NOF

[diane buenger]

A couple things in favor of Dreamweaver.

One is that if a high-end corporate site is done on a wysiwyg editor - dollars to donuts it was done using Dreamweaver. Even intranet sites are moving away from FrontPage toward Macromedia products. I'm not saying that corporate America is always right, but it's never a bad thing to have their favorite tools on your resume.

Another factor is that Macromedia's vectorware is making them a favorite for "the next big internet thing."

Each software designer has a slightly different approach to UI (i.e., adobe loves task specific floating palettes, macromedia is obsessed with object property inspection.) Becoming familiar with DW trains your mind to Macromedia's paradigm - always good to know how to ride the type of horse that's likely to win.

Ditto with flash, fireworks and director...

[d-sine]

gary,

this is turning out to be quite an interesting discussion, it's a shame that there isn't a section like this about print publishing, but there we go.

as requested here's some urls for sites created in both NOF and Dreamweaver. please bear in mind that some of the NOF sites were created with early versions and the software was good then but it has got a fair bit more powerful since. also, not all of these urls are sites that still exist, i have copies uploaded for "portfolio" use so don't use any mailforms etc please!

anyhow, here are some sites i've created with NOF (varying versions)..

http://www.d-zone.org/sites/ashdown/
http://www.d-zone.org/sites/bd/
http://www.d-zone.org/sites/edr/
http://www.d-zone.org/sites/id/


here are some sites i've produced with Dreamweaver (version 4)...

http://www.zingsmusic.net/
http://www.dbuzz.f9.co.uk/
http://www.d-shops.co.uk/
http://www.d-sine.org/


i hope this gives you an insight into what can be done with each of the packages, of course these are only a small showcase of their capabilities but it may be useful in any case.

any queries, just ask!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

richard (d-sine)

:: d-sine :: www.d-sine.org

[gidgit]

You have presented some very valid points to ponder Diane...

There is little doubt that one in the business can ill afford to not be familiar with the top industry products...

That said, I would suggest that there are many reasons surrounding why people choose to use other products... whether these reasons are cost related, GUI intuitiveness related, market exposure etc ... bottom line still suggests that there are in fact reasons... which, are essentially holes in the armour of those apps we hold up as standards...

Swish comes to mind here...sure it is missing the advanced action scripting of Flash, amongst other things, but...should the next version of Swish bring about as many improvements as did version 2, then the good folks at Macromedia are in for quite the battle... Why? Mainly because Swish is so much more intuitive to use than is Flash, and... at a fraction of the cost both in cash laid out, as well, learning curve applied...
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I am happy that there are many solutions from which to choose from and suggest that should there become more universal approaches adapted that would see tighter integration between all apps ( SuperOLE ?)then the monopolies at the top will spend more time delivering truly remarkable tool sets rather than proprietary integrated solutions for their own markets end...I know this is unlikely to happen, but we can still dream eh? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

d-sine
Have you ever heard of a DTP called PagePlus ?

[d-sine]

hi gidgit,

yeah, i've heard of PagePlus, has been around for quite a few years now and it has "improved with age" you could say. i have become a quark xpress (ab)user over the years mainly due to running my own IT & design business for a while and having to work closely with the Mac-setters in printshops etc.

is PagePlus your tool of choice? is it okay to discuss dtp here, or am i stretching the "publishing" part of the section title a little...!

d-sine

:: d-sine :: www.d-sine.org

[gidgit]

Hi d-sine,

I don't find a problem in discussing DTP in this forum, and though it is a web design and publishing forum, things be the way they are, there is a narrowing line between the both... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Though I myself do not use Page Plus, I throw the question out here and there to gauge responces...I recently read a review in PC Plus that put the top DTP apps in the spotlight and low and behold Page Plus took top marks for best value and came away with a 9/10 overall score...This has me very curious indeed...I am very interested whether or not any others here at Talk have tried or use this app, and what their opinions are...

The top three in this review:

Adobe InDesign 2... Editors choice
Serif Page Plus 8... Best Value
Quark XPress 4.1... Best Performer

Me, I use MS Publisher when ever the need arises... gidgit ducks...hehe [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[dalel]

There are also many more books published about the MAJOR programs like Dreamweaver, including good references.

It may be my personal quirk, but I would much rather learn a program or consult a reference from a book, than from Help files or other online references, such as HTML pages.

There needs to be a better book published for
NOF MX. The one that comes with the program is basic.

