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  1. #1
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    Default Xara: Improvements????

    Before I start here let me say that i am new to xara although an old hat at corel and i have to say what i have seen of it definitely impresses me...especially the real time generation....but this my first post on this forum is mainly pertaining to ways in which i believe a basically already solid vector app could be further streamlined....

    so having evaluated xara the following are my thoughts in regard to how i think it could be best improved......(apologies for the long post any ideas and feed back most welcome...)

    Xara Extreme IDEAS..... (David Hewitt: hewitt_dj@yahoo.com.au)

    As a digitizer of some 10 years experience (In the embroidery field) and with much experience using corel ETC I have some definitly HOT ideas that i believe could greatly improve the core function of Xara ....I.E creating paths and shapes!

    Thes are just some of my ideas... the first few being the most important and powerful. Some of the latter ones are just my opinion...But here goes....

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    1) Two button input mode.(option)
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    As many paths inevitably consist of both corner or curve nodes in combination, having dedicated input "modes" (as is currently the case) to either enter "curved" or "straight" line segments only does not make alot of sense and actually causes the user to have to make otherwise un-necessary additional input steps to switch between modes as required on the fly (usually where-ever a corner is required).

    So to facilitate this mixture of node types more efficiently what I am proposing is a new improved node input option in Xara extreme that would allow the user to utilize both mouse buttons whilst in-putting nodes.
    This new input mode would allow the user to place down both curved and staight line segments resectovely with the "shape editor tool" (and also possibly add more fuctionality to the "pen" tool also :more later)

    This would mean that instead of having to "switch modes" (I.E by press the [C] or [L] keys or clicking on the icons on-screen Etc...) the user could simply use the [Left Mouse] or [Right Mouse] buttons instead to place down "curve points" or "corner points" respectively, Eliminating the need to tediously switch between modes whilst creating paths.

    This advance would mean that the user could mix and match curve and straight segments in the one path with-out tedious deviations.

    Personally the embroidery application i use has employed this approach and i have to say that it is so superior that the alternative seems frightening in comparison...whilst it is true that having the right mouse reserved for a drop down menu is a windows standard (and a nice one to have universally up-held), in this instance the right click menu which appears in Xara Extreme when using the "node Editor tool" brings up quite irrelevant functions anyway and when you compare this to the big payoffs gained by utilizing the [right mouse] for more core input tasks the big dividends achieved by way of greater speed of input and ease of use ETC make the decision of weather or not to implement such a scheme as this an easy one.

    Also it is note worthy that this should be offered as an option... but i think you would find that the vast majority of people would actually totally abandon the existing single button modality 5 seconds after discovering this new proposed 2 button input model.

    My preference would be (with the two button input mode on) for the Left mouse button to do curve points and for the right mouse button to do corner points... only because most input points in most paths are "curve points" with cusp points (corners) being generally less common. But i also feel that it would be easy and benificial if this could be easily reversed for the sake of convienience and with a quick on-screen UI device.

    I think to facilitate this new funtion UI wize on-screen ETC.. you could simply add a new icon to the info bar (I.E the one that appears when tools are selected).This could be just a small mouse icon with a "2" superimposed over it. Clicking (depressing) this icon would activate the 2 button input mode. Also when you activate this button with respect to the node editor tool this new "2 button mode" would also slightly alter the existing "Make Curve" and "Make Line" icons so that they each had a small "R" or "L" up in the top right hand corner to show which mouse button was assigned to each respectively and you could even have these blink as you placed down curve or corner points respectively to remind the user they are employing both modes with the same tool with this new method.

    Also the little corner "mini icons" ("R" & "L") would also serve as toggle controls to swap the Right and Left allocation around quickly and easily on screen. Overall I think the advances just outlined above would require very minimal additional coding and would pay off big with time savings and contruibute greatly to the ease of use of Xara.


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    2) Holding down the [Alt] Key should be a hot swap between the "shape editor" & "Pen" tools.
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    When "digitizing" (placing down nodes) it is always the case that there are times/places on any path that can be done quickly, usually best rapid fire with the "node Editor tool" ETC and then other instances where more control may be required for fine detail ETC and so switching to the "pen tool" to effect more exact "bezier" control of a node is some areas is sometimes advantagious.

    It is note worthy that Xara can already do this but not as quickly or easily as should be the case. if you are using the "shape editor tool" and you want to put in one controlled bezier point you should be able to do this by depressing the [Alt] Key, so that whilst held it would be as if (mid input) you were now in "pen tool" mode. This would allow the user to easily straddle the functionality of both these tools with-out the need to have to (in this case) use [Shift] [F5] place your point and then [F4] to return, to do this which is currently the case.

