designer, you should do it with support of semantically meaningful HTML tags and the necessary CSS. For now I see no reasons except your and Charles dissenting opinions, why one should follow anti-patterns instead.
Simon Collison was saying it a little bit more jovially: "You can’t read a woman’s mind, but good markup is transparent. Like great lovers, CSS and well-structured code are bound by fate, and are destined to live happily ever after." [1]
Some concrete tips for you:
- Use predefined styles called "Header 1" to "Header 6" like in text editors and match them to <h1> - <h6> tags during the export.
- Outsource the CSS for such headers to an external stylesheet.
- Furthermore let users define additional styles on their own without matching them to <h1> - <h6> tags during the export (if they really need more than 6 headers)
- and you're finished.
Give it a chance, instead of fighting against Web Standards.
Remi
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
V12CatMan
For those who need to "see to believe"
I don't believe a lot of what I see :p
But I do like an argument that is supported, thanks :)
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
remi
Give it a chance, instead of fighting against Web Standards.
It's not a fight against standards, it's management of development resources. Any feature that is useful and is not present is a potential feature to implement. But there are a lot of them, and development resources are limited. So the question here is not do it or not, but what to do first. That's all.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
covoxer
It's not a fight against standards, it's management of development resources. Any feature that is useful and is not present is a potential feature to implement. But there are a lot of them, and development resources are limited. So the question here is not do it or not, but what to do first. That's all.
Understood John. That's the world I live in every day. I work with our developers to determine what we need to do to our products:
1. To benefit existing customers.
2. To entice new customers to buy our products (because competitors are doing things also).
3. To "optimize" market acceptance/perception - Man is this one that gets our developers going:eek: People take a quick look at a product, see/read/imagine a perceived weakness or omission (maybe their buddy's a CSS programmer), skip over all the great features & then ultimately make negative posts on website reviews as to why they purchased another product and Google caches it forever!:(
We try to prioritize (as I'm sure you do) based on user benefit and scope of effort (1&2) - we have to deal with the $ realities of life just like you do. Only when that is done do we take account of 3. If making the change can create a marketing edge (distance us from a competitor) and also ranks high for customers then it will jump to the top of the list. Selectively it can really position a Company in the area of thought leadership and goodwill - something Xara has that many Companies are appalling at. Xara is developing functionality not bloatware which is absolutely terrific.
I suspect this h1-hx fits into 3. It looks to me like a great opportunity to bridge the gap between designers and coders and has real usability. The additional benefit is that it also dispels another potential notion that WD is for picture websites and "Susie homemaker" as its called in the US. Of course WC3 compliance is already a huge silver bullet you have on this one.Sometimes I choke on the "perception is reality" argument.
Anyway fwiw - fantastic job, both on the development and forum contribution side. Keep it up.:)
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
I don't believe a lot of what I see :p
But I do like an argument that is supported, thanks :)
No problem:mad:. It should have been in the original post but I got all tangled up when I hit the word limit:D
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
If there is enough interest I am willing to conduct an experiment. Currently two websites I am responsible for are #1 and #2 on Google for their brand name "Tower Forge" (out of 2.5 million other pages). Both use a H1 tag containing that key phrase. If I change the #1 site to use paragraph tags then that may (possibly by changing positions) shed some light on the subject.
Are there any experts here that could give me an idea as to how long it will take to have an effect (if any) and more importantly how long to recover as this is a commercial site that provides my main income.
Drwyd
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
remi
@Paul: There are always two sides necessary, in order to let a discussion come to no end.
Actually Remi, I'm in favour of supporting h1 tags. I don't see the problem in supporting them and really it's not so much supporting h1, but supporting styles.
The thing I really hate is someone insisting they have some superior view that the rest of us mortals and Xara developers should accept as absolute fact.
If I were thinking of using h1 tags because of serious concerns, I would do so by editing the html/css by hand and doing it myself. Bit fiddly perhaps.
