Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
Harpguy has a point in that it would be better if xara could resize within the browser, why they have not done it is their business, I for one believe that their would be tens of thousands of designers out there who would purchase xara if it had that feature; I have already shown xara to a number of web designers (dreamweaver and wordpress/joomla designers) but they all ask the same thing, why no cms?
Now to get down to the business of business; I have passed on more than 5 times the amount of sites I have done, well over 90 now, on to at least 20 other designers to create sites in a cms such as wordpress as it simply cannot be done in xara, that is not only money that I have lost out on but also that is also money xara have lost out on as if it had that feature then those designers would have purchased the software ( that's $5980 lost out in sales from these designers alone). I do not have any where near the knowledge of software engineering to be able to know whether it can be done or not but as a layman I have to ask why not.
You all know of my love of the software as I seem to be posting a new site every few days but I would love to hear from someone from xara to explain why it is impossible to have both the freedom of design and this function together.
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
At the risk of making some people angry. I must ask if there is something about What You See Is What You Get (WYSIWYG) that some people do not understand?
If a page changes anything and this includes width and/or length of the page, it is NOT WYSIWYG. This simple concept is one reason I usually do not post replies in the Web Designer Chat forum.
If you insist on having Dynamic content then purchase a Dynamic Hypertext Markup Language (DHTML) application.
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
As far as i know bill there are no children on this forum so don't worry no one is going to get angry over the features of a piece of software. And also you clearly know about web design and you're a moderator with 18k+ posts so why not post on the web designer forum, there are people on there who are beginners and need help with using the software and asking questions and they could use your help. This is a forum for people who have purchased software from xara and help to keep it in business. sometimes it becomes too easy to think this person or that person doesn't understand the software and treat them as if they are idiots only because you already know the answers. We are users, if someone suggests something be added to the software or more likely says 'wouldn't it be nice if..' they are helping the company to make it's software better; only a bad business ignores their customer's views or requests. Anyway as I said it would be nice to have an answer from xara instead of an end user.
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pauland
Please give examples.
No problem. However, before I do that, lemmee ask you a question: Do you disagree that Xara would be better and more useful if it had the feature I describe?
If you don't, then is what you're doing really about furthering that end, or is it about punishing a guy who had the temerity to come in here and express a heartfelt, valid, and I dare say sound opinion? Are you, as what I presume is a loyal Xara user, so both loyal, and offended because of it, that you feel the need to get into the fray and throw a punch or two just for its sake?
Of course, you, me, and God know what your viewpoint really is, to wit:
HarpGuy, it's you who is missing the point here.
I've no doubt that if Xara could make the web page designs auto-size to content inside the browser, they would.
Anyone who understands how HTML and CSS (which is what the browser renders) works, will know straight away why Xara cannot auto-size content in the way that you wish. The HTML and CSS created by the design tool is designed to faithfully replicate the design created by the tool and to do that it places elements at specific sizes in specific places.
Web pages designed for dynamic content don't work like that. They don't need to replicate a particular design; instead they are optimised to create a layout with set relationships between the page elements. Because they do not use fixed sizes and positions they can adapt to content.
It takes a lot of skill using HTML and CSS to build content-adaptable pages. It requires none of that knowledge to build fixed size pages using Xara.
Don't waste your energy moaning about Xara not listening. Not building in this feature is not a choice they have made - it's a problem to build it because of the HTML generation techniques required to replicate a specific design.
There are workarounds to the problem, but really wish as much as you like that Xara incorporate this feature, but don't keep believing it's not been implemented because Xara doesn't realise how useful it can be.
Work around it with Xara or use some other software.
Ah... and so there it really is: America, love it or leave it, eh? That's really what it's about around here. Don't dare upset the lovely little right-brained apple cart you all have here... is that it? I'm welcome as long as I tow the line, don't dare to question conventional wisdom... avoid maybe even tossing in a little of my own?
I couldn't possibly have anything to teach any of you, eh? Is that pretty much it?
