When is it all going to end?

[Erik Heyninck]

try to rotate 180

[Erik Heyninck]

I give up.

If you don't work against time, time often works for you.

[Wolfgang]

Eric,

whatever you wanted to say after "180" [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

You are absolutely right of course, but I did not talk of *absolute cost* anyway.

If an experienced (and established) designer takes 10.000 bucks for a site and a beginner takes 2.000 because he wants to gain experience, that's OK.
But it is important to write down WHAT you will do for WHAT. And it really does not matter how high the price indeed is.

Today, I would rather watch a movie than create a logo for a 'handful of dollars'. I may do it free for charity, but never below my regular price for a business client.
But four years ago, my goal was to get some clients quick and to 'get known'.
Those days I most likely would have done it.

Even though the price has risen, the rules did not change. And I found it important to set the rules as early and clearly as possible.

As I said, you can always do extra if you want, but no client can *force* you to do it for free if you have set the conditions straight.

Wolfgang

[roman]

I don't think I'm experienced enough in this bussiness to teach anyone and also I still learn myself but this is how I do it in most cases.

Personal meeting(s!) with client, informal chat about the requested work. I never say my price without considering the ammount of the work alone. On the second meeting I give the client the proposal with all detailed about technology used and content of the page, requested material and price down. I don't have problem to be accepted by client with which I have spent time in a good chat where I've learned lot about him and his needs. My strategy and pricing depends on that but I have my price based on hourly rate. Project is paid when finished.

Roman

[Erik Heyninck]

I wanted to say: change places.
Suppose you are in your client's place and (s)he in yours: would (s)he do it for you under the same conditions?
This more objective way of looking at things makes it easier to be a little "tough" sometimes.
Because, in my experience, the clients that want you to work for free or for a fistful of dollars (thanks, Ennio) are often those that always want you to tweak something, or that come up with loads of extra work afterwards.
Therefore, as has been said: write it *all* down, even if it is for free.

[Wolfgang]

Roman, I could not have said it any better ..

Eric, we share the same experiences as it seems.

I have big companies as my clients that paid - over the years - a lot of money. They mostly are very good to work with, because they are professionals in marketing/advertising as well.

Those who whined and complained about the initial price were also the ones to make the biggest problems afterwards.

I tend to satisfy my clients at almost any cost. But sometimes, enough is enough and once (thank god only once) I even had to "fire" a client. A lot of the work was done already, but I did not charge him anything, just to get rid of him.
Needless to say it was a very small company (even though they made very impressive profits).

Ever since I try to stick to bigger players, but I still use small businesses as a 'filler' between bigger projects. And you don't get the big guys all the time ...

Wolfgang

[IKraus]

Interesting topic! Appreciate all of the comments, as it's always informative to hear about how others work.

Getting back to your initial question, Turan, I took a standard Independent Contractor's Agreement form I found on the web and modified the heck out of it suit my needs. Put in clauses about Intellectual Property, and so forth. (No, I don't want to share it with anyone as I haven't had it eyeballed by a real lawyer yet.)

I'm also making more of a point of defining when work will be finished. Will have to relate my recent experience in hopes it helps someone else avoid this particular pothole!

Couple had contact me to design site for their home party business. Did a mess of research, talked with them, and did more research... Came up with what I thought was a reasonable proposal. They made their 50% deposit. Got their initial design work done in a few days, but the bulk of the content took several weeks as they hadn't sent me everything I needed. Site was finished, and by all reports they were happy with it before 4 weeks had passed from initial meeting.

The last 'job' I had to do for them was to register their site with various search engines & directory services. I did so, but first company didn't give me any proof that orders were submitted. So, I paid another so I could prove that the orders had been submitted. They wanted to wait to pay me my final payment until their site showed up in their favorite search engine. (MSN in this case.)

IMO, my job was finished at the time I did the registrations and could prove the orders had been placed. They disagreed. I didn't have that part in writing, so I was stuck with playing a waiting game for a while.

Time passed, and now they wanted updates done on the site. Plus, they complained about the quantity of junk mail they were getting. (They had 5 free e-mail accounts as part of their hosting service, and I wanted to use those on their site. They thought that was too complicated.) They called me up and wanted me to come to their house to look at their e-mail, etc. I told them I would, for $XXX per hour. They freaked. (I guess I was supposed to do all of that for free!)

At this point, it was pretty clear to me that I wasn't going to be able to get them to pay me what was owed on my own. So, I turned it over to a collection agency. Boy, then the nasty messages on my voice mail & by e-mail really kicked in. Don't know if I could ever use any of it for a slander or libel suit, but I'm keeping it all just in case.

They did pay something to the collection agency, but are still threatening to sue me. I tried on numerous occasions to explain how things work, and the simple fact that I don't own any of these search engine/directory services. Can't control anything about how long they take to work.

Moral of my story is, make sure you say right in your Estimate (whatever) at what point the job will be considered finished. Also (for web site designs) make sure you tell them the facts about registrations. (I've got it in writing on my Agreements forms now!)

Push yourself to notice the extraordinary in the ordinary.

Irene M. Kraus
www.design-comp.com

[ajreed]

While we choose to discuss web site experiences rather than the graphics behind them, I have a few points to raise.

The money. Various different figures have been tossed around and I guess its up to the individual to decide how much to charge or what he/she can get away with, but my question here is when and what percentage. Deposit up front? Part payments? Or the whole amount due when completion is deemed to have been reached?

What precautions do people take against theft of graphics, html etc by the client before proper payment has been received. Or maybe this does not exist [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

What about registering domain names for the client, presumably always in the clients name (as change later costs too much) but do you initiate registration or get the client to do it themselves. Again how do you levy payments, before? after? at the end of the whole project?

Graphics with such excellent packages like Xara is only half the battle in turning skills into dollars (or pounds in my case).

Alan

[Turan]

I'll say what I did with my lack of experence and see who agrees.

I registered the domain in the clients name.
I asked for 30% up front plus the domani/hosting fees. But the e-mail I give is mine i.e. the host'er sends all passwords to me for complete control of the site.
First meeting was to capture requirements.
Second meeting was to show logo's and art work (on laptop - where nothing could be taken from me other than the idea (image in his head)). Once 30%+fees was taken I created the domain and ftp'ed what I had to the site.

As the site has a link to my site and is in my control - I figure this is not bad. That is, if they don't pay up and I have control of their site I can always add "BAD DEBTOR" to their web site and submit it to a few search engines if they don't pay.

Turan

[roman]

I use that one too,- for bigger projects. It's called (warning word-to-word translation) "The treaty about creation".

Alan, I don't have experience with deposit, but I would for sure ask for one when doing a really big job.

Precautions... hm.. once I experienced (when I was student) that web-company for which I did complete web as a freelancer (together with my friend) didn't want to pay. So we told them that we are going to give away the author rights and complete site to other first web company company we meet (I even don't know if that is possible.)... they resent the job-agreements (claiming that previous vere invalid) and paid...

Also, when I was a student, I was working on a complete site for a big company called Plastika a.s. Nitra (PVC stuff). I finished the site (it had slovak & english version) but the page was never used and I didn't get the money as the web company for which I was doing the job went belly up... No more work for a smile, since then.

I register domain in the clients name. They payments are on the client and the provider I just have access to site administration until the project is finished.