    This short-cut could readily work both ways between these 2 tools so that which ever tool you were actually using depressing the [Alt] Key and holding it down would temporarily swap you over to the other tool and upon releasing it bring you back to your original tool.

    You will see that both these 2 suggestions above bring existing functionality together in a more harmonius way that does not actually propose a new fuction or input method but actually really an improved sythesis of existing tools, alowing greater leverage by cross linking existing functions and allowing them to work more closely together in new and better ways.


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    2B) There needs to be a "Hot Swap" the access the "freehand tool" from the other 2 input tools
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    In the interests of "total tool integration" that there also needs to be a short cut/hot key to access the "freehand tool" from with in any other input tools...

    I realize that this is already possible by hitting F3 and then starting ontop of the last node Etc...
    But it really would help to better integrate all the tools if there was a sort cut to "hot swap" (iE change to another tool only while another key is depressed ETc) so that you could more easily and quickly mix and match the input methods particular to the various tools....

    IE so that i would propose that in addition to the current method that a quicker short cut should exist to better link this tool in to the others.....

    With these changes in place then you could basically stick to using the "shape editor tool" for all your needs and then you would only need to hold [Alt] at any time whist placing down nodes to place down a manually controlled bezier node or ateratively perhaps hold down another key to quickly access the "quick sketching abilility" on offer under the "freehand tool" this "hot swap" would eliminate the necessity of having to hit F3 click on the last node and then sketch a segment and then press F4 to change back then click on the last node ETC to pick up where you left off ETc.....
    I.E this hotswap method would mean after placing down a node with one click you would simply hold down the "hot swap" key for this tool and sketch a segment and when you released this "hot swap key" you would be automatically back in the node editor tool ready to continue.......

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    3) When moving a Beizier handle of a node, holding the [Shift] key should force symetrical "line lengths" on both sides, for both bezier handles.
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    IE. This improvement seems rather obvious as is its great advantage.


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    4) When you have any object selected (with the select tool) hitting space should always put that object into "shape Edit mode" with its last node selected!
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    IE. This is already the case if you have just created an object with the "node editor tool" and you hit the [Space Bar] key. IE... in this case you are brought into select mode where you can move the object around and then by hitting the [Space Bar] key again (with-out selecting anything else in the mean time) you are brought back into "node edit mode" and you can just continue placing down points and pick up where you left off ETC...This method is already great and very handy....

    My idea is to extend this same courtesy wholesale to any selected object regardless of weather or not it was just active ETC.....
    This would function as a quick method of "Punching in" on any object..... Ie simply by select it and hitting the [Space Bar] key!

    This way with one key stroke it would be as though you had just punched (placed down) the last node of the selected object and you could continue it as if you had just only placed down its last node and had not yet finalized it! Very quick, very powerful, very convienient.

    Also i think this idea could be extended a little also to encorporate the "reverse path" function.
    IE... if you hit space for a selected object that has not just been created then it would first enter "object edit mode" with the last node selected but if you hit space 2 more times....IE to bring it back to "select mode" and then straight back to "node edit mode" again..... this would have the effect of toggling the node selected from one-side to the other....
    I.E this would be an additional way to save the user the trouble of having to manually select the other side of the object if it was his intention to start "punching in" on the other side.

    This advance would mean any object could be picked up with one press of a button and be instantly ready to be added onto from either end in a fraction of a second.


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    5) Angle constrict Should have a popup property on the info bar.
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    IE. This is not really manditory like the points above but i think it would be cool to have a property appear on the info bar when every you depress the [Ctrl] key that would simply be a number to represent the number of divisions in the constriction ....I.E 4 divisions would = 90 degrees (IE 360 /4=90)..
    I.E its just another way of representing the same information...instead of having these angles expressed as numbers that divide evenly into 360 its alot more self explanitory to express this by the number of divisions required.... ie 2 devisions =180 degrees and 3 would = 120 degrees ETC....
    But also in additon to this you should have another number to represent the start angle... So you could have 2 devisions IE.....180 degree constriction and then you could adjust the angle... This would make the constriction tool more versatile. But in any event you would have easy access to this info...iE any time you could hold [Ctrl] down and just either type in a number or press up or down arrows to alter the constriction break up.