Probably 90% or more XWD users couldn't care less anyway because they use word of mouth not just search engines.
For a lot of people, using h1 tags isn't going to affect their search ratings much if they operate some everyday business with thousands of competitors.
I'm all for debate, but not keen on reliving groundhog day on the forums.
Paul
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drwyd
If there is enough interest I am willing to conduct an experiment. Currently two websites I am responsible for are #1 and #2 on Google for their brand name "Tower Forge" (out of 2.5 million other pages). Both use a H1 tag containing that key phrase. If I change the #1 site to use paragraph tags then that may (possibly by changing positions) shed some light on the subject.
Are there any experts here that could give me an idea as to how long it will take to have an effect (if any) and more importantly how long to recover as this is a commercial site that provides my main income.
Drwyd
Nice offer - but I don't think that would be meaningful. The words "Tower Forge" are in the Title and also feature in numerous other places on the pages including p tags - probably the precise reason they get #1 and #2 on the hit list - # of repetitions. I would not attribute that in any way to the existence of h1 tags. Also I suspect "Tower Forge" is not a highly searched general term (unlike say "wysiwyg web development") - after all the 6th item down in the Google UK page is Pigeon Forge TN - not exactly a good appropriate hit i.e. the competition is not great for "Tower Forge". When you have something that unique that people don't generally search for, you can be pretty confident of hits.
In fact my exercise has already determined/proven that h1 tags are unnecessary as the sole source of SE hits (I do not have any).
As an aside - notice the importance of the meta tag description as each hit is to a separate page and uses the meta tag description to entice people to select the link.
Unfortunately this is not algebra and you can only make sure that your page content is tailored to as many possible search terms in as many ways as possible - but clearly h1 etc. is not one to get overly excited about if the terms are adequately referenced and highlighted elsewhere.
I think the prime focus of the discussion now is their value from a wysiwyg development perspective.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
richinri
I will be banned for wanting to assist more seasoned developers better use XWD and expand it's use in the marketplace? I will be banned for saying to people, "this feature isn't available now but may be in the future" instead of NO?
Every executive in Xara will get my posts in their hands within days of my banning. We will see if they think what I am doing is wrong.
Richinri it is not what you have to say but how you say it and how often. You make your posts about <h> tags in almost every thread.
Your methodology of posting is the issue rather than what you are saying. Your actions work against you. You come off as being a cocky young fighter that wants a confrontation at every turn.
To give you a cooling off period I will impose a 5 day suspension of your membership beginning immediately.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
@V12CatMan
I agree that keywords in the title tag are probably the strongest factor and I appreciate your input as it adds more data but that does not change the focus of the experiment. I saw here an opportunity given by 2 websites with very similar SEO targets, both using H1 tags, that could be used to test a theory. If the only thing changed is the switch from heading tags to paragraph tags and the position drops 3 pages then that would be pretty compelling. It may be that the weight given by Google to heading tags is so slight that nothing will happen. Either way we will have learnt something.
BTW:-
“Results 1 - 10 of about 126,000 for IBM 4690”
"Results 1 - 10 of about 338,000 for wysiwyg web development "
“Results 1 - 10 of about 359,000 for xara web designer”
“Results 1 - 10 of about 2,560,000 for tower forge” ;)
Drwyd
P.S. I have made the change. :eek: Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drwyd
@V12CatMan
I agree that keywords in the title tag are probably the strongest factor and I appreciate your input as it adds more data but that does not change the focus of the experiment. I saw here an opportunity given by 2 websites with very similar SEO targets, both using H1 tags, that could be used to test a theory. If the only thing changed is the switch from heading tags to paragraph tags and the position drops 3 pages then that would be pretty compelling. It may be that the weight given by Google to heading tags is so slight that nothing will happen. Either way we will have learnt something.
