Thanks for all the replies people. Replies to various points.
I won't reply to jens g.r. benthien specifically anymore, as the tone and aggression is quite clear. English being the second language or not, he's still making racial slurs (amongst other things). The only point I will raise, in case anyone reads things in his posts and worries, is that no topics are not being closed—they’re being moved.
As stratocast said, "he implementation of an "Off Topic" section is useful and hardly a revolutionary concept for a forum like this". I don't think I know of messageboards without them really. The difference is that TalkGraphics.com has never been given that opportunity, so there are habits that have been formed and people 'made do'. But now there are better options, IMHO. I'm not expecting change overnight, and this isn't now some cull of anything off-topic, people won't be banned or anything else so silly. But there's always someone who brings up the "free world/free speech" and talks like they are persecuted. As my posts before indicated, I was encouraging posts in off-topic so that it can start being used. There's no need to feel the Xara X forum is the only outlet now, there are better options. You're still the same people, posting the same things... just in a different subsection. Jens' own website has different sections. One for logos, one for 'about us' etc. It's totally the same for a messageboard, everything has a home but it’s still the same community.
stratocast also said: "BTW, shouldn't you have posted this in "Announcements, questions & suggestions section"????". Yes... but as the complaint started regarding topic moves, I decided to leave it here (for now). But again, this makes my point for me. Does a casual Xara X user want to see a user making complaints? No, that's what a specific forum is for.
Ivan wrote: "I had a similar impression about administration in the 3D forum recently. One of the most dynamic Moderator had left this forum and deleted all the topics he had posted before. I asked two times on the forum what had happened and only the second time the administrator replied all those topics were probably moved, beeing OT. I was also pointed to a link which had nothing to do with what I was asking about." I don't know who spoke to you, or the situation there... so I can't really comment. But it's a shame if the moderator removed their posts... I don't think they should do that, but if they have the damage is done. The move was not in relation to any changes I've done recently.
Ivan also wrote (and RAMWolff pointed out): "I think an OT forum isn't a bad solution, but it would be imperative to work like it was done at this link here on another forum. As you saw, a copy of the moved topic stays at its original place ..." I completely agree 100% with you on this. But the messageboard (stupidly) doesn't support this. So at first I just moved the topic, which I felt was bad as then no one knows what happened to it then. So I had to take the inefficient steps of copying it, then posting a message in the old thread then closing it. I am hoping that moving to the new system will allow us to move topics properly. If they don't, they will hear from my strongly. http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Ivan also wrote: "I agree also about good manners, but there are also questions of subtlities there ! Before changing anything so important on a forum (like AntonyF did it) that would be important and respectuous to previously ask their opinion to the users. Sometimes very good ideas can emerge from a dialog. For me a long experience isn't enough to justify an unilateral decision. Each community is different from another." Well I did, as I said, speak to various people anyway because I didn't want to seem like I was barging in. Gary was the very first person I contacted before I changed anything. But this is going to be an evolutionary thing; I've spoken to the moderators at least once (Gary more so) and I will be increasing contact with them in the future. Community members' feedback is everything, but ironically I found there was no one to ask anybody. I also wanted to post about the board downtime, but there was no where to post. So these events spurred some of the changes. Hence there's now an announcements and feedback forum. So changes can be discussed and ideas can be given. So I find it funny that as part of the changes, a process has been put into place to gain feedback, but I'm being accused of not doing listening.
joroho, thanks for your comments.
JonR wrote: "Natural conversation tends to wander from one topic to the next. One thought brings out another which brings out another. If you look at any of the longer responce posts they tend to wander from the original posting quite a bit." Absolutely, it's a natural progression with messageboards. I think this is the time when moderators make the call. If it goes completely off-topic then maybe some action is needed. But on the whole, I personally tend to edit very lightly on straying posts. I'm hoping the new system will allow thread splitting. This allows a section to be farmed off into its own topic if it warrants it. But again, my moderators at my other communities don't use it much. Very light moderation is always the best. But it is up to the moderators to make these choices... which leads me to a point about moderators.
Some moderators have gone off... which is understandable, everyone has lives and being a moderator is an often thankless task. But the moderators here at TG I feel (and have had feedback to this extent) have had no boundaries, they don't know what's officially allowed, what's officially not etc. So this is why I'll be working with the moderators over the coming months on various issues. Firstly we'll get a structure going (you can call them rules, that'll scare people like Jens). Basically these rules won't be any different to what's going on now. But it will just specifically state the dos and don’ts, so if someone does come in and upset the community we have clear guidelines on what to do. And problem makers do occur, and on Gary's feedback a new user now need a valid address to subscribe to the community (more feedback from people in the know, then changes made accordingly for the better).
Some new moderators will also be joining. And we should hopefully be having some more new forums too (these will be decided from a combination of moderator feedback and, you've guessed it, opinions of the members via polls and discussion in the announcements and feedback forum).
We'll be having the new system soon, which will be very much like you see the messageboard now, but is still being developed which will hopefully lead to new features.
And then there's any other benefits or improvements we make in the future. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what we can all achieve. This is everyone’s community, so anyone can bring up ideas (and hey, we have a forum for it!)
I will just make one final point about the off-topic thing which is a big factor of all this. I will speak to mods more about this issue, but I still firmly believe in a dedicated forum for it, it's conducive to any good community. We could merge every forum on this messageboard, but we don’t. People like Jens don’t complain about the Xara gallery forum, or the Menu Maker forum, so I don’t see why off-topic should be any different. It feels different, and strange at first, I know, but doesn’t everything!
But, an important point: with the new system, we will have certain limitations on the number of posts. Some will have to be archived or deleted after a while. Now, the division of forums is imperative for moves such as this.
When it comes down to it, do we delete six-month old off-topic posts, or six-month old Xara X posts? Really, it's a no brainer. The Xara X forum is an absolute wealth of brains and good information. I used to read the Xara X forum before I even registered here. I used to use CorelXARA before I even worked for Xara! I have a real interest, and I totally believe in this forum and its worth and I feel it’s probably the most important around here.
We really don’t want to be in a position to have to delete portions of the Xara X forum—losing valuable Xara X posts—while space in the forum is being taken up by off-topic posts which are saved purely because they were posted more recently.
I hope people can see that there are always many factors that lead to any decision (even if they’re not apparent to everyone).
I look forward to working with you all on TG now and in the future.
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I'd start a revolution, if I could get up in the morning.
I'd start a revolution, if I could get up in the morning.
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