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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    In my previous post 'How to develop a killer page with XARA X in less than 60 minutes' Marcus started ranting and tried to show me some effects he thinks he can do only with PhotoSoup.

    Wrong.

    Here we go with the first one, the blend of two different bitmaps. Completed in **ONE** minute.

    jens g.r. benthien
    designer
    http://jens.highspeedweb.net

    ----------//--
    If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
    ----------//--
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    We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
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  2. #2
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    In my previous post 'How to develop a killer page with XARA X in less than 60 minutes' Marcus started ranting and tried to show me some effects he thinks he can do only with PhotoSoup.

    Wrong.

    Here we go with the first one, the blend of two different bitmaps. Completed in **ONE** minute.

    jens g.r. benthien
    designer
    http://jens.highspeedweb.net

    ----------//--
    If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
    ----------//--
    --------------------//--
    We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
    --------------------//--

  3. #3
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    No sweat. Sorry I had only the low res from the post. Just a quickie in less than TWO minutes.

    jens g.r. benthien
    designer
    http://jens.highspeedweb.net

    ----------//--
    If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
    ----------//--
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
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  4. #4
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    with the outline to prove it's a vector app I'm using

    jens g.r. benthien
    designer
    http://jens.highspeedweb.net

    ----------//--
    If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
    ----------//--
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
    --------------------//--

  5. #5
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    And listen you young wanna-be-designers and artists, illustrators, tweakers, listen carefully:

    If you think you are a master just because you've purchased PhotoSoup or gazillions of PhotoSoup filters and plug-ins doesn't mean you are CREATIVE.

    An effect for the sake of the effect is like shitting into your pants because you are scared, nothing else. And please do me a favor: do never again try to compare an 800 dollar package with a 90 dollar package (or is it 190 dollars? I don't remember it). The 800 is a waste if you only want the effects (sorry if I have the wrong price for PhotoSoup at this point, but in Germany it's around US$ 1.300)

    You'd better listen to the experienced designers, artists, illustrators, product developers, watch them, ask them if you can look over their shoulders before you start commenting or speaking. Hold your breath for a while. Learn how to be creative and how to draw, illustrate, render, just using your hands, brain, some sort of drawing pad and only a pencil BEFORE you think you can take over the world. You simply don't know enough to compete with know how and experience. A filter effect rubs off very fast and is used by others as well, so it's never unique.

    You can't substitue experience with purchased effects. Learn and study the tools you have. Gather experience. And then let's talk.

    Are you sure you are fit enough for a real shoot out? I'd love it though this 2D stuff is not my strongest weapon. I **know** that not only I can kock you out in less than 10 minutes right on the spot in a real competition, there are many more in this forum who can do it. They all belong to the 'old' or 'older' generation. Don't underestimate this generation only because it doesn't belong to the MTV generation or generation X.

    It's a fatal error to believe you are better just because you are younger, more computer educated or better equipped with plug-ins and filters.

    Did you ever hold a real airbrush in your hands? Do you really know how to mask without an 'automatic plug-in' behind it? Did you ever study a production process and materials before you started thinking about developing a new product?

    But let's stop here because I don't want to stirr up this forum too much.

    Have a great easter weekend,

    jens

    jens g.r. benthien
    designer
    http://jens.highspeedweb.net

    ----------//--
    If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
    ----------//--
    --------------------//--
    We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
    --------------------//--

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
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    Prince Edward Island, Canada --- The land of lawn tractors
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    I use primarily xara. I rarely use any bitmap editing programs. I find that I can do most things I want to do using Xara. I recognize that the things I want to do are influenced by the tools I have on hand in Xara. In other words, if I were more familiar with using other tools it would probably affect the things I try to achieve.

    I have had limited direct experience working with graphic artists who use photoshop. The few that come to mind scared me with how fussy they were. It could be that they just didn't know when to stop. I remember one guy trying to touch up a tiny portion of a large poster-sized image. Three hours of work and I couldn't see any difference. It seemed to me that the pixel level control exceeded the real task at hand - making a poster that was to be hung ten feet in the air.

    The dinner theater advert is a good example. For web work or other relatively low rez uses the xara approach probably is acceptable. Jens' version is perhaps a little crude - a better source image and a bit more effort on the trimming and he'd of had a better result. Now was what he did any faster than doing it in Photoshop? I suspect the amount of effort would be similar. The example shows more that you can get the job done with xara.