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    6) node reduction can not be done on the fly whilst creating paths....
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    IE. It is interesting that this slider is actually active whilst you are placing down nodes with the "node editor" tool and that any change to it at this time has no effect! This seem rather a shame...
    Whist it is obvious that if no nodes are selected then none can be reduced but if you actually click this slider whilst digitizing then what should occur is that you should be able to node reduce the line on the fly......
    Or you should be able to preset this slider (with no objects selected) and then when as you were placing down point in an input with either the "node editor tool" or the "Pen tool" these would be node-reduced in real time (re-generated) for every new point you placed down. what this would do would be apply the reduction factor (say 56% for arguements sake) to the original input path as it would look in its original un-reduced state... re-calculating the reduction for every subsequent point you placed down. This way you could set a node reduction factor and have it apply generally with out even any nodes needing to be selected in the first place and this could just as well work on the fly or all new objects.


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    7) There appears to be no "clean" method to finalize objects in Xara.
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    IE.It is strange that you HAVE to hold the [shift] key and click the background ETC to actually finalize an input in xara..... this to me seems more than a little strange... as actually finishing an object is one of the most important functions.....
    I.E you need to do this for every single input you
    ever create! And to have to hold a key and then click somewhere vacant on the screen to achieve this most important function is madness!
    I can understand that using the shift key in this way is a great way to mix and match between editing nodes and creating nodes iE you have used this to tie together both the editing and creation functions in a way that makes alot of sense which i can understand.....BUT... that does not mean that you should force the user to have to de-select an object with this method to actually finalize it!

    I noticed that with the "node editor tool" that hitting enter actually finalizes the input and that this also makes the object a "closed shape"....
    I would propose that you should change this so that the [Enter] key always finalizes an object and that you should use [Shift]-[enter] to finalize an object and have it treated as a closed shape.....
    This should work for both the "node editor tool" and the "Pen tool"....


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    8) When Selecting objects in Xara:
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    The cursor should change when you go over an object out line to denote that you are currently over a selectable outline... also i think when you actually click an object to select it this whole outline should change colour when the object handles appear.....
    I.E you should have an option that selected objects change to white (for example) or in some way become highlighted so that it is absolutely obvious which object is actually selected as it has happened to me several times that i have actually seen the object handles appear for my selected object by somehow actually not been sure which object is actually selected and then to my amazement somehow found the the outline i thought was selected was actually not!
    This problem is also apparent when selecting many objects as only a tiny square currently appears to indicate which objects are selected which is far from being clear....
    Again i think there needs to some kind of sheme to highlight the selected object by changing their colours to a very high contrast colour so as to aid in the visualization of the actual selection.

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    Just some ideas on how i think xara could be improved...
    I would appreciate it if anyone on the list could give me an email address for the design manager at xara or someone with whom i could discuss such issues....
    is this the right forum....thanks david...
    P.S. any input from experienced and progressive users would be welcome....

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    Hi welcome

    contact info for xara ltd is on their website xara.com

    this is a user forum - but xara employees do visit and occasionally post

    I will be interested to see what other members make of your suggestions - from my point of view it would not make a lot of difference but I am not a typical xtreme user....

    That said - to be able to extend the current programmability of the mouse buttons is something I would generally welcome
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    Hi David and welcome

    Some feedback from my perspective:

    1) It has never bothered me, but I can see that if you do a lot of straight and curved segments while drawing 1 shape you'd like to see a better way to switch between the two methods.
    Currently when using the pen tool, clicking on the canvas does create a straight segment, but not if the last point was a curved one. Who knows, maybe it's possible to implement this idea in the pen tool seeing as it has no info bar.

    2 & 2B) I agree that continuing from the last node when quick-switching to another tool would better the flow. And the 3 tools you mention do have their similarities. The ALT key already has a function with the freehand tool though. Maybe it's possible to use the [ and ] keys.
    E.g. when in the shape editor tool, [ will switch to freehand and ] will switch to pen.
    In the freehand tool, [ will go to the pen and ] will go to the shape editor.
    In the Pen tool, [ would go to shape editor and ] would go to freehand.

    7) Instead of Shift-clicking, press Esc

    8) I agree with you that sometimes it's difficult to see which object is selected. Especially when CTRL clicking or ALT clicking on an object inside a cluster of other objects that have (approximately) the same size, fill and stroke colors. I admit that I've often been confused in such a situation. Turning the object into another color is a good start, but not always helpful. E.g. when ALT clicking to select an object that's entirely covered by another one, the color change cannot be seen at all.

