Advice on Graphic Design Classes

[RTK]

Sheff: I had one design teacher tell me and a few of us that basically, you either have 'it' or you don't. If you don't, then there is little anyone can do for you. If you have even a modicum of 'it' you can teach yourself anything you want to know.
--- I will disagree with that teacher! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif (Because I'm a 'know-it-all. http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif') No, but seriously, hear me out... In any class, in any school, you have students who stumbled in to a class for what ever reason, and of course some of those students will not have 'it.' I don't see 'it' as something "magical, or born-with talent" - I called IT - "interest/drive" just like in any other field of work. If you don't have a real interest/drive you will do lousy - where else would that be more obvious than when you have to dig deep to come up with something unique, original, different or personal?

I was trying to say that if you have "interest/drive" you can through hard work (and the oppurtunity to do it) catch up with some of those who have gotten a head start because of the paths they have chosen, or because of early encouragement, opportunity etc? No?

John, Very kind words there. Thank you! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Yes, approval is "important" - because if you don't get it (when doing graphic design/illustration for a living) you will starve. Real 'approval' - is people hiring you (again.) Or in "Fine-Arts" people buying the things you create.

Yes, it is nice when people say that they like what you do, but also - the people that have the "interest/drive" will deep-inside already know what is good and what it not, in what they did. However, sometimes it can be good to get things voiced (good and bad) from friendly, supportive people - like here at TG! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif (Everone, gets tired.) I'm sure that people with "interest/drive" will eventually find a way of working that feels right - yes, unfortunately some will not like it... just like in any other field of work... but you work at it.

<span class="ev_code_RED">BTW Moderators! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Maybe this thread would be more suitable for the 'Off-Topic' forum - it's not really Xara X related... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif</span>

[bcire68]

I don't really think we need to continue this post unless someone else has some good advice for me. However, I think that both Risto and John have missed my point and I wanted to head off that train of thought before it went any further.

I'm not really looking to be come a professional artist or graphic designer. All that I want is to become better at my hobby. To that end I thought that a few basic art classes might help me, and was looking for specific advice on the types of art classes that relate to making better graphic designs on the computer (hopefully via Xara X).

I have already found one reasonably good web resource and will be looking for others when I get some time. I will also take Risto's advice and check out some used book stores.

I have also found out that the U of Cincinnati (my current project is in Cincinnati) has a fairly prestigous art conservitory. I may stop into some of the many art supply stores in the city and see if I can find a student that would like to earn a few extra dollars for some private lessons.

As to this thread being on or off topic; I have to disagree with Risto. I am trying to become better at my chosen artistic media which is Xara X. That is what the Xara X forum is all about.

Thanks to everyone who has responded. I hope that this clears things up and wish all a pleasant day.

Cheers,
Eric

P.S. The finished drawing from above...

[gwpriester]

Eric

I took the liberty of reducing the size of your image.

Risto - Sheff and I both went to the same art school, Art Center College of Design in Los Angeles and now in Pasadena.

While I agree that you about having talent or not having talent, (I cannot speak for Sheff, although I suspect he was one of these people who always carried a sketchbook filled with incredible drawings and would have done well even without design school) I value the four years I spent at Art Center in that it focused me and made me a much better art director and designer than had I not had this schooling. Without my training, if I was lucky, I might have, if I was really lucky, found myself in a design or advertising company, doing very menial tasks.

The four years of extensive and intensive training offered by Art Center, a college for design professionals and photographers, was invaluable to me. Without it, I would probably be participating in this conference as a hobbyist and not as a design professional.

So, yeah, having talent is terrific, but as we have all seen, with encouragement and direction, each of us in this conference have become more skilled and more creative.

Gary

[GroWeb]

Eric;

One thing that seems to work really well for the learning processes of people on this forum is to post their work (as you have done here) and ask for criticism and suggestions. Even infrequent but interested dabblers like me can offer input that may be helpful (I hope!), as I will now proceed to do.