BTW:-
“Results 1 - 10 of about 126,000 for IBM 4690”
"Results 1 - 10 of about 338,000 for wysiwyg web development "
“Results 1 - 10 of about 359,000 for xara web designer”
“Results 1 - 10 of about 2,560,000 for tower forge” ;)
Drwyd
P.S. I have made the change. :eek: Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
"I agree that keywords in the title tag are probably the strongest factor" No, No - the point is - They may be a factor and certainly provide verbiage to the search engine - once the engine decides to rank the page - as evidenced by what Google UK quotes on their hits for Tower Forge. Conclusions that they caused/played a major role in the "hit" are unfounded. In your case "Tower Forge" is all over the HTML source on the page. After about 6-7 hits nothing else even resembles Tower Forge. SEO logic is complicated for sure.
Good Luck with your experiment. As the existing pages could be cached for years I'll check back with you next time Haley's Comet passes by to read your "algebraic" conclusions.:rolleyes: While my exercise definitively proves that Google and Yahoo can definitely rank a page with no h1 tags, I don't understand your attempt to show that dropping an h1 tag will get the page to be unranked - maybe I'm missing something here. Anyway - Good Luck.
I really don't know what you're suggesting regarding the other stats.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
V12CatMan
For those who need to "see to believe"
[link removed as requested]
Go to Google and type in the following:
*IBM*4690*File*Integrity*Monitoring (7th hit on 1st page)
Change the *s to spaces
PS I was quite pleasantly surprised myself that some elementary changes could yield such good results.
Well, considering that "IBM 4690 File Integrity Monitoring" as a phrase only exists on TWO out of BILLIONS of web pages...
Also
Considering that the words- IBM 4690 File Integrity Monitoring -with no relation to what the product is about -- Google starts getting "desperate" to find things to "show the searcher" already on page 5, with an article about "organic contaminants in petroleum products", and then already goes completely "nuts" with a PDF on a Korean site about "truck capacity" on page 10...
It clearly shows that it's not a very competitive term.
Doing ANYTHING would have done the trick improving things for you.
(Continued later)
As a goofy experiment, I wrote a nonsense article on IBM 4690 File Integrity Monitoring ((took me about 15 minutes (in-between giggles)) that includes helping my 10-year-old bake a bunt cake.) After getting back home after our cake-party -- I activated the post (here: http://www.askdog.com/2009/03/29/ibm...g-good-or-not/) and pinged my blog services (1 minute)... and 40 minute later -- I was number number 1 on Google in Canada, and 15 in Google Australia (now number 1...), and 4 in Google Sweden (now number 1...) for your search term.
Sure, things will fluctuate (come and go until things settle)... but I wasn't even trying... I didn't even use any incoming links. Point being -- if even a humour advice site can slay a tech site in their "niche" without even trying -- it sure as (b)ell doesn’t involve H(n) tags or Xara WD coding.
As for this whole (thread) discussion -- I really don't care when it comes to purity of code. All I know is:
(1) Covoxer and the XWD crew know what they are doing. (It might not be to everyone's liking -- then again, what is?)
(2) This is a Xara WD forum not a half-baked SEO forum.
My very tired 2 cents Canadian.
Risto
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Just to clarify "nonsense article" = "a bit more than a Lorem Impsum". I know nothing, about the quality and purpose of the actual product. Please look at is a silly word-spew.
My nonsense has nothing to do with V12CatMan or the IBM product. It's just some ON-topic silliness.
Risto
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Just a small contribution - probably of little value.
A few days ago I mentioned I'd done a single page using XWD for a client (http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...=36835&page=10) - they are very pleased with it.
Despite this page not having any real links to it besides this one: http://www.collardmanson.co.uk/profi...er_profile.htm from the other thread, it's now been picked up by google!
I'm assuming a spider has done some walking. Now, the page isn't acheiving a wonderful #1 page rank unless you get specific enough, but that said, I was surprised.
Make of it what you will (or will not).
Paul
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
@all: Maybe you should study the Wikipedia Article about well known SEO contests, instead of trying to start a own SEO contest here at TG.