    As a general comment, I can clearly see that with the work that you do these suggestions will greatly increase the workflow. However the question is how much other Xara users (that use the software for other purposes) will benefit from these changes. With all due respect I think that most of your suggestions may have minor impact on the productivity of the major userbase of Xara, but you never know. If enough users agree with your points, the developers will give them higher priority on their to-do list for future Xara versions
    Quote Originally Posted by David Hewitt View Post
    Just some ideas on how i think xara could be improved...
    I would appreciate it if anyone on the list could give me an email address for the design manager at xara or someone with whom i could discuss such issues....
    The Xara developers often visit this forum; though they don't always post something, I'm sure they read all posts that contain suggestions and such.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    Welcome to the Xtreme Conference David

    CorelDRAW is a very excellent product and can do many things that Xtreme cannot do. That said it is also feature bloated, sluggish, and tries to be all things to all people. Many of our members have migrated to Xtreme from CorelDRAW.

    We like Xtreme for its simplicity and its speed and its elegance. If you visit the gallery on the Xara.com website or the Featured Artists Gallery on www.XaraXone.com you will see some exceptional work created by some exceptional artists who work with Xtreme because it lets them do what they do best.

    New users to Xtreme, more often than not have many excellent suggestions, such as those you have taken the time to share with us. And as Xara Group Ltd. frequently visit this forum, many of the better or more requested features do find their way into the product.

    My advice to new users is always the same. Take the time to get to know how Xtreme works. There is a definite logic and flow and rhythm. Like any new software this takes time to get into. Like learning a foreign language, when you start dreaming in that language, you are home free.

    Most of the members who frequent this conference have their favorite wish list items. But most of us learn how to make Xara do what we want it to do and don't give it a second thought. It just becomes rote, and automatic.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    Quote Originally Posted by The Alien View Post
    Hi David and welcome

    As a general comment, I can clearly see that with the work that you do these suggestions will greatly increase the workflow. However the question is how much other Xara users (that use the software for other purposes) will benefit from these changes. With all due respect I think that most of your suggestions may have minor impact on the productivity of the major userbase of Xara, but you never know. If enough users agree with your points, the developers will give them higher priority on their to-do list for future Xara versions
    Thanks for the feedback:
    Obviously im giving input from my own repetitively "unique" perspective and everyone uses an app differently that is for sure but:
    I don't share your skepticism to my assertion that this change ect would have immediately apparent application.

    What is the major userbase of Xara?
    perhaps most people use it as a "universal container" to stitch different images of various types together add text ETC......
    I dont know and if this is the case then my improvements will not greatly effect these people....

    any graphic designers out there?
    anyone need to create a line or shape?

    my guess is there is enough people out there that want to or need to create vector lines and shapes with Xara....And if you do want to create any line or shape with any vector app... you are talking about input tools....

    Which one should they use? which one is most applicable to the object they want to create?

    I dont know! this is the precise reason my idea is a good one.
    No one can anticipate fully which tool or combination of input tools best suits the creation of a specific object required by a specific individual in any one specific case....
    different horses for different courses for sure....

    my idea maximizes the speed and convenience of changing between tools to suit the situation.

    The only reason you could possibly argue that this is not of immediate great benefit would be if you did not think it is necessary to switch between tools on the fly...Ie you feel that most users would only use the one tool from start to finish to create any one object.....

    But then again the Xara team has gone to great trouble to ensure this type of tool switching is possible. My idea is to strengthen and optimize the speed required to make these switches.....

    So i would argue that Xara themselves have already endorsed the necessity of on the fly "tool switching"... as they have enshrined it into their app and their ethos..... my idea is to make it faster...... and in such a way that does not detract from existing work methods.....and also in such a way that does not involve big code changes ETC....

    To me its a no-brainer....

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    Quote Originally Posted by gwpriester View Post
    Welcome to the Xtreme Conference David
    Most of the members who frequent this conference have their favorite wish list items. But most of us learn how to make Xara do what we want it to do and don't give it a second thought. It just becomes rote, and automatic.
    Thanks, how you doin...

    yeah i have a bit to learn i would conceed that...

    But my axe to grind is definitely tool integration.... tight tool integration...
    and when i look at xara i see that the frame work to achieve this tight integration (as i see it) is already there!

    So it pains me that even though this is already possible that there is no one button solution for input tool "hot swapping".

    Perhaps someone in the design team may read this and realise this idea i dont know....fingers crossed i guess

  7. #7

    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    Quote Originally Posted by David Hewitt View Post
    So it pains me that even though this is already possible that there is no one button solution for input tool "hot swapping".