    For me the real value of Xara is the relatively straightforward way drawings are created. I'm biased by my familiarity with Xara. I once bought a expensive book on Photoshop studio techniques. I had thought I'd like to learn more about Photoshop. From my xara background those studio techniques seemed very convoluted and unintuitive. The images created were of course masterpieces. The methods came across as "tricks". They were tricks in that if you did a whole series of seemingly disjointed moves, a desirable "wow" effect could be achieved. I realize there is some of that with Xara. I just find that when in Xara you try someones minitutorial, you add to your set of skills. Those photoshop "tricks" on the otherhand, for me at least, remain recipies that have to be refered to and followed step-by-step to be used. In contrast, I find xara approaches relatively intuitive. It seems to jive with my way of thinking.

    The bottom line (if I can be so bold) is that artists should use the software they are comfortable with - with what jives with their way of thinking. Your software is your tool that you must be comfortable with. If Marcus knows how to draw a tornado in photoshop - then he should use photoshop to draw tornados. It doesn't make any sense for him to do it in Xara. Jens & I, if faced with a need for a tornado, would probably turn to Xara. To each his own.

    Regard, Ross

    <a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

  7. #7
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    I basically agree with everything Ross says. And I never meant to imply that you COULDN'T do certain things in Xara.

    I think cetain things are EASIER in Photoshop. For instance, I am impressed with Jen's bitmap blending, but I would definately turn to Photoshop for such a job. To me, blending is a craft that involves experimentation and play with the many blend modes that Photoshop offers and Xara doesn't.

    Also, I shouldn't have to trace to do an extraction. I should be able to use extract tools for most work.

    On the other hand, though Photoshop has CRUDE vector tools, I would NEVER try to create a streamlined vector-like image in Photoshop. I would immediately turn to Xara.

    On sites like Photoshoptechniques, I contantly see people going through all sorts of torment to create -- in Photoshop -- something that would be much easier to create in Xara. Similarly, here I see people going through hoops to create Xara art that could have been done more easily in Photoshop.

    They are different and equally valuable tools.

    Of course people are going to feel comfortable using tools they know well and uncomfortable using tools they don't know well. If you can get all your work done in your tool of choice, more power to you. But I would suggest that -- in general -- it's worthwhile for a designer to learn both a bitmap and a vector tool.

    Bitmap tools feel a lot like drawing and painting to me. Vector tools feel more like sculpting. Some people are painters. Some people are sculptors.

    Jens, I agree with you that filters/effects are no substitue for creativity. But this has nothing to do with Photoshop as a tool. This is something that all pros I know agree with.

    Marcus Geduld
    { email me } { visit me }
    Marcus Geduld
    { email me } { visit me }

  8. #8
    Wizaerd Guest

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    >> On sites like Photoshoptechniques, I contantly
    >> see people going through all sorts of torment
    >> to create -- in Photoshop -- something that
    >> would be much easier to create in Xara.
    >> Similarly, here I see people going through
    >> hoops to create Xara art that could have been
    >> done more easily in Photoshop.

    One of the reasons Canvas is such a great tool is it can do both... vectors and illustrations like Xara, and pixel pushing like PhotoShop...

  9. #9
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    RWC, CA, USA
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    I'm certainly no expert, but I have had my hand in just about every pot having to with art.

    I DO know how to use an airbrush, well!! Paint a picture, draw a diagram, sculpt a statue and render in pen and ink. I became intrigued with computer graphics seeing as I had little choice as my health changed and I became more and more sensitive to the toxins (minor and major) to hands on painting and crafts. Computer graphics was the next logical choice for me.

    I have played with Photoshop, hated it, the learning curve was out of my scope of patience, but I love PhotoPaint and for some reason (I started using it in version 8) the learning curve was more intuitive. I am now using version 10 and it's a buggy creature but still useful for what I need it for.

    There are things that are not so easily accomplished in XaraX compared to a paint program. While I admire folks like Vladimyr and Newton, they have the patients of a saint, I do not currently posses that kind of patience. AND while I am not out to conquer the world with my technique or anything, I AM out to satisfy my personal needs for my soul (art is soul food for me!!). I am learning more and more and maybe one day I can do everything in XaraX (maybe in a couple more version upgrades when it can do more itself [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]), for now, being an artist that truly enjoys doing human portraits and figure drawing I find that PhotoPaint satisfies this need.