I'm 55 years old... gonna' be 56 in two months. I've been in IT for pushing forty years. I've forgotten more about most computer-related technologies than most here, I dare say, will ever know. Yes, I know how arrogant that sounds, but I need to use the arrogance for just a second to make the point that not all newbies -- or, worse, those who dare to have thought of their own and, heaven forbid, express them here -- are to be castigated out of hand... especially just for the sport of it. Shame on you.
PAUL WROTE: Anyone who understands how HTML and CSS (which is what the browser renders) works...
MY RESPONSE: The W3C-compliant HTML code to make a centered, variable-height, 465-pixel-wide borderless table is...
Code:
<div align="center">
<table border="0" width="465">
<tr>
<td>this is where the text would go</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
...and that there's no no height specified in the <table border> tag of it is what makes it variable height... simple as that.
And the equivalent W3C-compliant CSS/HTML code needed to make a centered, variable-height, 465-pixel-wide borderless DIV, while more complex, is, by CSS standards, not really any less simple, to wit:
The necessary CSS:
Code:
* { margin: 0; padding: 0; }
#page{display:table;overflow:hidden;margin:0px auto;}
*:first-child+html #page {position:relative;}/*ie7*/
* html #page{position:relative;}/*ie6*/
#content_container{display:table-cell;vertical-align: middle;}
*:first-child+html #content_container{position:absolute;top:50%;}/*ie7*/
* html #content_container{position:absolute;top:50%;}/*ie6*/
*:first-child+html #content{position:relative;top:-50%;}/*ie7*/
* html #content{position:relative;top:-50%;}/*ie6*/
html,body{height:100%;}
#page{height:100%;width:465px;}
The accompanying HTML:
Code:
<div id="page">
<div id="content_container">
<div id="content">
<p>this is where the text would go</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
...and so, then, Paul... do I qualify under your "[a]nyone who understands..." requirement?
Just checking.
PAUL CONTINUED: ...will know straight away why Xara cannot auto-size content in the way that you wish. The HTML and CSS created by the design tool is designed to faithfully replicate the design created by the tool and to do that it places elements at specific sizes in specific places.
MY RESPONSE: First of all, Xara can... at least with the addition of a simple script which may be found in a zip file right in these very forums. But that would be the very workaround that I so abhor; and it's not from Xara, in any case. So, for the moment, you're right: Xara can't. But only because its maker chooses not to, trust me. You can see by thhe simplicity of the code needed to make it happen (which I've just herein provided) that it's not rocket science.
You do, however, make a very relevant point in your talk about Xara's faithful replication in the HTML file of the design as created on the screen, and it pixel-accurate element placement and sizing. Indeed, that's actually the whole problem. Xara so accurately does that that it ends-up creating finished code which, while being technically W3C-compliant, as it claims, it is so only in that it doesn't break any of its rules, but the amount of code is unnecessarily huge. If you've ever looked at, for example, that which Xara surrounds every single line of simple text, then you can get a quick understanding of how voluminous is the code.
However, with computers being as fast as they are these days, I don't really have very much of a problem with that. No longer are the days when most Internet users are dialed-in on a 56Kbps modem. Web pages no longer need to be a crisp 50K in size in order to be "optimum." Huge pages because they're all bloated with unnecessary code are, seriously, okay with me. This is the age of broadband, so no problem, here.
[CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST]
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
[CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST]
But I completely get your point, and you're right about it. Because of the way Xara uniquely (among WYSIWYG web development tools) does what it does, it would, indeed, be difficult for Xara pages, as they're now generated, to be variable length/height. I agree.
All that means, though, is that how they're generated, whenever the page needs to be variable height, needs to simply change. It's as easy as putting a checkbox somewhere in Xara's user interface to indicate that the page needs to be variable height/length, and then maybe a few other specifications, and, voila!, it's done. At that point, all Xara would have to do is generate the kind of CSS/HTML code for the part of the page that needs to auto-resize, and that's it. Beyond that, all it would have to do is add the ability to specify, likely in the upper-left corner of said resizable part, what is the desired CMS tag or marker.
Xara can do it. All that's required is the will.