    Perhaps someone in the design team may read this and realise this idea i dont know....fingers crossed i guess
    Xtreme comes with a shortcut key editor which allows you to modify your keyboard shortcuts as you please. Switching tools on the fly is in fact very simple, but if the default hotkeys don't suit, change them with the short-cut editor.
    Yes I am biased to a point (but with good reason), I have used many other vector drawing apps and don't for a moment consider their short-cut/hot-key/toggle buttons any better than those which are already available by Xtremes default functions.
    Working for a signwriter for more than two years as a designer I had to suffer software such as Gerber Omega, SignLab, Illustrator and to a lesser degree, CorelDraw. But when Xara Xtreme was discovered, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.

    Of all the wish-listing we read at TG over the years, no-one to my recollection has described such a problem/disatisfaction with the shortcut keys when choosing a different vector drawing tool.

    You say you are an old hand with CorelDraw, that's great, we'd love to see some of your work - but I'd invite you to take some more time to learn Xtreme rather than comparing it to closely with software which you've become adept with, (remember that many of CorelDraw's better features and functions came about as a result of the CorelXara days )

    My two cents worth, and I apologies if I have misunderstood you in any way, your posts are rather lenghty

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Xtreme comes with a shortcut key editor which allows you to modify your keyboard shortcuts as you please. Switching tools on the fly is in fact very simple, but if the default hotkeys don't suit, change them with the short-cut editor.
    Yes I am biased to a point (but with good reason), I have used many other vector drawing apps and don't for a moment consider their short-cut/hot-key/toggle buttons any better than those which are already available by Xtremes default functions.
    Working for a signwriter for more than two years as a designer I had to suffer software such as Gerber Omega, SignLab, Illustrator and to a lesser degree, CorelDraw. But when Xara Xtreme was discovered, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.

    Of all the wish-listing we read at TG over the years, no-one to my recollection has described such a problem/disatisfaction with the shortcut keys when choosing a different vector drawing tool.

    You say you are an old hand with CorelDraw, that's great, we'd love to see some of your work - but I'd invite you to take some more time to learn Xtreme rather than comparing it to closely with software which you've become adept with, (remember that many of CorelDraw's better features and functions came about as a result of the CorelXara days )

    My two cents worth, and I apologies if I have misunderstood you in any way, your posts are rather lenghty
    No probs...
    i would actually like to explore this avenue(short-cut editor ETC).....and i will " but i dont know if this is the solution to my problem as i would be very surprised if the scripting thingy in the shortcut editor in Xara allowed one to actually control/script what happens when you press a key as well as what happens when you release it, as well as to allow you to change what a button does depending on which tool you are actually using......

    P.S. As you can see one issue leads onto another ad infinitum LOL perhaps i should start a new thread...shortcut editor needs updating....

    As this is what would be required to create a "hot swap" key between the "shape editor" & "Pen tools". Man, if the scripting is this advanced i will be mightily impressed.

    And also with respect to the freehand tool switching to this whist you are using the shape editor tool for example would not result in a continuous line unless you also manually selected the last point of your line after changing to the free hand tool as this does not produce a sketch segment that will be joined to the current line segment unless you actually go to the trouble of selecting the last node of the line manually after you change to the freehand tool ETCbefore continuing with the freehand tool ETC...
    So this too would be a sticking point.

    But i take your point i will take a look just to see what is possible in this regard. P.S i just did and this type of flexibility is not apparent....

    as to my work on Corel... when i say "old hat" i mean i have been familiar with it for a long time and have used it extensively for projects for various jobs i have had and for my own projects but i have never been employed or required to use it exclusively or extensively as part of a job ETC so as to qualify my self as an expert user by any stretch of the imagination but for your own personal curiosity i do have a few projects i could show you...but they are not masterworks or anything and also they are in most cases not even complete but i am quite happy to share these with you ..........
    how should this be achieved?
    Last edited by David Hewitt; 11 January 2009 at 01:53 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    David I moved your CorelDraw related post to the CorelDraw Forum

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Xara: Improvements????

    David there are many members here that use Xara Xtreme, Corel Draw, Illustrator vector apps along with raster (bitmap) graphic programs on a daily basis.

    Using the correct program for the job is the key to success. Each application has strengths of it's own that are make it easier to achieve a given result.

    The secret to using all the applications harmoniously is to learn each without expecting it to work like any other. The similarities may make one think they should function the same. But there will always be differences that make some features better or easier to use in one app over another.
    Soquili
    a.k.a. Bill Taylor
    Bill is no longer with us. He died on 10 Dec 2012. We remember him always.
    My TG Album
    Last XaReg update

 

 

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