Poll: How many wish XX Pro was a true Page Layout tool?

[davelash]

Dear Charles and the Xara team,

Thanks for participating directly and openly in this forum. And congratulations and thanks for all the hard work in getting XXP out the door.

I've been reading everything on the board about XXP because I thought the announcement of multi-page functionality meant Xara was finally adding DTP capability to the product. Working on that premise and my love of XX, I called XXP a killer app on one thread, only to be sadly corrected on another: http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...ght=multi-page

Is it possible that Xara's history and culture is so defined by vector drawing that it can't see the current user/market landscape? This forum is littered with questions and suggestions from people like myself whose work is partly graphics and partly DTP. Yet all I hear in reply are work-arounds and “maybe someday…” I feel there is a failure at Xara to recognize that DTP is another creative medium with its own process and needs which are separate and distinct from illustration. An example would be the role of thumbnails in early storyboarding.

IMHO, Xara is missing a huge market: the middle market that works with both text and image and values high end results PLUS speed, simplicity, and ease of use. There are a 1000 of us for every pure illustrator. THERE IS NO TOOL ON THE MARKET FOR US!

Allow me to demonstrate with my own work. The absence of an appropriate tool forces me into the following maddening DTP/vector combinations:

Word/Word
Word/Visio
Word/Xara
PagePlus/PagePlus
PagePlus/Visio
PagePlus/Xara

Unless the DTP needs are miniscule, Xara/Xara (even XXP) is a joke…forcing me back to PagePlus/PagePlus or PagePlus/Xara – in both cases, I lose fluidity and creative potential. What I sorely need, and what so many other Xara users are asking for, is simple, yet full-featured, DTP capability added to Xara’s superior vector capabilities. It will be a glorious sunrise on the day that happens!

I hope others will expand and improve on this post.

Thanks for listening,

Dave

[Intbel]

Already there are folks complaining 'cos Xara does not have a text underline function and now you want full blown DtP???

Sure - it would be a great programme if something like Page Plus and Xara combined to produced a definitive Vector Publihing programme.

However, I treat Xara as a drawing programme, to produce images to be imported into my DtP programme.

I don't expect the DtP prog to be a drawing programme and I don't expect Xara to be a DtP programme.

That a combination of both would be cool I agree ...

But then one might ask, if this is so, why doesn't Serif combine Page Plus and Draw Plus as a single programme???

[haakoo]

simplicity is the key

alltough the screen gets bigger,the space for constructing would be smaller
and complicated to keep track.
I mean like dreamweaver/flash and other adobe childs with their docks,bars and menues.

But that's just my opinion

[sallybode]

Xara is a brilliant drawing program. And it is not like CorelDRAW in that it's focus is not primarily print, which DRAW is. People complain about DRAW as it is one behemouth of a program. And it is accordingly not nearly as responsive as Xara.

It is DECIDEDLY better than DRAW and Illustrator in terms of drawing capablity as far as speed and its tools. And because it isn't doing everything, it is affordable. If it put itself in a category in which it is now not able to compete in the arena of Adobe, because of so much heavy development fees, the cost to the user could be much greater, and they have to ask themselves, how many users would buy it. If they don't stay in business, where does that help any of us?

We are very fortunate in that we have a company who likes to listen to us. But we can't expect them to give us everything under the sun.

Xara has the best free training of anybody, but that gives the graphic artist who knows how to make use of it, trememdous freedom to bring it in to whatever program they need to in order to specialize further. If they came out with everything under the sun, and their price went to $1500.00 who would buy it, because it isn't Adobe, you see, would not be able to sell enough product. So they add a bit here and there. The users are down to earth and not what I have often encountered with the stalwart stick in the mud users of Adobe and MAC, arrogant to the eyeballs and no longer able to see reality. If you bought a car and found out that your engine and wheels and stereo, etc., were all accessory items, I'd would really feel cheated. Adobe does this, everything is an expensive add on. And really you can do most of what Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and Acrobat does in just one program, CorelDRAW. But I prefer Xara for drawing, it is superior to anything else out there. And it has an interface that you can make whatever you want from your art. It still doesn't help with inspiration. And you cannot buy that for any price, you either have it or you don't. Being able to have something left in my wallet is a big plus. If it were up to Adobe, we'd all be flat broke, and better off as fry cooks.

Xara has a wonderul upgrade and instead of all these nay sayers, we should be rising to a standing ovation.

[David O'Neil]

...Is it possible that Xara's history and culture is so defined by vector drawing that it can't see the current user/market landscape? This forum is littered with questions and suggestions from people like myself whose work is partly graphics and partly DTP. Yet all I hear in reply are work-arounds and “maybe someday…” I feel there is a failure at Xara to recognize that DTP is another creative medium with its own process and needs which are separate and distinct from illustration.

Before writing something like that, it would be advisable to put yourself in Xara's shoes, and see their landscape. What do you think Xara is trying to create? How many resources do you think they had to create it? Are they using their resources wisely?

Was it more important at this point to get PDF support, or focus on DTP? I believe you would have to be an idiot to say that DTP was more important than PDF support at this point, as a good DTP program needs PDF capabilities in a BIG way. So Charles and company seem to have focused on that priority.

The fact that they have significantly improved the text support capabilities is not to be scoffed at. Having programmed myself, I can tell you that the algorithms behind flowing boxes can be quite complicated. Their accomplishment is to be lauded, and to imply that they are not focusing on what they need to focus on is very ridiculous in my opinion.

