OT but regular topic - Copyright

[Turan]

What is the difference between ownership and copyright?

If a sell a logo or drawing to a company and give them full copyright. Do they own the artwork full-stop?

I ask as I sold a piece to A company, but another company (owned by the same person) is using the artwork. But I sold it to the company and not the director as an individual - I have a contact signed by the individual, but the contract is with the first company.


Do you think I have a right to charge for second usage?

Turan

PS the full story is that the first company never paid in full, so the real reason I'm asking is that unless they pay the original amount I want to charge extra for additional usage if they don't pay for the first - I'm not too tight as I'll not charge double if I get paid once :-) but was interested to know were I stand?

[Turan]

What is the difference between ownership and copyright?

If a sell a logo or drawing to a company and give them full copyright. Do they own the artwork full-stop?

I ask as I sold a piece to A company, but another company (owned by the same person) is using the artwork. But I sold it to the company and not the director as an individual - I have a contact signed by the individual, but the contract is with the first company.


Do you think I have a right to charge for second usage?

Turan

PS the full story is that the first company never paid in full, so the real reason I'm asking is that unless they pay the original amount I want to charge extra for additional usage if they don't pay for the first - I'm not too tight as I'll not charge double if I get paid once :-) but was interested to know were I stand?

[gwpriester]

Turan

INLB... (I'm no lawyer, but)

As a rule, when I sell a logo to a client, I also give them the ownership/copyrights to the logo. After all, it would not be ethical to sell the same logo to two clients.

On the other hand, if you were not paid in full for your design, as per your contract, then your client and/or his company (depending upon how your contract is worded), may not have ownership and copyrights to the logo.

Your contract should state that you retain all owenership to your designs until the terms of the contract are met. If it does, then you have them over a barrel. If not, then you should add such wording to your contract and chalk this up to a learning experience.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

<a href="http://www.gwpriester.com">
www.gwpriester.com </a>


XaraXone

[Turan]

The thing is, the first company (the one the contract was with)has stopped trading. So, they are not using the work! And I'm waiting for them (mr X) to say we (his 1st company) don't have any money. Yet the second company (run by same Mr X) is trading away (implies they have money).

Hence if that happens I'd like to say I own the work, I just sold Company A the full right to copy it and use it. If Ownership and Copyright are different then I can. And so (as I own it) I can ask the second company to pay for full copyright again.

As I said if I got paid for it once I would not care how many of his companies used it.

Turan

PS my contract does say copyright is mine until full payment. But Company A, may say no money and right me off as a bad debt.

PPS I appreciate all comments are personal opinions - I will be seeking legal advice.

[Turan]

I would also ask the question. If you sell full ownership and copyright does this mean you need to get permission to display exmaples of work you have done on your web page?

Turan

[Wolfgang]

Hi Turan,

INL2B:

That company A is out of business means, that your chances for getting money from them are rather poor.

If you sold the rights / the design to company A (as you said) then company B (regardless of the owner) is in fact a violator of your copyright.

One exception to this rule though: If both companies are (in lack of a better translation) 'single-member companies' (NOT a limited or joint company) then it may be legal for the owner to use it twice.

I run a single member company myself. I am entitled to use a company name of my choice, but by legal terms my own name is always the company name.
So I might legally operate as "XaraArtist Advertising" and even additionally to that as "Photoshop Publishing", giving the impression of two different companies. Still - legally - it would be ONE company, bearing my own name.

Other than that, we have a slightly (but in some cases greatly) different system of rights.
First there's the "Urheberrecht" (creator's right). You can't sell or give away this one. If you originally made it, it's yours. Full stop.
This right also enables you to show off a design you made in the first place on your webpage / your portfolio. No asking of clients required.

The second one is the "Nutzungsrecht" (right of usage).
You sell/grant this right to a specific company/individual for a specific time for a specific usage in a specific market.

Like "timely unlimited usage for company A on website, business cards and stationary in Europe"

If they want to print a folder with it or expand to the USA, they need to buy this additional rights from you. They also have no right to change your design unless you specifically give them this right.

Now back to myself: I normally sell my designs (mostly logos and webpages) to a specific client for timely and geographically unlimited usage. In case of a logo they also get the right for usage on unlimited media.

They never get the right to change or resell my designs.
I had clients who used my original website-designs for books, folders and CDs on their own without asking me first.
Because those two in questions were (and are) regular and good clients (and they really did not know about the legal situation) I did not do anything against it. Still, it would be my right to do so.

So how do you get your money ??

a) If it is an abobe mentioned "single person" company, the owner may have the right to re-use your design. BUT in this case he is still personally liable to pay you the rest of your money.

b) If not the above, you will have little chance to get money from company A.
BUT company B is a copyright violator in this case and you can sue them and you will win the case. Sometimes the threat of a lawsuit is enough to make them pay [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Hope that helped. Since we both are in the EC, our legal system should not be too different ...

Wolfgang

[jens g.r. benthien]

the copyright is different in Europe ;-}

As far as I know you can't sell the copyright, just the right to USE a design, logo, artwork. That means you can sell the license, but the copyright will remain your personal property for 70 years - after that it's public domain.

But if you have sold the rights to company A and company B is using the logo, they have to pay for a second license - everywhere in Europe. Reason: the customer is not allowed to transfer a license without written permission of the creator.

Simple? Hope this helps. And yes, you are right, Europe **is** weird, especially after they have introduced the new banana curreny - the EURO.

jens

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--

[Turan]

Actually both A and B are Limited companies.

So things are looking good.

Turan

[gwpriester]

Turan

Depending upon how much money is involved, you might want to consult an attorney. If you have a friend who is an attorney, or if there is a volunteer legal association available, you could ask them to write a letter to this individual saying the terms of your agreement have not been met, and until such a time as they are, the individual (scum bag if you ask me) does not own, nor possess the rights to the design, and to cease using the logo at once and to remove it from any and all current uses.

I doubt if it will do you any good, however, because people like you described play by their own rules and will weasel 10 ways to Sunday before complying.

When my wife and I were running our own business full time, we used to refer to something like this as earning credits towards our MBA (Master of Business Arts) degree. We figured we could pay thousands of dollars to attend business school and never learn the important lessons you learn when some jerk like this hoses you.

Then we would add another paragraph of boilerplate copy to our terms.

We also had a policy that until a client had established a good credit rating with us, it was 50% up front and 50% before we handed over the finished files, and/or projects.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

<a href="http://www.gwpriester.com">
www.gwpriester.com </a>


XaraXone

[Turan]

I was reading/reviewing my terms as you were posting you comments on updating things after events like this [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

It is unfortunate that the good clients (with every intention of paying) have to pay 50% upfront before they see anything because of people like this man [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img]

If only everyone was a Xara'ian then the world would be a better place [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Turan