Based on my research into available web design jobs, most of the firms want DEVELOPERS rather than designers(wider skill set), and the most desired skills were: Active Server Pages/SQL Server, specific programming skills(XML, Java, JSP, Perl/CGI/PHP, COM, VBasic, C++), UNIX and NT administration experience, and ColdFusion.

The most desired DESIGN skills were:
HTML/Javascript, Dreamweaver/Fireworks, Perl/CGI,
and Photoshop/Illustrator.

http://www.eyesitewebdesign.com/dale.gif

Why, I’m afraid I can’t explain myself, sir, because I’m not myself, you know...
- Lewis Carroll

[gidgit]

Great points Dale... you could probably add Flash amongst others to the list... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[dalel]

Funny, I almost never see Flash in their lists of skills required or desired. Maybe their senior developers already have Flash skills, and they need someone to do the less enjoyable work, like knocking out code.

Most of these employers build e-commerce sites or business sites, because that is where the money is.

Flash is rarely seen on business sites. The local web design firms advertise their Flash skills to the public, but probably use those skills rarely. You seldom see Flash sites on their portfolio pages. There is a great firm here called AI Design that builds some great Flash interfaces that are so subtle, you don't realize that they are Flash at first. That is unfortunately the exception when it comes to Flash sites. Diane on the Site Design forum has a very good web design site(thenwhen.com) with a few simple Flash effects and really good navigation that is similar to using frames. Her site loads very fast, is scalable with adjusting the browser size, and looks great without killing you with flashy(pun) effects.

I am all for Flash, but there are too many Flash sites that are too slow, and just plain suck, either from over-doing it, or making it too different from what visitors are used to. If the Flash plugin was a permanent part of browsers, and you couldn't turn it off, that would change everything, but that isn't likely to happen. I don't beleive Flash will ever be a mainstay of design, but it is great for certain types of sites, like art and music sites.

Oddly, many web design firms build their own sites with Flash only. I find it annoying that they don't allow you to visit plain HTML pages instead. That is why I give the visitor a choice of Flash or HTML version on my site. If they want to see a demonstration of my Flash skills, they can look at my Flash version. Otherwise, I don't want to annoy them if they are just looking for information.

http://www.eyesitewebdesign.com/dale.gif
Eye Site Web Design
Why, I’m afraid I can’t explain myself, sir, because I’m not myself, you know...
- Lewis Carroll

[DLFrost]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gary Allred:
I am still considering which web design program to learn (besides hand coding). I know that Gary Priester swears by NetObject Fusion. I understand they were bought out and now are about to lauch version 7 next week. I noticed that Dale was not impressed with NOF - are there other opinions out there that have used NOF.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The thing you have to understand about NetObjects Fusion is that it is a website generator rather than a site editor. Access to underlying code is therefore limited. With that in mind, NOF is very good at what it does, and with the pile of 3d party add-ons out there it can do some pretty fancy stuff.

Even if you edit with something else NOF is still useful for page design and page template creation.

Some resources for NOF (but don't forget to check Google too):

Turtle's NOF help and info site (excellent)
http://fusion.turtle-web.com/

COOLMAPS COMPONENTS
(they also have a discussion group)
http://www.coolmaps.com

FusionBuilders (offical site, also excellent)
http://www.fusionbuilders.com/

Also, I just noticed this info about upgrading on FusionBuilders:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The new version of Fusion has been scheduled for launch on June 17, 2002. Orders can not be processed by NetObjects before then, although you can register your intention to order with FusionBuilders by email. We will contact you with an order link as soon as it is available. However if you own a version of Fusion prior to MX you can buy the MX Upgrade (more details below) which will qualify you for a free version of Fusion 7 when launched, and potentially save you some money on the cost of upgrading, equally if you are considering purchasing Fusion for the first time, the cost effective way to do this would be to purchase the full version of MX (between March 12 and June 15) which also entitles you to a free version of Fusion 7 when launched.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doug Frost

[joy]

Hi Gary
I notice you hand code. With that advantage, you can start using DW without even opening a book, I did. Wow its easy and fast. Start with the trial. Also there are wonderful resources on the net to help with more complicated coding. I don't know anything about other wzw's.

And the interface (called "round trip") between FireWorks and DW is very fast and effective --especially when one requires a quick resize of photo. So I would recommend FW along with your purchase of DW.
Good Luck and do good things,
Joy