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Thread: Extraction 2

  1. #1

    Default Extraction 2

    Sally's hair extraction got me in the mood to do some extraction experiments... This one is from a posted pic in the Photoshop forum.
    Glass Sphere
    The challenge is to extract the swirly fractal flame from the posted pic. I don't think PI's extraction tool is the one to use for this....
    Here's what I got so far...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Extraction 2

    This isn't exactly extraction. But it is a good second. Many layers, inversions, desaturations, Eliminate White, Eliminate Black, merge layers, do more. And flood fill the background with gradient.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Extraction 2

    I see you used the pic I posted .
    Go to the link I posted. The picture there is bigger and has a nice solid black background. As with any image sources, the higher the definition, the better the result.
    For this one, I just created a grayscale copy of the pic, went back to the colored original, then from Selection, load selection, then chose the grayscale copy. Converted to object, and the image is extracted. You can use the smudge tool to smear the colors to the edges to get rid of the remaining background image included in the selection. Most of the time, this is useful for complicated shapes like trees or grass or those with partial transparencies like bottles or transparent glass.
    Sometimes you have to tweak the levels of the grayscale copy, or paint areas you don't want selected with black. Just remember that in the grayscale copy, the white parts represents the selected parts, the black parts the unselected and the gray tones represents partial transparency when you use it to create the selection.
    Just another tidbit I picked up from those endless Photoshop tutorials I always go through...
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Extraction 2

    It will be a few days before I get back to it. I've just gotten some tutorials for CorelDRAW by Foster Coburn that will be occupying my time for a few days.

    Have you downloaded PI 10 for a trial? Most filters and plugins are not available for free trial unless they are free to begin with. When a file is difficult to extract, I use other methods to increase the contrast such as inverting it, or using layers and doing especially exclusion or difference to enhance the contrast, merging and then dropping out a background that way and developing a mask that I can use later on. Of course the original is saved in a duplicate layer with eye icon turned off in case I flub. It may be that the programs that do extraction are analyzing the image in a similar manner in order to tell which pixels to make transparent. At first when I learned vector art and it was in Illustrator, I learned how to create the appearance of transparency when no transparency was avaiable in the program itself. The final result was what matters and still is. If done for a client, they only know if they are pleased with the results or not. Not why it is good or not in their opinion. Layer masks in Photoshop by allowing you to paint in grayscale, do allow you to do a partial knockout, however, that will only eliminate all of the image, not that parts you want. However a grayscale mask in channels if the background is primarily red, green or blue, could be used in masking. This is theoretical, I haven't tried it. Just brainstorming.

    But right now, I have other things I'd rather get to first.

    Found some interesting color swatches that are by Pantone which tells you for each hue what the CMYK color equivalent is. That is useful. And that is $29.00. I may invest in that for work.

    Hi-end retouching for fashion models with wind-blown hair is a novelty for me, knowing how to do it, I get very little call for that where I work, no-- I get no call for that. When I do have to retouch people's portraits, they are normally well-groomed but old, worn-out pictures, or out of focus stuff that people have kept in a junk drawer, such they think is fit for the front of a funeral folder. Not terribly exciting. That's as close as I get to the Forensics of it.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Extraction 2


    Nope, I didn't download the PI trial. I already have too many programs installed in my PC, I don't know what to explore when I find the time . There are just so many hours in a day...
    Yes, layer masks are very useful. Too bad PI doesn't support them. They're a great feature to have... Non-destructive, editable transparency.
    Great to hear you're digging into some tutorials. I'm sure we're all going to benefit from that as soon as you share your discoveries . Nah, not being a moocher . You don't have to share ALL your trade secrets . But that would be nice, though....
    How accurate are color swatches, in your opinion? I would imagine you can have the most definitive color swatch in the world, but in the end, it comes down to what the client wants and what the printer can come up with, so it's still a compromise, huh?
    Ah, yes, the glamor of real life photo manipulation. But overkill learning doesn't hurt...
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Extraction 2

    Graf, you didn't say what I should substitute for a background, so I got wild.

    And I'm not telling, nor would you suspect the program that did this.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by sallybode; 09 September 2005 at 05:10 AM. Reason: Adding image
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Extraction 2

    Here is another variation, but done within Xara X1 -Andrew
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #8

    Default Re: Extraction 2


    That's a creative solution, Andrew.
    Xara is amazing, but this type of image doesn't lend itself to easy extraction with vector paths. I know you can feather vectors in Xara, but to get the object alone would be more like redrawing the entire thing. And the smokelike variation in transparency would be very hard to duplicate with vectors alone... One thing Illlustrator have over Xara and Draw is layer masking... Now that would be a good added feature to have for both programs...
    Sally, I have no idea. But that's a great extraction and a very wild background .
    Last edited by Grafixman; 10 September 2005 at 08:35 AM. Reason: mental hiccup
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Extraction 2

    There are some great free filters that make this type of extraction possible so long as the background is pure white or pure black, they are called Transparency Eliminate White and Transparency Eliminate Black. Easy to find with a Google search. What each filter does is to tell all pixels which are black (white) to become transparent. They work only in RGB and a selection is required depending upon the program. Before beginning I duplicated the layer to be extracted and left the layer for preserving the original on top and turned off visibility and editability. Before using the filter, I duplicated the orignal 6 times, turning off the visiblity until I needed that layer.

