CMYK Export

[Klaus Nordby]

Fedor: " Xara EPS contain good CMYK gradient. (tested by Photoshop)."

Fedor my fine friend, I will publish my testing procedure for EPS later today - which very clearly shows the opposite result.

K
www.klausnordby.com/xara (big how-to article)
www.xaraxone.com/FeaturedArt/kn/ (I was the first-ever featured artist in the Xone)
www.graphics.com (columnist, "The I of The Perceiver")

[Klaus Nordby]

Fedor, please just ignore Jens. He's just a crude crank, with a totally irrational anti-Adobe mentality. He's an excellent industrial designer, but all his graphic design work is third-rate, as is his understanding of pre-press issues.

I agree that Distiller is a complex beast, which might very well introduce curious variables into the equation, so I'm dropping Distiller and PDF.

Here is what I did today, with brand-new files so they would not be "contaminated" by my earlier results:

1st test:
. Make some rectangles with _flat_ CMYK colors in Xara X, of varying percentages.
. Export as "Xara X EPS"
. Open the EPS with Illustrator 10. It opens just fine, in CMYK space, with all the right CMYK values.
. Open the EPS with Photoshop 7 as CMYK. It rasterizes just fine, all CMYK values are in place.

2nd test:
. Now add just one rectangle to that previous XX file, with a _gradient_ CMYK color. The start color is 50% Cyan, the ending color is 50% Black. Note: a gradient towards Black-only is important!
. Export as "Xara X EPS"
. Open the EPS with Illustrator 10. It opens wih the error "mixed color space" - you now have to choose to force it into RGB or CMYK. When forced into CMYK, the gradient is no longer towards Black, but a CMYK-mixed neutral (mixed by Illu's color seps settings).
. Open the EPS with Photoshop 7 as CMYK. It rasterizes, with all the _flat_ CMYK values being correct - but, exactly as in Illu., the gradient is no longer towards Black, but a CMYK-mixed neutral (mixed by PS's color seps settings).

3rd test:
. Make a new file with one rectangle with a _gradient_ CMYK color in Xara X. The start color is 50% Cyan, the ending color is 50% Black.
. Export as "Xara X EPS"
. Open the EPS with Illustrator 10. It opens just fine without any error - but right into RGB space!

So again: ALL this evidence points to that the gradients from XX EPS are defined in RGB. While Jens and his printers obviously don't understand the separation problems this entails, I hope you do, Fedor!

As for the argument that "only a Linotronic printer is proof, since software can have bugs" - nonsense. The Linotronic isn't simply a mechanical machine, but uses bloody complex software too: the built-in PostScript interpreter. This PostScript interpreter is Adobe software. And it's a pretty safe bet that the core PS interpreter which Adobe sells for RIPs is also being used in Photoshop and Illustrator. So in logic there is no reason to prefer the "correctness" of the external RIP software over that which is built into Photoshop and Illustrator. So the software testing procedure I describe above is just as sound as outputting to a RIP.

I have in fact a HP LaserJet 4MP printer with PostScript Level 2 here on my desk, so I could easily test separations on that as well - but it just is not necessary: no testing with that or any other PS printer could wipe the above results out of existence.

K
www.klausnordby.com/xara (big how-to article)
www.xaraxone.com/FeaturedArt/kn/ (I was the first-ever featured artist in the Xone)
www.graphics.com (columnist, "The I of The Perceiver")

[Klaus Nordby]

Of course, there is one way of exporting reliable, industry-standard CMYK files out of XX: the AI export. Both flat and gradient colors export with all CMYK values intact.

But:

The format of AI used by XX is version 7.0 - which doesn't support transparency. So all transparent objects in the XX job becomes opaque, and therefore very many jobs become garbled.

This is "old news" for most of us, I guess.

But I just noticed right now that if you have more color stops in a gradient than the start-end stops, the CMYK export does _not_ work: Illustrator detects a RGB/CMYK conflict on opening the file, and opening as CMYK does not retain the colors you originally specified. Since multi-stop CMYK gradients _is_ supported by the AI 7.0 format, this problem very likely originates with XX's implementation of the AI 7.0 export.

So I dearly hope Xara will update the Illustrator export filter for XX2 to a more recent version - which supports transparency and multi-stop gradients. I often start jobs in XX and finish them in AI, so a smoother work flow would be much appreciated!

K
www.klausnordby.com/xara (big how-to article)
www.xaraxone.com/FeaturedArt/kn/ (I was the first-ever featured artist in the Xone)
www.graphics.com (columnist, "The I of The Perceiver")

[Klaus Nordby]

Here is my XAR test file. It has CMYK-defined:

. flat tints
. gradients
. multi-color gradients

The gray color is everywhere defined as 50% Black. This is a 100% pure CMYK file, with no other color spaces - according to Xara X.

Whoever has a semi-scientific mind may now experiment with exporting these colors from XX as "Xara EPS" and vary the relevant variables: removing the two types of gradients and/or exporting just the gradients.

My results keep being constant: the flat tints always stay CMYK in the EPS, whereas the gradients always become RGB in the EPS - as determined by the values I get in the latest versions of Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat and InDesign. In other words, by the programs which are the standard-bearers of PostScript production - because they are all made by the inventors and patent holders of the PostScript language. No other programs really _matter_ when it comes to pre-press issues.