I really like the yellow in the petals of your flower. I also think you have done a good job with the 3-dimensionality of the fruit, especially the plum. Also, your placement and creation of shadows looks very convincing. A couple of places where I think you might want to apply more attention would be the edges of things, such as the flower and the fruit, as well as the use of highlight sharpness/feathering to creat texture. For example, I think the edges of your objects (flower and fruit) opposite the highlights/shadows need some rounding. And the apple highlight, for instance, should perhaps be brighter and sharper to show the apple's smooth texture.

These are ideas from a total non-expert, but I hope you find them helpful. I suspect the real experts here would be willing to give you some constructive input if you ask for it. I do not intend in any way to put hardworking art instructors out of a job, by the way; I'm just thinking that this forum could do more for you than it is already doing, if you ask for the help.

Regards,
Glen

[Sheff]

Hi Gang,

I want to say a couple things that are probably more suited for a private email, however I feel comfortable sharing my experience.

When I went to Art Center, I really felt like a monk in a monastery copying bibles. That was the type of dedicated focus you needed to have when you went there to get anything out of it. I was pretty miserable much of the time, however, looking back, ten years ago, I realize that those were some of the best days of my life.

I was happy, I just didn't know it.

School can be great as long as you're focused on what your goal is. As long as you know what you want, you can find your way.

Now, someone who has talent will have a head start on someone who has to work hard. However in my opinion, someone who has desire is better off that someone who has only talent. In time whoever has more drive to succeed will do better in the long run. From my teacher's viewpoint, I think what she was trying to get at was that it is easier to teach someone who has talent(or mileage) than someone starting from scratch.

Gary, thanks for the kind words. I value your presence here in the Xara forum both as a voice of wisdom and as a fellow alum. In all sincerity though, when I was in school, I was pretty average. I mean really middle of the road. There were a lot of people in my term who left me in the dust.

bcire, there is a book I highly recommend, it's called , "The Art Spirit" by Robert Henri. It's very inspirational. You should be able to find it new for less than 10 dollars. It's all text, as it's a compilation of student notes rather than a formal book. But in it are nuggets of wisdom that can help guide you on your path.

For the most part, I think that a subscription to a professional magazine will educate you on what is professional quality work. Surfing websites that offer tutorials will educate you on software. That plus a lot of hours will give you milage. And starting your own collection of images will help train your eye. Clip magazine pages or bar coasters or anything that you like and ask yourself, "Why do I like this?"

I think it might be worthwhile for you to sign up for a community college class or some college at night class. I don't think enrolling into a full on college program is what you need or want. To that end, I was considering enrolling in an illustrator class. It's pretty cheap here where I live now. If anything, I might learn some things and meet new people.

I don't know if I would bother with tutoring from a student. I would say that students themselves are struggling to get better so that might end up being a blind leading the blind kind of situation.

These forums will be around and there will always be people willing to give advice and tips.

Research some designers you admire. I think that will be more educational than being told what was good and what is not in a class.

Lastly, go pick up some surfer or skateboard magazines. They produce some cool graphics(as well as bad graphics) and logos because many of them DON'T know the rules or don't care to follow them.

Good Luck,

[RTK]

This thread is getting a bit long-winded (mostly because of my posts.) Sorry to get Off-Topic in your thread, Eric.

Gary, I didn't give the impression that I thought art school was bad, did I? http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/confused.gif) I was just trying to say that if you don't have real "interest/drive", it doesn't matter what schools, books or tools you have access to.

I also said, that I didn't believe in "born-with talent or a magical IT'" - I think it's hardwork (in school or wherever), in combination with a more simple "interest/drive" that will make it work.

Schools, books, interaction with others (as here at TG) are means to transfer knowledge, inspiration, skills and what have you. Is art school important? Well, that's very easy to see - in any given Communication Arts Magazine 99.99% of the people featured (in articles) have had formal training... It should be a clue... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Obvisouly school is the best and most efficient way to accquire knowledge, and to build up a contact network, make friends and to get exposure etc.