PAUL CONTINUED: Web pages designed for dynamic content don't work like that. They don't need to replicate a particular design; instead they are optimised to create a layout with set relationships between the page elements. Because they do not use fixed sizes and positions they can adapt to content.
MY RESPONSE: Well, you're right... but only in broad strokes, at least for our purposes, here. Dynamic content web pages absolutely both need to, and both can and do work like that; they do need to replicate a particular design; and they do, at least in some of their parts, use fixed sizes and positions. When I do a template page, all the graphics and the placement of the various components -- even the top and left/right of the variable-length parts -- are pixel accurate... as if in concrete. Only that which needs to vertically adjust, does adjust; and, believe me, it adjusts the way I want it to. It's not out there, wandering around the page, depending on what browser it's in, or the day of the week, or a full moon, or any of the things you seem to be suggesting affect things.
It's true that Xara does pixel-accurate placement like few others... maybe even like no other. But it's not the only game in town. Others do a credible job, too; and if one learns how to really and truly use them, and to leverage them, one can get there by hook or by crook. Xara doesn't have the lock on getting it done, generally; but it's true that it pretty much as the lock on doing it so rigidly... so rigidly, in fact, that there's no room for what I'm asking, just as you say. But that's a choice Xara is making, not a limitation; or, rather, it's a self-imposed limitation. Don't kid yourself.
PAUL CONTINUED: It takes a lot of skill using HTML and CSS to build content-adaptable pages. It requires none of that knowledge to build fixed size pages using Xara.
MY RESPONSE: Um... er... you mean more skill than the paltry amount of simple code that I included herein, above? 'Cause if that's "a lot" to you, then that explains much.
PAUL CONTINUED: Don't waste your energy moaning about Xara not listening. Not building in this feature is not a choice they have made - it's a problem to build it because of the HTML generation techniques required to replicate a specific design.
MY RESPONSE: Moaning? You couldn't have used a less pejorative and insulting word? And then you wonder why I think you're just throwing punches for punches sake.
Xara is not listening. Not building-in this feature is a choice they have made. And it's no more a problem to build than I've herein described. Yes, it would require a small departure -- but only for pages which the user specifies must be vertically auto-resizable -- from Xara tradition when it comes to outputting the CSS and HTML; but said CSS and HTML need be no more involved than what I've herein specified.
PAUL CONTINUED: There are workarounds to the problem...
MY RESPONSE: About my abhorrence of which I couldn't have been more clear.
PAUL CONTINUED: ..but really wish as much as you like that Xara incorporate this feature...
MY RESPONSE: Apparently not, I'd say... given the grief I'm taking around here for it.
PAUL CONTINUED: ...but don't keep believing it's not been implemented because Xara doesn't realise how useful it can be.
MY RESPONSE: Oh, I agree. Trust me, that no one at Xara realizes how useful it can be is not the reason it hasn't been done. Believe me on that. I'm sure, in fact, that several people -- maybe even lots of them -- at Xara understand how helpful it could be...
...but with its user base around here following like lemmings and insisting that it can't be done when it positively can; or, worse, not even grasping -- or even worse than that, being willing to -- the need, there's obviously no pressure on Xara to do it. Nor, if conversations like this keep-up, will there ever be.
The bottom line on your first line, though, Paul, is that I'm pretty sure that I actually do get it; that I'm not "missing the point here."
So, hows 'bout if we continue this...
...you keep that in mind, eh?
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
At the risk of making some people angry. I must ask if there is something about What You See Is What You Get (WYSIWYG) that some people do not understand?
WYSIWYG, and pages that are capable of vertically auto-resizing, are not mutually exclusive. All that's mutually exclusive, under current (but easily changeable) conditions, is Xara's particular way of doing WYSIWYG and pages that are capable of vertically auto-resizing. Remember that Xara's not the only WYSIWYG tool out there. It's just the only one that chooses to do it the way it does it...