If it is so important to you, program it yourself, or support those who are doing their best to get there with the resources they have. It appears to me that Xara is getting there, and I support that. There is a reason the program you envision is not out yet, and that is because it is a difficult program to create. DTP programs do not do what Xara does.

There is an old saying that is not followed much anymore: "If you are going to do something, do it well." It appears to me that Xara has done their best to follow that. I have confidence that as they add more DTP features, they will be implemented well, and one day you will look back and be unable to remember a time when Xara was not a good program.

The fact that you love Xara enough to pester them for DTP functionality speaks volumes about just how good Xara is at what it does.

Kudos to Charles and the gang, I say!

[davelash]

Before writing something like that, it would be advisable to put yourself in Xara's shoes, and see their landscape. What do you think Xara is trying to create? How many resources do you think they had to create it? Are they using their resources wisely?

Hey, David, peace! I'm trying to be constructive. I'm trying to articulate an unmet market need that I just don't see Xara acknowledging. I'm not in their shoes; they're free to place their bets as they see the landscape. Maybe, as Sallybode fears, a drawing/DTP app would be cumbersome. But since Xara's interface is about 50 times more intuitive than Illustrator, I figured they might be the outfit to pull it off.

For my particular design niche, I hate switching programs -- stifles my process and wastes tons of time. When I read the ad copy for XX Pro (below), I was ready to pop the champagne -- seriously! I just went back to read it again -- to see if I was crazy:

From the XX Pro Web page:

Multi-page documents
Xtreme Pro includes a feature that's been high on our user's wish list since the first launch - support for multiple page documents. It's now possible to use Xtreme to produce leaflets, newsletters and more. Pages can be single or double page spreads (left and right sides) and are arranged vertically, like a word processor or DTP program.

Xtreme's ultra-fast rendering means you can scroll through pages quickly and smoothly, even on large documents.

Enhanced text tool
Along with multi-page documents comes an enhanced text tool providing high-end DTP-like features, such as...

This brings Xtreme well into the Desk Top Publishing arena. Along with the lightning fast screen update, Xtreme is now perfect for producing documents such as brochures and flyers.

Sorry, but after that hype and despite the gains, I feel a little misled and disappointed...and wonder if Xara will ever become more than a drawing program --- which is fine, the company's perogative, but don't tell us its "well into the Desk Top Publishing arena" --- please!

So, nuts, now this sounds like a rant...sorry...it's really just my conviction that Xara could be a great combo tool. So I'd like to salute the progress made in XX Pro and, in the most positive way, encourage the folks at Xara to think about DTP as not just a set of features but as a design environment with its own unique process and needs, independent of vector drawing.

[remi]

Sorry, but after that hype and despite the gains, I feel I have a right to feel a little misled and disappointed...and to wonder if Xara will ever become more than a drawing program --- which is fine, the company's perogative, but don't tell us its "well into the Desk Top Publishing arena" --- please!

I don't think, that's a big problem at all - that's usual business. Adobe, Microsoft and all the other companies are also using "big words" in their marketing campaigns. Look at your own "Products" site on the Web: You are talking about offering "improved tools" for your customers, but your real examples are only some posters. A "tool" is a great software solution in my eyes, but not a poster. On the other side, this is not a reason to feel misled or disappointed in my eyes. Every User/Customer has to learn to read "between the lines" and asking some details about a solution/service.

I'm with you: there is a lot to do for the Xara developers and I know, how much time/work a good solution needs. Therefore I'm happy, that Xara has included some (not all) new DTP functions into Xara Xtreme PRO.

Remi

[David O'Neil]

Hey, David, peace!...

Yes, peace! I am sorry.

Best wishes,
David

[Peter Prewett]

XXP owes its origins to ArtWorks on the Acorn platform and it is one probable reason for being a good program being 'Lean and Mean'.
Another program which has been ported to Windows is OvationPro a DTP that is also 'Lean and Mean' and is one that I use.
Now if that could be incorporated into XXP or at least some of its features or work side by side it would fit most peoples needs.
Perhaps Xara could approach David Pilling the author to see if he could advise.
Peter

[Doug]

Sorry, but after that hype and despite the gains, I feel a little misled and disappointed...and wonder if Xara will ever become more than a drawing program --- which is fine, the company's perogative, but don't tell us its "well into the Desk Top Publishing arena" --- please!

So, nuts, now this sounds like a rant...sorry...it's really just my conviction that Xara could be a great combo tool. So I'd like to salute the progress made in XX Pro and, in the most positive way, encourage the folks at Xara to think about DTP as not just a set of features but as a design environment with its own unique process and needs, independent of vector drawing.

Xara doesn't meet your expectations-how is that their problem?

Seriously-Xara has always been a very focused, very good vector graphics program, not a dtp program. That is why people have bought and used Xara in the past and continue to use it. All Xara is doing now with Pro is providing 'hooks' like pdf export, etc. So that Xara Xtreme can better communicate with other software. Multi-page capability does not equal a dtp program in the making.

Xtreme is a very sharp and efficient knife right now. Personally, I don't want it turning into a super-duper deluxe Swiss Army Knife that is a jack of all trades, master of none.

Sally previously mentioned Corel Draw as a good example of what Xara is not. Each program has their uses, so buy the tool that does the job.
A combination power drill/hammer/chainsaw would let you use the same tool , but how efficient is it?