Xara WebStyle 2 Just Released

[jens g.r. benthien]

Gary, I truly understand the concept of 'free' content, 'free' everything - though I would ** LOVE ** and prefer to pay for it.

What I consider an offence is the plain fact that XARA struggles to broaden it's user/customer base. Great, but this is the wrong way.

Just imagine this worst case scenario (and believe me, I've been through this several times in similar situations):

I contact a client to offer my design service. In the second meeting he's going to ask: just curios, which application do you use? My answer: Xara. Silence for 2 minutes. Then: OK, I've seen WebStyle, so you want to tell me to pay THAT MUCH for your services if I can get if with an app for just $ 69? Come on, gimme a break. WebStyle doesn't require any skills, so why in this world should we honor your services...

It's what I call the appreciation of value, which doesn't stop at the developer's door...

The PR, the wording is a slap into the face of professionals who have to feed their families with their job and profession - and yes, some of us DO have small customers, they have to because they have to survive. Remember that not every designer is in the lucky position to work for Sony of America, DaimlerChrysler, Boing, GM, or any other global corp.

Is there a 'quick dentist' kit on the market? No, because it's required that you need a certain kind of education and a certain level of experience. But every asshole can call himself a designer or artist, just because he purchased one of these click-'n-go apps.

Many clients value you on the basis of the apps you are using - we had this thread several weeks ago (Adobe, Macromedia & co...). Xara is not considered to be a professional tool, because it's too cheap. If they would add a price tag of US$ 599, the media would jump on it and claim it to be the challenge for the established corps.

But even worse, now they churn out a product for nobrainers with a lousy PR campaign, promising heaven for accountants, bookkeepers, dentists, stocktraders - you name it.

It's the underlying perception that bothers me: hey dumbass, you don't need to call a designer, we've got the tools for you: cut out the professionals - profits galore (like in international trade: cut out the middleman - you don't need his experience anymore - a biz model that's doomed, but it's too late to step back, because most of the highly specialized companies already folded down).

I just installed two so called 'professional' software packages, just in case a customer should ask which software I'm using - and by no means I will ever mention XARA again - promised! The risk to be valued on the shabby image is too high. I simply don't want to be connected or affiliated to a kids software - see the point? In addition I'm so tired of justifying the tools I'm using...

Something else: I have many excellent (proven and working) ideas how to turn this forum and the XARA sites into highly profitable marketing tools - but no, they are not free.

XARA could easily turn it's web presence into a gold nugget at the end of the rainbow, supplying their customers with orders from all over the world and making a profit on the commission. But what are they doing? Running CHEAP - the ultimate European way of damaging a reputation.

Arts & design galore! Have fun & pls tell XARA to think about repositioning the nobrainer product without slapping their flagship customers into the face. The story goes that some of the old fashioned professionals carry something in them that's called pride.

jens

Before I forget: we had a thread here about image viewers. I sent Kate (XARA marketing) a mail to contact ACD Systems so they can integrate a viewer for XAR files in their apps - they are very successful with their apps, very professional - meaning this could be a real boost and promotion for XARA. Guess what happened: I didn't even get a reply. Arrogance? Blindness to visions? Don't ask me for the reason. Let XARA crawl where they belong - in the kids art market. Seems to be their stone hammered objective.

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://jens.highspeedweb.net

[roman]

I agree that Xara's PR department seems to have very strange ideas. I agree that they are surprisingly putting great ideas into grave and trying to earn easy money. I think that we should worry about XARA and not about ourselves ;-).

Read my previous post, don't you think it would be great to have possibility to make your own templates for this childish tool? I think it would. Pity they put WIZARD into grave together with Flare.

You use Xara because it's the best software you have, even when it's so childish. I don't tell my custormers what software I use, and mostly they really don't care. I always try to talk plain words trying not brainwash customers with desingers slang bafflegab consiting of names of the tools and techinques used.

Many companies use the name of software as a proof of their skill (WE PHOTOSOAP6&ILL9 GEARED, WE GOOD [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img], but good designer shows his portfolio instead. By telling tell your customers that you use the industry standard you will get the majority of paying customers - exactly the same way as Xara PR tries to get with their promotional text about Webstyle2.

Roman

And hey cheer up d/l webstyle and check it... I'm going to do it right now [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] .

[This message was edited by Dmagician on August 22, 2001 at 02:42.]

[Wolfgang]

Hi Jens,

I feel you are being too harsh in your reaction.
Because I don't see any problem in cheapo webdesign-packets at all for us.

We've been talking about prices lately. A customer that won't pay your price won't pay half your price as well. Because he is simply NOT YOUR CUSTOMER.

I hear this every day: "But you can buy <name of webeditor> for <low price> in every megastore. Why would you charge me so much for a webpage ??"

I tell them to the face that I can afford Excel, but that does not make me an accountant.
I also can afford a hammer, but that does not make me a blacksmith.
Or your own example: I can afford a drill, but that does not make me a dentist.

There is ALWAYS somebody cheaper than me. Sometimes FAR cheaper. Still, I get as much jobs as I can handle.

You are selling YOURSELF, not your software. If the customer trusts, that you can do it he will pick you.

And if this customer is a penny-pincher, both of us just won't get it.

You are a far better designer than I am. My main focus is the concept. Marketing if you want.
They can't take that away from me with Webstyler. And they can't take your abilities away with it as well.

There will always be people that go the cheap way. Be Webstyler or not.
Even Adobe tried their luck with ImageStyler two years ago. It's now history.