...and, again, don't get me wrong: I think the way it does it is terrific! Xara's maker just needs to be willing to let loose of the reins a little on pages that need to vertically auto-adjust, that's all. It's not, I'm telling you, rocket science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
If a page changes anything and this includes width and/or length of the page, it is NOT WYSIWYG.
I'm sorry, that's just nonsense. That's like saying that 3:2 beer isn't really beer. C'mon. The initialism (but since it's pronounceable, it's probably, more accurately, an acronym) "WYSIWYG" refers to a broad range of techniques. Xara's is but one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
If you insist on having Dynamic content then purchase a Dynamic Hypertext Markup Language (DHTML) application.
Oy... where to begin. DHTML has nothing to do with what we're talking about, here. The "dynamic" of DHTML doesn't refer to dynamically sizing anything. DHTML is nothing more than a souped-up (and even then, only slightly so) form of javascript. That's all. Truthfully, I've never really quite known to what whomever thought-up the term was referring by his/her use of the "D" for "dynamic." (Actually, I know what s/he intended, but I just kinda' don't get it, considering that, really, all it is is javascript, with slight enhancement to make it so that it kinda' responds to stuff... an oversimplification, I admit, but it's appropriate for our purposes, here).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
This simple concept is one reason I usually do not post replies in the Web Designer Chat forum.
Well, that just makes me sad, 'cause, seriously, spirited discussion is how minds are changed, people get educated, and things ultimately happen. It can be frustrating -- nay, even maddening -- and vexing, but it's nearly always worth participating in, at least a little.
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skech
Harpguy has a point...
Ohmygod... is that an ally I see off in the distance? [grin]
Let's keep reading and see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skech
...in that it would be better if xara could resize within the browser, why they have not done it is their business, I for one believe that their would be tens of thousands of designers out there who would purchase xara if it had that feature; I have already shown xara to a number of web designers (dreamweaver and wordpress/joomla designers) but they all ask the same thing, why no cms?
Hmm. Okay... so far seems kinda' ally-ish. Let's read more, though... I'm a little gunshy about this place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skech
Now to get down to the business of business; I have passed on more than 5 times the amount of sites I have done, well over 90 now, on to at least 20 other designers to create sites in a cms such as wordpress as it simply cannot be done in xara, that is not only money that I have lost out on but also that is also money xara have lost out on as if it had that feature then those designers would have purchased the software ( that's $5980 lost out in sales from these designers alone). I do not have any where near the knowledge of software engineering to be able to know whether it can be done or not but as a layman I have to ask why not.
Okay... so far still seems ally-ish... so, so far, so good...
...but let me jump-in, here, on one important concept, to wit: WordPress (or any essentially blogging system) is not a CMS in the sense that I mean it, here. Er... well... yes, it falls into the general category of CMS, but it's more of an all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs sort of thing.
People mistakenly use WordPress as their entire CMS, and that's just such a huge, huge mistake. WordPress is for blogging; and so it should be the sole CMS only if the site is entirely a blog.
Oh, sure, WordPress has made a few improvements to its back-end -- especially the part where one can create and name and task one's own fields -- which, I admit, blurs the line a bit between a blogging CMS, and a more generalized CMS. And it's also true, finally, with recent editions of WordPress, that it's possible to develop templates which don't even look bloglike at all, yet may still be used in WordPress. And when the developer is that good, then, yes, WordPress can be shoehorned-in to the task of being a web site's general, overall CMS. But that's not how it was developed to be used.
And people using WordPress as their general overall CMS makes me, for one, positivelyl insane! A web site's "About" or "Contact" page should not be a blog entry. CMS's that are actually blogging systems may certainly be used on any web site, but only for the part of it that's actually a blog, fortheluvofgod! For the rest of the site, a generalized, non-blog-specific CMS should be used. I keep making that point, and making that point, and making that point around the web, and it just won't soak in. WordPress is not a CMS, such as I'm talking about, here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skech
You all know of my love of the software as I seem to be posting a new site every few days but I would love to hear from someone from xara to explain why it is impossible to have both the freedom of design and this function together.