    Usually what I do is do the portrait or figure in PhotoPaint, export it as a Tiff (high quality) import it into XaraX and add elements to it, like eyes, lip color, jewelrey, cloths, overlay other colors that I may have missed in PhotoPaint. I use a mixture of the two and it satisfies my needs.

    I find that once I get a PhotoPaint painting into Xara X, if I remove the border from around the image and it becomes an object (vecortized) I can resize it pretty well. So in PhotoPaint I do the image extra large and then re-size it down instead of up.

    XaraX has proven itself time and time again to me, like the Fairy Goblet for the Pan painting I will get back too eventually, I couldn't have achieved that tight rendering in pixels, but in vecotor, crisp and clean. But minute, fine blending's I find I can do better in PhotoPaint. So they are both wonderful tools for me to use. Objects in XaraX and human skin type stuff in PhtotoPaint.

    Works for me.

    As for Canvas, it's OK, it's not XaraX by any stretch of the imagination!!!

    RAMWolff [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    [This message was edited by RAMWolff on March 29, 2002 at 11:34.]
    Richard

    ---Wolff On The Prowl---

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    Westminster, Colorado USA
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    Default


    Your attitude about Photoshop, plugins and filters shows that you limit yourself, and expect others to do the same.

    No thanks!

    Photoshop is a great tool, for RASTER images, and I use it for such. Like Marcus, I can do quite a lot more with raster images in Photoshop than you can with a vector app. And I'm not referring to using plugins or effects! Can you color correct using Curves in Xara? Dither a non-browser-safe color with two other safe colors? Save gifs with 3 different types of dithering (error diffusion is Xara's only method)? Of course not!

    Your understanding of Photoshop is obviously quite rudimentary. Photoshop is DEEP, and isn't the industry standard for no reason, otherwise most designers and photographers wouldn't pay the high price for it.

    I bought Xara X to do vector graphics, so that I can have scalable images, for importing into web pages at any size, into Flash movies, etc. I realize that you CAN work with raster images in Xara, but I seldom do until I have the raster images FINISHED in Photoshop. And I frequently FINISH my images exported from Xara, in Photoshop! Why? Because I know HOW, and can improve Xara-made images in ways you are unaware of.

    It's great that you can do so much in Xara, and I envy your ability with Xara. Xara is obviously a very flexible program, but it's PRIMARILY a vector graphics program. It isn't "art" because you did it in one app or another, and you aren't a "designer" or "artist" because of the tools you use. Your advice to budding designers is fairly good along creative lines, and in the learning of fundementals. However, your ATTITUDE towards "wanna-be" designers/artists is self-serving and not very helpful, because you limit yourself to just one approach, when there are a myriad of tools to use.

    The goal, after all, is to find a way to produce the image you envision.

    Most of the images I have been learning to build in Xara, I could have created in Photoshop in 1/5th the time. So what? I want to eventually use each tool for what it does best.

    I must agree, that Photoshop is not nearly as intuitive as Xara. It takes time and practice(and patience!) to learn Photoshop. It is well worth it, IF you intend to work with raster images a lot.

    I don't use plugins or filters much, unless I am going for a specific envisioned effect. However, there are several plugins that are NOT used for "special" effects, and are just useful for such things as dithering or anti-aliasing, but you wouldn't know that unless you explored the subject. Tools.

    I could produce your web page design from the other thread, in a few hours, easily, using Photoshop. (I'm not as fast as Marcus.)

    However, I'd rather learn how to do it in Xara X, so that I can add to my already hefty arsenal of tools. I certainly won't abandon Photoshop, but I use it a lot less now that I have Xara X!

    I really liked your NetRock Server web design. Where the real work came in, was in the envisioning and creating of the design of this page. Obviously you have worked hard and developed your talent in this area. Kudos!

    The tools are just tools.

    If you can't learn, you limit your abilities.

    Dale

    Why, I’m afraid I can’t explain myself, sir, because I’m not myself, you know...
    - Lewis Carroll

 

 

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