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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Default CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    Dear Xara (people from Xara really do actually read this, right?),

    I know this has been brought-up and whined about before, but, seriously, folks...

    ...it really is time, at long last, for Xara Web Designer (and the web design capabilities of Designer Pro) to be able to easily (and that's the operative word, here: easily) accommodate the integration of a true content management system (CMS), or a blog or shopping cart which similarly integrates.

    Yes, I know about the tweak which allows for dynamic page sizing, but that's a really crude and tedious workaround. Don't get me wrong: The guy who wrote it did a great job...

    ...but he really shouldn't have had to. CMSs (and CMS-similar -- in terms of integration technique -- blogs and shopping carts) are no longer curiosities or optional. No serious (and that's the operative word: serious) web designer can get through a week, anymore, without the client asking if s/he can make content (as opposed to design) updates himself or herself, without engaging the services of the designer (likely for a fee).

    And this is not a new thing. I mean... c'mon... CMSs (and CMS-similar blogs and shopping carts) have been around a long time, now; they've become commonplace. No one who's doing serious web sites for clients which are more than just multipage electronic brochures, in effect, is able to seriously use Xara's web design products because there's no easy way to code the page so that it dynamically resizes, vertically, to accommodate whatever variable-sized content is put onto the page via the CMS (or blog or shopping cart).

    There are also issues with easily embedding the CMS's code into Xara's finished HTML, but that problem at least feels conquerable somehow compared with the problem of not easily being able to allow pages to dynamically vertically resize, based on content.

    While it may not have been true back during version 5 days, it is absolutely and incontrovertibly true now that no WYSIWYG HTML editor which cannot accommodate vertically dynamically resizable pages (so that pages will vertically resize based on CMS-inserted (or blog or cart inserted) content) is ultimately useful...

    ...not matter how cool are all its other features.

    I realize it's all about Xara's accurate-to-the-pixel placement of things on the page; but something, somehow, has got to change. It just has to. It's finally time. It really is.

    First, there needs to be some kind of easy configuration setting whereby the vertical length of the page will dynamically resize based on whatever content is in it; and, second, there needs to be an easy way to insert (maybe through a dialog or something) the tags/codes which tell the CMS (or blog, or cart) where to display its content on the page.

    If Xara's products would do that, on top of what they already do, they would, indeed, be a force with which to be reckoned among WYSIWYG web design products.

    Of course, no matter what, as long as Xara generates the kind of code that it does, with all the extra coding that it needs to place things just so, HTML purists will always hate it; and will cite it as one of the worst examples of the kind of typically bloated and unnecessarily complex code which WYSIWYG editors tend to generate. Xara will never make those guys happy.

    But that's okay. As long as the site looks good, and gets the job done, and does okay in search engines, and is fast-painting on the screen, the client doesn't care. And neither should the designer. To heck with those guys, on that score.

    But the inability of easily inserting the code necessary to accommodate CMSs (and blogs and carts which are technically, in terms of how they're coded into the page, CMS-like) is fast becoming a deal breaker. It really is.

    I hope -- nay, pray -- that Xara will take this problem VERY seriously; and will come out with a version 7.5 or 8.0 which finally, at long last, will easily allow the two things which pretty much all the CMSs need, and that's pages which dynamically vertically resize, based on the amount of content; and, also, an easy way to embed the code into the right places on the pages which tell the CMS (or blog, or cart) where to place content.

    Those two things are absolutely "must have" features... at least now, finally, these days.

    Please, Xara... please... finally... get this fixed.

    Please. I implore you.


    - HarpGuy

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Bracknell, UK
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    8,659

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    HarpGuy, I'm sure Xara knows that CMS integration is important, but they have a big problem with that because their WYSIWYG idea is built around fidelity of the design at design time and is not built to adapt to changing content. It may be a deal-breaker for some, but for the vast majority of independent and hobbyist web developers it is a viable and very capable solution.

    Don't imagine that you are the only person on the list to understand the importance of CMS to modern web design, but do understand that the fundemental technology upon which Xara builds it's web pages (WYSIWYG layout) is at odds with unspecified content. No doubt you are aware of other web development systems that use templates to accommodate CMS functionality and don't attempt the WYSIWYG trick that Xara does so well.

    Xara does allow modest CMS integration by allowing placeholders to include content that can be generated outside of Xara with raw HTML. Effectively, Xara delegates the control of areas of the web page to the developer.

    You can only "fix" something that's broken and Xara isn't broken. It does a great job, but it doesn't do everything, nor does anything else.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Kildare, Ireland
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    906

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    I released a cms a short while ago that works with web pages designed in Xara. Here's an example website I actually just put live for a client yesterday http://www.rosannacrothers.com/ - it's designed and published from Xara into the cms and it has shopping cart functionality and the client can log in and update the content on the pages themselves.