Okay... so, then... cool! Ally, after all. [grin] Whew! It was startin' to get a little lonely in here. [grin, again]
I, too, love Xara. If I could get its maker to pull its head out of it's... er... well... youknowwhat... and add the ability to vertically auto-resize a page in the browser, I'd pony-up my 300 bucks so fast my checkbook would have smoke rising off of it.
And, to be clear -- and I should have written this earlier -- it's not merely pages that we're talking about, here. Whenever a page dynamically veritically resizes, it's actually a component on it that's resizing; and only a part of the page... some part below however far downn it the boilerplate/template-kinda' stuff (that's the same on every page) ends. So, then, it's really either tables, or cells or DIVS (depending on whether one does it the old-fashioned HTML-only way, or one uses the more current-technology CSS/HTML way) -- probably nested -- which need to vertically auto-resize. Actually, though, I shouldn't have to hair-split, here. I'd hope that if Xara ever said anything like, "okay, fine... we'll do it... help us understand what you want," they let us... or me... or someone actually spec it out. I know that I'd certainly be happy to do it...
...er... you know... if that day ever came...
...for which, of course, I'll not hold my breath. [grin]
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
Harpguy,
I have no idea if or when Xara will implement such a facility. Or even if the cost or technicalities of implementing it is viable. They may price themselves out of their niche market. The fact is that when it comes to CMS this is not the tool for the job. There are plenty more out there to be going on with.
It may be that a product similar in function to what you describe will be made by Xara in the future but I suspect it will be an entirely separate application with less hand holding and more freedom. I for one would be certainly interested in such an application. :D
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drwyd
I have no idea if or when Xara will implement such a facility
Whew! So then I guess I was pretty smart about the not holding my breath thing in the other post, eh? [grin]
But seriously...
...yes, I understand what you're saying. I guess my lament is that the very thing which all of you so love about using Xara as your both graphics software, and your web design software, is precisely why I want to do it, too. My problem is that I don't want to be using all different kinds of tools. I want to standardize on one. And since Xara will do everything I want except the dynamic vertical page sizing, it feels so awful to be at the "close, but no cigar" point in all this.
But for that one thing, and I suspect I'd be able to sell all my Adobe stuff, all my PaintShop Pro stuff (although, I'd probably never get rid of that old standby), etc.
Xara, just in case anyone here thinks I'm a hater, is absolutely terrific... just way cool. I could not be a bigger fan...
...and, moreover, I could not have more respect for those of you who use it to do amazing things. I wasn't kidding in what I wrote to Gary, herein, earlier. That to which he referred me was first rate! Really good. Gary's a gifted guy.
It just makes me so frustrated that Xara refuses -- and I don't care what anyone here says, that's what it is; it's a choice, simple as that... intransigence, as far as I'm concerned -- to come into the 21st century on the purely technological vertical auto-resizing issue, and concomitant ability to pixel-perfectly-place CMS tags and/or markers where text should be allowed to flow.
I'm serious -- and this point was deftly made from another angle by Sketch, here -- Xara is just so, so, so dumb on this. They're leaving so much money on the table! It's as if Xara doesn't realize that if it would just do what I'm herein advocating (and the reason I'm so frustrated is that I've been so doing for years, with no results) there are, I'll bet dollars to donuts, Dreamweaver/Photoshop users who'd flock to Xara in a heartbeat.
[sigh] Well... anyway... it is what it is. [sigh, again]
It'll never happen, though, if this group -- this one, right here in this forum -- doesn't demand it of Xara, and then hold Xara's feet to the fire about it.
If it's all the same to you, I won't hold my breath for that, either. [grin]
Re: Is auto-adjusting/resizing of page lengths finally in Designer Pro X (v8)?
This from a person I consider to be a Xara authority with knowledge and skills far exceeding mine.
To cut this down to a few words (miracle of miracles), as Bill points out, Xara is a very excellent WYSIWYG editing application. I have used it to create a stable of websites of which I am exceptionally proud. I am a designer and not a programmer. Xara does what I want. This is why I use Designer Pro and not Dreamweaver.
I most humbly suggest that if this product does not meet your needs, then find a product that does.