Illustration software?

[rpc9943]

Hey all.

I'm in love with xara for illustration purposes, specifically it's line drawing/smoothing/vectors. So awesome. Here's the thing though, lots of people are saying there's better workflows and stuff for this... I do own artrage - but really would like to keep it vector. I just really would like to know what everyone else would suggest... But it'd have to really rival the beauty of say drawing in xara with a solid line + smoothing + ellipse pressure template + drawing with my tablet...

[angelize]

Xara is my favourite too. I use XDP7 for all kinds of projects. I too have heard lot's of people say other software is better, but it really IMO depends on what you are doing. A large brochure with a large number of pages for example would be a better project for a DTP program like Serif or In design. But for Illustration, If Xara works for you and you are happy with it I say stick with it.

[handrawn]

Hi Ron - thanks for opening a new thread....

So my take:

I draw.

Now on a forum like this that could mean a whole variety of things, but I am using it in its most fundamental sense - I take a blank piece of paper, a pencil, look at something and just draw it. I don't trace, I don't prat around pushing pixels, shifting shapes, nudging nodes or filling a sketchbook full of roughs in pursuit of perfection.

And it is what I do digitally.

Now that sort of drawing is like playing a musical instrument live - as opposed to pushing registers, shifting keys, and nudging tempos in a synth deck or whatever. Lots of practice sure, but 'on the night' I just 'go for it'.

It is very fast, very fluid, and most importantly real-time.
Many digital programs are not geared up for this, there is a small but discernible lag between tablet action and screen [re]draw that makes the process difficult - worse some do not even render the line until you have finished the stroke!

Having used both I prefer raster - as it happens Phil has just given one reason for this in another thread of yours - again, screen redraw. Because vector objects are defined mathematically they have to be recalculated at every change which makes it difficult with fast freehand work. [EDIT: in pressure tablet mode]

In the past raster did mean issues with image resolution, but things have got a whole load better these past few years, thanks to faster processors and OS's, lots more memory, larger affordable monitors, openGL rendering.... [and as Phil said faster machine/graphics speeds also help with vector too, up to a point].

As you can imagine, automatic line smoothing and predefined stroke shapes are not at all what I want for this kind of work.

Except to collectors [I wish], most comic art is ephemeral - today's hot super-hero adventure is tomorrows cat tray liner. If you have the luxury of book publication or you are web only you have leeway, but if you are 'pulp-printing' your work in the traditional DC/Marvel/Manga vein you have to accept it is going to be mostly printed to 'newspaper standard'. So that means putting aside notions of glossy full colour transparency work and learning the ins and outs of tones and the dreaded moiré .

Good then to have a program that 'understands' all of this I would say, such as Manga Studio.

I also use Xara, just as I use Photoshop and SAI, because 'its a fool who thinks having a cow means you don't need a horse' as my Dad used to say... [and I guess if you ever did hitch a cow to a plough you might have seen the wisdom of that... ] - there are always things, eg airbrushing, that another program can do more effectively.

Not sure how helpful all this is - but I did promise to elaborate, and so I have...

[rpc9943]

Well I just find all of this interesting. I look at the manga studio galleries and wow, right? I guess these artists just know how to handle the brush, because I can only get similar results using xara... I am mostly a musician but lately I've been becoming fond of just sketching. I prefer vector and xara so far over anything raster because of the scaling, undo, line pushing... Things like that. I'm not doing something for the industry or anything- just a simple passion of mine. I mean, I also am a graphic designer as a full time job, so it might help to brush up on my sketching abilities.

So yeah, I've checked out manga studio, and it's price is SO LOW right now so I've been really giving it a shot, but it seems about the same as artrage than xara. I thought manga studio would be completely vector for some reason... Maybe I am not approaching it properly or something, but it seems to me in functionality compared to xara as it feels very antiquated. Hmmm... Well enlighten me on precisely what manga studio does that is significant, and would spur me to trying out this trial some more?

[handrawn]

Some technical and historical stuff:

in Manga Studio: on a 1-bit layer you can draw in one colour only, say black but it doesn't have to be, and on a 2-bit layer you have just two colours available to draw with

on a Xara layer [24bit] you have the full 'True Colour range' of colours available to draw with which is well over 16 million colours

the bit size refers to the amount of storage/memory that is used to hold the colour information

the latest version of manga studio has introduced 32-bit layers which means you can have your millions of colours and define a level of transparency for each colour as an attribute - xara doesn't actually do this; because its layers are 24-bit, xara colours are always opaque [witness the xara fill tool goes from colour to white] - it 'gets round' this very successfully by having a separate transparency tool that 'overlays' transparency and it's a really great tool, but there are advantages to the 32-bit approach [which incidentally is used by inkscape]
the latest version of manga studio also introduced vector layers - they are intended for 'inking' though I prefer to stay with raster for this - AFAIK you cannot export in vector format