Believe me, I would dearly love to get reliable CMYK files out of Xara X! But absolutely all my tests so far tell me that this is just impossible - except with flat tints.

If anyone can prove me wrong - using my attached file as the example - I welcome it.

K
www.klausnordby.com/xara (big how-to article)
www.xaraxone.com/FeaturedArt/kn/ (I was the first-ever featured artist in the Xone)
www.graphics.com (columnist, "The I of The Perceiver")

[Klaus Nordby]

Here is my XAR test file - NEW file, slightly improved: the flat tints now blend with 50% Black instead of white, which I though perhaps_might_ matter (and it also makes the chart more "symmetrical" for the sake of comparison).

But it didn't: I get the same troubles with RGB/CMYK, etc., as before. Still, those who want to test along with me are urged to use this new XAR file.

K
www.klausnordby.com/xara (big how-to article)
www.xaraxone.com/FeaturedArt/kn/ (I was the first-ever featured artist in the Xone)
www.graphics.com (columnist, "The I of The Perceiver")

[jens g.r. benthien]

here we go - your Xara test chart exported to Xara X *.eps and opened with GhostScript - a true PostScript Interpreter, not an 'Adobe-Wanne-Be-Jack-In-The-Box-Do-It-All-Better' application.

It's flawless as I always said. Of course the GhostScript screenshot below is a bit distorted because of the JPG format, but other than that it is just great in the PS interpreter. BTW you should display it on a 32bit monitor, not on a 24bit laptop screen...

And if you run it on a Linux system (I know you kinky guy in Sweden don't use really professional software), you will be able to generate a full fledged error report - but there are absolutely no errors.

And now please leave us alone, don't steal our precious time any more with your kinky stinky statements. Crawl into the butt of the Adobe company while the rest of us will enjoy the great features of Xara X.

Thanks.

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--

[FAx]

Im use your test file, and greate more simple file. CMYK colors in gradient not correct (RGB). That true.
- Adobe PS engine render absolute wrong.
- GS render more accurate, but wrong too.
- Quite PSAlerter render good, but reconvert from RGB too (Gray composed by CMY).
- Print separate going OK.

What am want:
- Extact transfer CMYK values.
- Correct Black Generation (K:50 != C:18, M:30, Y:40, K:19)

I think, no way to greate normal CMYK EPS from XaraX now. Ehhhh...... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Don`t worry, im know how is Jens. He is design-extremist. : ) He post sample image (as argument of true) with visible color difference.. LOL!

So!, FAx
www.artin.ru | fax@goody.ru | icq 39779414
www.livejournal.com/users/faxenoff

[jens g.r. benthien]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Don`t worry, im know how is Jens. He is design-extremist. : ) He post sample image (as argument of true) with visible color difference.. LOL! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You seem to have an extremely short memory: I informed you that the post is a JPEG and that you should analyse the eps with GhostScript on a 32bit screen. As you should know a jpg can NOT resemble the 32bit color space.

I guess sooner or later you will suffocate from your own laughter - when you realize that a professional like you've claimed you are didn't understand the difference between a 24bit and a 32bit colorspace.

Sad story with you guys. Spending so much effort to talk Xara X into a bad reputation. Hey, the extremely professional approach from Klaus to conduct the tests on an ink jet printer tells everybody the truth about you guys... go back into the forests to carve wood for printing or use potatoes to print your stuff, but please leave us alone with your bulls..t as long as you think Adobe Photoshop or Illustrator is a RIP or PS Interpreter, ok?

You are totally nuts with your 'well-trained pre-press eyes' - please don't bother us anymore. As if you are the only ones who used to eat printing wisdom spoonwise as a child.

I really wonder why you don't have the job title 'CEO Adobe Corp' with your combined wisdom. I mean Adobe really missed something not hiring you super hair splitter nuts from the forests.

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--

[FAx]

Jens, you have no eyes?

Forget 24\32bit! Colors must be equal! If they show uncorrect (24\32 bit), but they be show uncorrect together if colors not have difference!

Open your result EPS\PDF in any application, who can measure colors and check result colors!

Today am send Klaus_test_EPS to my friends in print bureaus for testing on theys RIPs.

What RIP`s can be tested:
Agfa Apogee Taipan
Aurelon Screen Check
Best Color
ColorFLare
Compose PRIntstation
PRO Script
Delta 7
Express RIP
I-Trap
OneRIP
Onyx RIPcenter
PhotoScript
PowerRIP
ProofMaster
TrapWise
Xitron
Quite PSAlerter - test failed (Wrong CMYK.)

So!, FAx
www.artin.ru | fax@goody.ru | icq 39779414
www.livejournal.com/users/faxenoff

[Sheff]

arguements between forum members. I must admit that this is the kind of detail that folks at Xara need to see in order to improve their product. I like seeing tests and results.

In all fairness to Xara, AI7 format was all that existed when XX came out. And it's really unfair to criticize XX's compatibility issues with PS7 and AI 10+ now. Adobe has worked on improving their products while Xara has remained unchanged. Arguing about which product is superior is pointless.

Pointing out exactly where discrepancies lie and sharing workarounds is extremely helpful to everyone. I welcome any and all observation and experiments.

We all must be fairly adept at getting results from Xara in its current state or we wouldn't keep having these discussions.

Hopefully Xara will fix this issue to our satisfaction.

Sheffield Abella
www.sheff.com