    Defining the dynamic content area is easy, just one placeholder with one tag {page_content}
    XT-CMS - a self-hosted CMS for Xara Designers - Xara + CMS Demo with blog & ecommerce shopping cart system.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Placitas, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    41,486

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    Welcome to TalkGraphics HarpGuy

    I can see why you call yourself HarpGuy.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    SF Bay area
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    15

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    Quote Originally Posted by xtom View Post
    I released a cms a short while ago that works with web pages designed in Xara. Here's an example website I actually just put live for a client yesterday http://www.rosannacrothers.com/ - it's designed and published from Xara into the cms and it has shopping cart functionality and the client can log in and update the content on the pages themselves.

    Defining the dynamic content area is easy, just one placeholder with one tag {page_content}
    Yes, xtom, I read about your new CMS in another thread. I'm sure it's nice -- and please don't be offended by this -- but there are freeware and open source CMS packages out there which easily outperform/out-feature it. Moreover, to limit the Xara user to just one CMS that will work with it, and for which s/he must pay handsomely, to boot, is almost as big a problem as that Xara's products don't easily allow CMS integration in the first place.

    That said, please do not mistake my academic criticism as being unappreciative of your product. Something like it is long overdue, and my hat's off to you for creating it.

    However, if you really delve deeply into the world of CMS systems out there; and which ones are popular and which ones aren't; and which features are most desirable, and which tend not to matter alll that much (and the vast differences of opinion about such things); and the vast differences of need in terms of ability to pay versus freeware/open source...

    ...you'll agree, I believe (or at least hope), that it's critically-important that the Xara user has choices... including and especially choices from among the freeware/open-source CMS systems out there. The paradigm of the CMS having to process, in effect, the Xara-generated page so that it can be brought in to the CMS's fold (so that, in essence, the vertical resizing problem may be remediated) is exactly backwards (though, given Xara's limitations in this area, I realize that that was just about the only way you could do it, xtom... so, believe me, I'm finding no fault in this case). Rather, the paradigm should be that easily placing the tag or placeholder which specifies the location of CMS content (or the two tags which specify its beginning and end, if the CMS requires it), and the dynamic vertical resizing necessary to accommodate the variable length of said content, should be something built right in to the WYSIWYG editor... in this case, either Xara Web Designer or Xara Designer Pro, whichever happens to be the case. The CMS should simply allow the Xara-generated template page to be copied into its templates folder, as is, without any "processing" to force said page into fundamental compliance with the CMS.

    If Xara products did that, then its users would have some real choices of CMS systems... choices from among both fee-based/commercial products, as well as freeware/open-source ones; and that's as it should be.

    Xara is, in fact, really missing an opportunity in all this, in my opinion. Just ask anyone who has struggled with the ridiculousness of the "Smarty" template engine, for example. They would, I'll bet, just love to use a powerful design tool such as Xara Web Designer which so easily converts good design into web pages, wherein they could simply put the placeholder tags -- either just beginning tags, or beginning and also ending tags, if the CMS requires same -- wherever they want in a given area of a web page where dynamic CMS-inserted content is to appear; and then they can simply specify, in said area's individual properties, that it can dynamically vertically resize with the amount of said content. I'll bet their likes would much prefer something like that over what they must do in order to use the godawful "Smarty" template engine... just to name one of several equally godawful such tools out there.

    Your XT-CMS, xtom, is good in that sense. From your XT-CMS site: "There's no strict template system to follow, you just design or code your page how would normally do it and then add some simple tags to specify where you want the dynamic content served by the cms to appear. No need for header files, footer files etc. etc. (unless you want to!) just design your page as a normal static page and the cms can use it as a page template to serve dynamic content."

    Bravo! That's exactly the way it should be. But too much of why it works with Xara is happening in your product, instead of Xara's; hence, Xara doesn't well work with your competitors' products... and that's not good (though it's obviously potentially good for you, of course... and I fault you not, for it, by the way). [grin]

    One kind of CMS which is gaining in popularity (though to the chagrin of CMS purists) is edit-in-place interfaces... wherein the person wanting to change something on a web page goes straight to an editable (in a truly WYSIWYG way) version of it and edits the content right there on the page, rather than going into some file-manager-style interface, selecting the page, and then having a WYSIWYG editor interface appear where only the specific content from the specific part of the page is editable, out of context, without being able to see, as it's edited, how the overall page will look on account of the change. The latter is, in fact, how CMSs have long been; but the newer edit-in-place paradigm is making it so that one may more easily both make the edits, and see their net effect, in realtime, as they do it. For my money, that's the better way; though I agree that few tools do it properly, so I tend to agree that the old way, for the moment, is still a little better. But edit-in-place, as well as heavily Ajax-influenced derivatives thereof (imagine Concrete5, but with truly edit-in-place capabilties), are coming (actually, they're here, but are still a little rough around the edges) and will soon be the norm.