    But the filter leaves the strength of the color weak. I used eliminate black filter. And then duplicated the origianl, (unaltered), using layer modes as shown to increase the amount of color. I made a background layer of zebra hide, dragged below the filtered layer.

    Best to understand the layers in involved and the list goes bottom up like on a layers palette.

    7. Original (to be used for comparison)--OFF • Normal • 100%
    6. Original Duplicate # 5--OFF • Color (Legacy)• 100%
    5. Original Duplicate # 4--ON • Hue (Legacy) • 100%
    4. Original Duplicate # 3--ON • Lighten • 100%
    3. Original Duplicate # 2--ON • Difference • 100%
    2. Original Duplicate # 1--ON • Difference • 100%
    1. Filtered Layer: Transparency Eliminate Black • Normal • 100%
    0. Background Layer: Filled with Zebra flood-fill • Normal • 100%

    Note: for the sample I posted the top two layers were turned off. The top layer (6) turned on would show no change, for convenience, it is easier to have a copy of what you are changing on top then turn it on and off for comparison. I know many people leave this on the bottom but there is no reason to do so. Layer 5 I also turned off because it brings the hues back to
    exactly what the file was originally, but with a transparent background. With the zebra background, I found the more intense colors more eye appealing, suited the subject matter.

    Unfortunately, in PI, Eliminate White and Black do not work, but it works in PS, PP and PSP. I did all this in PaintShopPro primarily because I knew there was a zebra background to use.

    Probably could have imported the file into PI, saving as a .psd and did the other layers as shown above, but PI does not have the Hue (Legacy) just like Paint Shop Pro, and neither does Photoshop. PS's colors are somewhat different.

    The Photoshop layers would be as follows for the same result:

    7. Original (to be used for comparison)--OFF • Normal • 100%
    6. Original Duplicate # 5--OFF • Hue • 100%
    5. Duplicate Layer #2--ON • Screen • 63%
    4. Duplicate Layer #1--ON • Screen • 63%
    3. Original Duplicate # 2--ON • Lighten • 100%
    2. Original Duplicate # 1--ON • Difference • 100%
    1. Filtered Layer: Transparency Eliminate Black • Normal • 100%
    0. Background Layer: Filled with Zebra flood-fill • Normal • 100%


    The PhotoImpact layers would be as follows for the same result:

    7. Original (to be used for comparison)--OFF • Normal • 0%
    6. Duplicate Layer #1--ON • Addition • 71%
    5. Original Duplicate--ON • If Lighter • 0%
    4. Original Duplicate--ON • Colorize • 0%
    3. Original Duplicate # 2--ON • Lighten • 0%
    2. Original Duplicate # 1--ON • Difference • 0%
    1. Filtered Layer: Transparency Eliminate Black • Normal • 0%
    0. Background Layer: Filled with Zebra flood-fill • Normal • 0%

    Note also, PI views transparency like PhotoPaint with your transparency values inverted from Photoshop. Note also that because I was not able to use the Eliminate Black filter in PI, this must be imported from any program that can do this.

    However why stop there? Since the above descriptions render the same approximate graphic output, lets add what PI can do that the others well, will have a hard time to do and why I love PI even if it has to sometimes rely on other programs.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by sallybode; 10 September 2005 at 07:45 PM. Reason: Edting graphic
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Extraction 2

    Wowee, Sally. It seems like you're on a roll.
    Blend modes, yes. They're a nice way of enhancing an image. One thing about them, though, is except for multiply, I really have no mental picture of how they will turn out so I often go through the process of scrolling though the modes one by one until I find the one I like. You can scroll through PI's blend mode via the up and down arrow keys if you have the blend mode field highlighted (by placing the cursor over it so it turns blue and opens the dropdown list of the modes, pressing down the up or down arrows scrolls through the modes one by one and lets you see the effect if you have the preview checkbox highlighted).
    Another trick in PI I picked up from Jen at PIBB is to save a set of objects as a png file to "flatten" the objects as a single object. Often, if you have a couple of objects with different blend modes, combining the objects into a single object destroys the transparency. Part of the background color becomes incorporated into the resulting object. By selecting the objects with different blend modes you want to convert as a single object and running the save for web function and saving the group as a transparent png file, you can get a good transparent version of the combined objects which you can import back to the file you're working on. Pretty good trick which I often use...
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