When I started my company, more than three years ago, I charged a lot less than I charge now.
Those days, two offers out of three came to an order.
Nowadays 1-2 out of five offers are accepted. But I make more turnover than before, and I have the time to deliver much higher quality and better service.
I never can and never want to compete with students, me-too designers and Webstyler-owners.

But most important: Why would you leave the forum because of that ??
Your contributions are very much appreciated and we are all Xara(-X) users, aren't we ??
Let's hush up on - what's the name - and concentrate on XX, like we did before.

Your friend

Wolfgang

P.S.: I remember a saying from a TV-technician when he was asked why the bill was so high:

"One replaced transistor: 2 bucks, knowing which: 50 bucks" [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[Thomas.Sorrill]

Sorry to see your so upset, Jens.

But we really do not see WS2 as infringing or competing with your skills/offerings in any way.

Its target market is truly toward those with no artistic skill whatsoever (or very little, or simply no time). The group is mostly made up of those that want to put their own personal site (or a very small business site) together. In other words, people that are not in the habit of paying someone for design work.

And you really shouldn't be selling yourself on the products you use. A painter doesn't go on and on about the brushes he uses, he simply presents his work and lets it speak for itself. Besides, every company in the market has dabbled in the low end. Adobe with ImageStyler, PageMill, and Photoshop Lite is a good example. And they don't seem particularly hurt from the experience.

And to be point blank honest, we need a lot more product to sell than just Xara X if we want to stay in business and continue development. Granted, Xx is a great product, but it can't pay all of the bills...especially between releases.

Oh, and just a note. I do appreciate the advice on ACD. For your information, Kate averages around 500 emails a day...and is in the middle of product release. Granted, she should have at least dropped a note to you, but please understand that we are all intensely busy at the moment...and Kate, doubly so.

Regards,
Thomas

[gwpriester]

Jay

I am not unsympathetic with what you are saying.

You and I have been in the design and advertising business long enough to see many changes. The most major of these changes was the introduction of "desktop publishing" software. Suddenly every non-trained designer was a designer. And we all groaned when we saw some of the junk people were putting together themselves and proudly showing the world as their creations. (Ugh). But did desktop publishing software put the good designers out of business? Only those who could not adapt to the new way of working.

When my wife and I had our graphic design company in San Francisco, a lot of our bread and butter work went to untrained designers who could underprice us. I cannot say this did not hurt our business for a while.

But as the saying goes, only the strong survive. And if we are good designers, we repackage our services and we survive. We find higher end services and products to offer our clients that they cannot do themselves.

Stock art and photography was a tremendous threat to all illustrators and photographers. Until they realized the potential of selling one image for $100 50 times makes just as much money as selling one image one time for $5,000. And unlike the one time image, multiple use images can be sold over and over and over and over.

Illustrators started putting together collections of images to market only as stock images.

Xara did not invent the market for inexperienced designers. It has been around for 20 years now. They just have the marketing sense not to put all their eggs in one basket. If Xara increases their profitablility by selling more diverse products to more people, Xara X will ultimately be a better product and we will reap the benefits.

As a Xara X user, I do not feel neglected by Xara. They have produced what I honestly feel is the best drawing application available. And now they are looking to expand their market beyond our relatively small group of design professionals and serious non-professional users.

This is just good business.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~garypriester">
burl me to beehives</a>

[eky]

Well said by the responses that it's not the software but what you make of it. There are plenty of "freeware" in addition to the range of software at all price levels. No one will judge a great design as being "cheap" simply because the designer used GIMP (freeware) instead of photoshop. I've seen masterpieces made with crayon on paper as well as on artist who reproduced a Michelangelo on the sidewalk with colored chalk. I can only doodle with crayon and chalk. It's what you can do with your tools, not the tools themselves.

[Mickie]

I agree it's the "output" not the product used. I'd like to think that some of the users of WebStyle will discover that the "output" doesn't quite do enough for them, look for more, and discover the wonderful world of Xara.

Mickie

[joroho]

Jay,

Webstyle is really for people like me: an accountant with very little artistic ability and even less time. I certainly hope you're secure enough in your work that you don't feel threatened by wannabes like me. I've seen your work, it's fantastic! I wish I could dream as well as you draw.

Also, if we were to follow your logic completely through, none of us would ever buy a copy of Xara3D. Instead we should find a more difficult way of creating these stunningly beautiful and easy 3-D effects in XaraX.

Carry on.

.joroho.

[Vectormonkey (formerly, Borlip)]

For what it's worth...

Masque came on the Xara Gallery forum's scene recently with an image of balls made from straw emerging from the ocean, leaving a hole in the water from whence they came. It was absolutely stunning. I knew that I would never, never be able to create such an image.

When he explained how he did it, I was struck by the fact that the actual creation of the image was not as difficult as I had guessed. This doesn't mean that Masque isn't talented. Quite the opposite! He showed great skill in the construction of the image, but his real talent showed up in the composition. His imagination put Xara to use in a way that most people would never have thought of. Xara just made it easier for him to assemble his vision. As far as that goes, so did the bitmaps he used and the PC he used.

If we view new technology as a threat, we miss the point and we miss new opportunity.

~Dave!~

[This message was edited by Ross Macintosh on August 25, 2001 at 14:04.]

[diniel]

I never though a discussion about the graphics software we all use day in, day out, for our everyday work could turn out to be so entertaining !

I'm just going to nip out and get some popcorn. Please, don't stop for me. I'll sneak in at the back, quietly, when I return, so that I can enjoy the rest of the show.