    In any case, until/unless Xara builds-in to its products the simple ability to precisely place beginning (or both beginning and ending) content placeholder tags into whatever parts of a Xara-generated page they wish; and then, also, specify that the part (or all) of the page wherein said tags are placed is dynamically vertically resizable, then I fear it will not be taken as seriously by as many as it both could and deserves.

    I will say, xtom, that I do like your work. Keep it up! And I hope XT-CMS is very successful for you.


    - HarpGuy

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    SF Bay area
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    15

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    Quote Originally Posted by gwpriester View Post
    Welcome to TalkGraphics HarpGuy
    Thank you for the welcome. Actually, I signed-up a year ago and have been a bit of a lurker (though, admittedly, not a very active one). I had decided against getting too serious about previous versions, but version 7 has me investigating again. This CMS issue has always been really vexing to me; and I fear that not only that it still exists in version 7, but also that no one seems to think it's important, may continue to keep me from embracing the product...

    ...which would be a pity because the product is, otherwise, really something.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwpriester View Post
    I can see why you call yourself HarpGuy.
    I'm trying to figure-out if I should be offended. Is it because of my avatar, or that you think I'm "harping" on this subject? Obviously, one's offensive, and the other isn't; and if it's the one that's offensive, I'm not upset or anything, but if that's the one that was meant, then it's certainly a cogent example of how few folks around here think this terribly important subject actually is.

    Of course, I choose to believe you meant the unoffensive one. [grin]


    - HarpGuy
    Last edited by HarpGuy; 02 October 2011 at 06:42 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Kildare, Ireland
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    906

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    Rather, the paradigm should be that easily placing the tag or placeholder which specifies the location of CMS content (or the two tags which specify its beginning and end, if the CMS requires it), and the dynamic vertical resizing necessary to accommodate the variable length of said content, should be something built right in to the WYSIWYG editor...

    until/unless Xara builds-in to its products the simple ability to precisely place beginning (or both beginning and ending) content placeholder tags into whatever parts of a Xara-generated page they wish; and then, also, specify that the part (or all) of the page wherein said tags are placed is dynamically vertically resizable, then I fear it will not be taken as seriously by as many as it both could and deserves.
    Really I think this ability is already there, at least for the most part. You can define the start of dynamic content using a placeholder and in the case of my cms using just one simple tag. Using this method the position and width of the dynamic area is set and the height/length of the dynamic area is fluid/open to accommodate as much content that you want to display vertically. If you want the page to stretch/resize vertically you do still need to use the dynamic page tweak but it actually works pretty well if done right and to the end user there is no significant difference. You can also avoid using the tweak by having different length page templates for pages with more or less content. If you wanted to restrict the height of dynamic content areas to a set size with or without scrollbars you can use a tiny bit of css in the placeholder too.


    The CMS should simply allow the Xara-generated template page to be copied into its templates folder, as is, without any "processing" to force said page into fundamental compliance with the CMS.
    Again this is pretty much the case with my cms, you just publish the website exactly as it is into the theme folder. The cms does process the pages automatically but for the designer there's no extra work required at this stage.

    I understand where you're coming from though, you want Xara to export web pages that easily work with other content management systems so that users have a better choice. I completely agree that choice is a good thing, but I think the problem is that each content management system handles things differently and their template system will probably vary from cms to cms. For any wysiwg software to export code that works with all or even some of these cms's I imagine it would be a lot of work to implement and to keep constantly up to date. I know you and others might feel differently but personally I don't think it would be a good investment of time or the responsibility for the wysiwyg program to try and export pages that works with cms x,y,z but rather I think it makes more sense for cms x,y,z to add support or importers that work with pages exported from the wysiwyg software. If you have a favorite cms it might be better trying to convince the developers to support your favorite design software, rather than the other way around, this way Xara and other design programs can focus their time on adding better design tools and features etc. Of course I respect your post and if Xara do improve their software for easier/better integration with other cms's then that's a good thing!
    XT-CMS - a self-hosted CMS for Xara Designers - Xara + CMS Demo with blog & ecommerce shopping cart system.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    UK
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    21,283

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    Quote Originally Posted by pauland View Post
    You can only "fix" something that's broken and Xara isn't broken. It does a great job, but it doesn't do everything, nor does anything else.
    it does what it says on the tin, agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by xtom View Post
    I released a cms a short while ago that works with web pages designed in Xara.
    which is just the sort of activity that everyone appreciates

    Quote Originally Posted by HarpGuy View Post
    Xara is, in fact, really missing an opportunity in all this, in my opinion.
    I am sure they know what they are doing
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...

  9. #9

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    Solution: Disable clipping for site project and use positioning and z-index. I've done it with WP API. It's pretty simply with placeholders.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    13

    Default Re: CMS, blog and shopping cart integration

    Do you think it's possible to use Google's Checkout Shopping Cart by pasting the code they provide into placeholders?

 

 

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