Remi
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
For my part it is an experiment, not a contest, in order to find a solution to the H1 debate for myself and others. :confused:
V12CatMan "While my exercise definitively proves that Google and Yahoo can definitely rank a page with no h1 tags"
Agreed, I am not disputing this.
"I don't understand your attempt to show that dropping an h1 tag will get the page to be unranked"
I am not trying to do that. I am trying to find out "IF" a H1 tag is a factor. All I am trying to "SHOW" is its actual value for ranking, if any, and settle this debate. It may prove to be a fruitless experiment but if you don't try you don't learn.
Drwyd
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
@Risto :D Excellent article.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Congratulations Risto! You just have fooled Googlebot!!! :D
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Risto
Just to clarify "nonsense article" = "a bit more than a Lorem Impsum". I know nothing, about the quality and purpose of the actual product. Please look at is a silly word-spew.
My nonsense has nothing to do with V12CatMan or the IBM product. It's just some ON-topic silliness.
Risto
My original post was in relation to a poster who had concerns about using WD with lack of H1 tag support for SEO. As such it seemed reasonable to show a poster who was considering not using WD that they are not a "mandatory requirement" for SEO as shown by your experiment also.
I learned a bad lesson I will never repeat by posting a link to a REAL business site and a REAL product. - Never post a live business site to a forum such as this and have someone post joke messages to another site and cause real-time search engine clutter.
I have disregarded your other comments regarding the meaning of the wording - as you're technically ignorant of the subject matter you felt uninformed by the SE description. Industry experts do not share your ignorance of the subject matter. I would appreciate you removing that joke site as soon as possible.
The product being linked to is not an IBM product.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
V12CatMan
- Never post a live business site to a forum such as this and have someone post joke messages to another site and cause real-time search engine clutter.
are you really saying Risto's joke has somehow affected your ratings - is this stuff that easy to flounce - your chasing the wind here arn't you?
edit: deleted line
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Moderators - Please delete my post #42. The contact form to the forum does not work, and there appears to be no way to send a private message.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Yes, Steve. Risto is the No. 1 if I search for "IBM 4690 File Integrity Monitoring" at Google (see here).
Remi
btw: His Wordpress blog has used a header tag (a <h2>) - look at the HTML code.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
V12CatMan
Moderators - Please delete my post #42. The contact form to the forum does not work, and there appears to be no way to send a private message.
Hi, I've deleted the link to your website. Is this ok for your?
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
wow
just imagine if that happened by accident .... ok statistically that might not be likely - but its not built on rock is it
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
remi
Hi, I've deleted the link to your website. Is this ok for your?
Remi - please email or PM me so I can respond privately.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
There's one more link in post #55.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Ok, it's deleted. Thank you, John.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
V12CatMan
sorry did not mean to appear dismissive - just a bit gob-smacked - have amended post #63
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
but its not built on rock is it
No, I don't think so. There are tons of factors necessary, in order to hold a page rank. It depends also a little bit on the actuality of a website, if Google sees it as "worth" to have a rank #1.
Remi
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
ok - if I ever need a site of my own that needs rating, I can see I will need to go into this in some depth..
thanks Remi
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Remi/Bill - can you look at the Control Panel and see why I cannot send a private email or reply to yours? Then you can delete this post.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Quote:
Originally Posted by
V12CatMan
Remi/Bill - can you look at the Control Panel and see why I cannot send a private email or reply to yours? Then you can delete this post.
You need to have at least 25 posts before you can use PM on this forum. :(
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
V12CatMan,
No need to panic! I will go ahead and delete the page. It should only take a few days before things go "back to normal".
The experiment worked... It's all I wanted to check.
Risto
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Great:( John - please send me a personal email so I can respond to Remi's message. I don't want to make 9 quick posts.
Thanks
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
I don't know your e-mail. I'm not moderator. But I think Remi can contact with you by e-mail.
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
Or, to make it quick, e-mail me on: [removed]
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Re: [Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding
It's deleted. Give it a day or two.
Risto