why the 1 & 2-bit layers? - for speed and response - and because manga and other comic art that is mass-produced cheaply was, and still is, largely printed in black and white [and/or monchrome] - the cheapest form of printing is solid black [or other colour] only, and to achieve 'greys' you use a tone of solid black dots just like a newspaper, the wider spaced the dots the lighter the 'grey' - manga studio comes with an impressive range of predefined tones, and because like xara fractal fill they are vector based, it minimises the chances of moire in print [you will still tend to see it on a monitor when you zoom in and out as you do in any other program, xara included, if you use tones]

but of course lots of artists use manga studio who are not producing art for [half]tone printing - the responsiveness for sketching and inking is probably the best I have seen in a program you don't need a mortgage for to buy - however, as you have noticed you do need to be able to use a real-world pencil or pen to get the best out of raster layers, but hey that's only practice

manga studio is very much a layer based program - up to version 3 a typical workflow would be to have each flat colour on it's own layer and then export out to say photoshop to do highlights and stuff [you need the full EX version to export in layers with transparent background - I'm pretty sure the debut version doesn't do this] - now with the 32-bit layer you can do most in the one program if all you need is transparency gradation highlights - airbrushing no, I'd use SAI for that, or photoshop if I had to..

well enough for one post I think - interesting that you use the term 'antiquated' for it's functionality - there are fewer more antiquated functions around in serious programs than xara's custom brush system or mould tool - I'd prefer a combination of 'specialised' and 'don't change what aint broke'....

[rpc9943]

Exactly what I had hoped for, a very comprehensive look into illustration software, particularly xara and manga studio. I'm actually still stuck on xara at the moment, and would be very interested in what you would say makes manga studio brushes better than xaras. I'm familiar with pencil drawing and have used art rage. What makes manga stand out so much to the point that you'd say such things as xaras brush system is antiquated? I'm very interested and matter of fact the more you tell me the closer I may get to getting manga studio. I just simply haven't used any illustration software that matches the smoothness of a 4Px line with ellipse line width at 25% smoothing. .. maybe im being ridiculous. Correct this ignorant crazy artist!

PS. I am a bit urgent about this because looks like ex is on sale for like $75 and I'd like to maybe see some examples dealing with the brushes. Seems like my tinkering with the trial version hasn't been anywhere close to discovering any real resolution to my questions. From what you've been saying, I'm damn sure I'm missing out on something here.

[handrawn]

ok first thing - on sale for $75 dollars or not, never rush into buying anything you are not sure of..

I'd recommend you first try SAI, which you can get as a 31 day trial - if you like that you might like Manga Studio, if you really like it you might not need Manga Studio at all unless you are creating comic-books

http://www.systemax.jp/en/sai/

in SAI 'smoothing' is called 'stabilizing'
there is a drop down menu at the top for this which gives levels of smoothing from 0-15 [normal line 'smoothing'] and then S1-S7 [special line 'smoothing']
the special line smoothing introduces 'inertia' into the stroke as you draw it, and thickness is not just dependant upon pressure but also speed, so if you 'flick' fast at the end of you stroke for example you get a wonderfully tapered finish, just like a rigger [signpainter] brush in real life, which was always a cartoon favourite
the secret with these is to keep going at a constant speed [not too fast] varying pressure as you go, and flick as necessary.. the constant speed is important - this mimics how a real brush would be used [though of course once you get the hang of it you can start breaking the 'rules' quite happily, but first get it 'right' or you may miss the point ]

note I deliberately said xara custom brush system was antiquated - there is nothing at all wrong with the default constant and stroke shape brush variants as vector brushes - and, I guess if they suit you, the natural media brushes as supplied are ok, but if you try to use them with different colours or make you own variants you end up jumping through hoops that should have been laid to rest years ago, the world has moved on

at the end of the day if you are happy with xara stick with it, that's all that matters

manga studio and SAI brushes are not 'better' than xara brushes - they just suit me better, maybe because I grew up with the ones you hold in your hand...

[Albacore]

Steve has made one suggestion that works for him and many more and others could have joined this thread and said you should try Illustator, Inkscape or PhotoShop, I could go on. What I say is you find a programme which you are comfortable with, give as many of them a tryas you can, as it maybe vector or it could be bitmap, you can always uninstall. I would use Xara all the time if they would improve the brushes as it is quite difficult to get a cartoon with lines that look as if it was drawn by a pen/pencil even using a tablet and pen. All of the lines drawn in Xara look too clean they all have the look as if they were drawn by a computer. Have a look on You Tube for either Zeb or Bob Hahn at doing cartoons in Xara as they make it look easy, here is a link for Bob's first tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQKIbTIEAwQ

If you do a bit a of research on the net you might find that Illustrator gets the vote for the best illustration software where it is a straight cartoon with no animation but I have also read of many people who use Corel's Painter which is a bitmap programme for their cartooning. When it comes to animation the Manga or Toon Boon must be there and again it is all to do with how comfortable you are with using the software and how you start whither it is a handrawn sketch which you import or you work straight from the screen. I said at the start I would use Xara if they sorted out the brushes but as they have not I use Illustator which has excellent brushes from a vector programme to do my 2D cartooning as well as it has Live Trace & Live Paint to quicken up the work flow.