[RTK]

Sheff,

I see that you posted while I was typing up my reply.

Like Gary, I also belive you have always had sketchbooks and drawings going. http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif I would also venture to guess, that in you younger years you have had a person(s) around you who have been supporting and encouraging - or at least someone that planted the seed of motivation/inspiration, to get better?

[Sheff]

Risto,

Regarding sketchbooks, I really don't keep them going. I haven't bought a new one in years. When I have them I'll lose interest in keeping it going. I have a bunch of sketchbooks where only the first few pages are filled. The rest of it is empty. I think I need to change that and get some small Moleskine Volants.

I have been sporatically painting and drawing from life for the past 8 years or so. I've felt like I've hit a wall that I don't know how to get past. I feel as though I'm stuck at this skill level and I don't know what to do to improve. As a result, I haven't drawn much. For the past 8 years, I've maybe painted/drawn from life less than 3 times in a year.

But for close to the last 2 months, I've started going to drawing workshops again. And now when I go, I am focused on enjoying myself, not trying to get better. Trying to get better was more of a 'student' mentality that I'm still trying to shake off. As I get older, I think enjoying myself in my work is more important than being better than the next guy. Mainly because there is always someone better out there.

A friend of mine commented on my frustration with improving; He said that he and a friend bought mountain bikes together at the same time. He was on level 3 courses whereas his friend was on level 5 courses. He asked him, "How are you on these advanced courses and I'm still on these basic ones?" His friend replied, "You only ride once a week." That was my buddy's subtle way of saying, "Quit bitching and get some milage."

This friend went through school with me at the same time. In fact, he was co-best man at my wedding. Going through school with him was tough because he was so good and for him it was nearly effortless. Between me and him, I was the guy who had to have drive to get anywhere. However when his drive was on, there was no stopping him. He was one of those guys who left much of the class in the dust.

I think for the most part, I've now gotten out of that competitive mentality, but I can't deny that it was what was helped make me better. And from time to time a little competition is fun(a la the logo therad).

I feel I'm really at a point where I don't so much need to compete on everything. Rather I need to have more fun and not compete so much with myself or other people too much.

I tend to liken everything to dancing. I would much rather watch someone dancing and having fun rather that a great dancer dancing because it was his job.

I hope all this is helpful to someone as now we're so off topic.

Thanks,

[bcire68]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

Glen,

Thanks for your honosty in the review of my work. I think your comments are more than fair. Some of the parts that I don't like about my drawing are, the facets of the apple and (as you mentioned) the way the highlights are affected by them. When I drew it at first I didn't know where the stem would go and I never revisited it to make the changes I needed to. Chalk that one down to inexperience in not wating until I knew where they needed to go and lazyness in not going back to correct my mistake.

I also feel like I cheeted a little bit by making the flower face the audience (for lack of a better word). I feel like I could have added a much greater 3D feel by making the flower face more towards the fruit. Making it face the front was just so much easier at the time.

One of the more difficult things in this particular drawing, was representing the shadows that overlay the fruit (i.e. are not laying flat on the surface of the table). Without a model to draw from it was very difficult to try to understand how the shadows would be affected. I think that I get away with taking a guess mostly because I suggest the distortion of the shadow (and nobody else really knows where it should go either). These guesses I've made are one of those things that I could play with for weeks and still not be entirely happy with. It is this constant trial and error that prompted the original post.

The plum was the easiest of all the fruit to draw. It was simply an oval with a circular fill and clone moved a few pixels off to the left (plus shadows of course).

I was really happy with the way the concave portion of the apple (with the stem) worked out and with the skin and the navel of the orange. (the navel was an afterthought)

I was also pretty happy with the lace which was just 3 interlocking circles that I grouped and used to create a brush. Of course I had to change the line into a shape and slice off the ends to make it go to the edges of the drawing.

All in all I'm pretty happy with it. Thanks for the suggestions. Anybody want to give me some tips on how to make it better I would appricate it.

Cheers,
Eric