When is it all going to end?

[Turan]

Off the Xara topic, but looking for advice from the likes of Gary and others on when you say the job is done.

Like Gary's recently posted new site I offer the service of 3-5 alternative logo designs.

My poroblem is not so much with the logo as with the 'complete' web design. When is the web page (or logo) complete? I've been doing some web work and the client wants a small tweek here and a small tweek there.

So when is it all over? If you chage say $X/page how big is the page.

Turan

[Turan]

Off the Xara topic, but looking for advice from the likes of Gary and others on when you say the job is done.

Like Gary's recently posted new site I offer the service of 3-5 alternative logo designs.

My poroblem is not so much with the logo as with the 'complete' web design. When is the web page (or logo) complete? I've been doing some web work and the client wants a small tweek here and a small tweek there.

So when is it all over? If you chage say $X/page how big is the page.

Turan

[juergen]

Turan,

its over when your contract or you say its over.
Like with every other job you have to agree what a customer will get for his money BEFORE you start.
If not you will do small tweaks here and small tweaks there ...

If you did not do that nail him down at the delivery of the current tweak. Just tell him what you charge for next one.

If you dont you will probably tweak a looong time [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

juergen

[rgremill]

I wonder if you would have the same problem if you charged by the hour.

Robert

[Turan]

The contract I made was to supply a logo, some custom graphics not available in any clip-art package or anywhere on the web (thanks to our good friend Xara) and 7 pages.

Do you usually specify a word limit on a page? eg. if your page has more than 200 words it will counted as two of the 7?

I want to do a good job to build up a portfolio.

Has anyone got a contract that they use that they can share? Or a web page for contracts.

Turan

[gwpriester]

Turan

My contract specifies the client gets a range of designs or site page looks to pick from and one set of revisions to their selected design or page look. Revisions after that are billed at an hourly rate.

You can charge a flat hourly rate as well, but in the case of a logo or web site design, let's say it takes you two hours to design a logo, and you're charging $75.00 an hour, is the finished logo only worth $150.00?

The site I designed took basically 3 full days to from start to finish. But that that's really 3 days and 35 years when you count the time I have devoted to my craft. This is why I like to charge a set rate for the job and then bill additionally for revisions.

I have found too, when clients know they are paying for revisions, they are more careful to pick and choose what they want revised. And if they just like to nit pick away, fine, the clock is ticking :-)

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

<a href="http://www.gwpriester.com">
Be it ever so humble...</a>

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[Wolfgang]

Turan,

it's basically like Juergen said.

I always start with 1-2 hours first personal contact. In this time, I try to figure out, what the client wants to achieve with the webpage, what needs to be in and what can be left out.
I take a lot of notes there and I always leave with a pack of current datasheets, folders or the like.

Back in the office, I sit down and make a sketch, like an organigram, where I can see the navigational structure, the number of pages and what will be *on* these pages.
Note, that this is not a sketch by graphical means, it's purely for my calculation.

Based on this calculation, the client receives an offer, that states clearly the number of pages, what will be on them and also what will NOT be on them (like Flash, database connection etc.) If he wants things like that, they have to be calculated seperately.
Only if I already *know* that he will need a database or a shop-system it will be included.
The offer also states what has to be provided from the client (photos, text, diagrams ...) and how (printed photo, digital, slide ..)
Based on all this, the offer will close with a lump-sum for "the project".

I sincerely believe, that my clients should pay for a complete, functioning website and not for one page more or less.
I never made *any* website with less than 20 pages, even if the sites were meant to be rather simple. There *has* to be a minimum amount of information to justify a site at all.

If the offer is accepted, I will receive the "raw-material" and start working. I will provide one to a maximum of three designs for the client to choose from. In four years, i did never have to make more than those three and my "personal favourite" was chosen by 90% of the clients.

When the final design is accepted, the pages are created, based on the overall design. I normally will end up with some more pages than I thought, but that's OK, and the client will not get billed for it. Up to a certain limit, I will also do tweaks here and there - that the client requests - without extra cost.

But at some point, I will tell the client that from here it will cost extra. Backed up by my very detailled offer, the clients normally accept.

So it is my decision *how much* more I do for free. If *I* think, that the extra work should be done and it will be for good, this can be quite a bit.

I had one site though, where the final cost was nearly double the sum on the offer - due to more and more additions during creation (by the client).

Long talk here, but boiled down it means:

<ul><LI>State VERY clearly WHAT you will do at WHAT cost!<LI>Decide yourself HOW MUCH MORE you will do without extra cost (normally max. 5%-10% more ..)<LI>If the client demands extras (and some really do that intentionally later), look him in the eye and tell him "Certainly, I'll send you an offer for the additional cost, it will approximately be $ xxx ...)[/list]

Most important: Always try to see what your website/logo/whatever is WORTH FOR THE CUSTOMER and not what it ist worth to you ...
That's what Gary meant with his $150,- logo example.

Wolfgang

That's why I hate *nice* clients. If you personally like them, it's so damn hard to be tough ...

[Turan]

I think my problem is my client is a small business. Rather than tell him to go away and collect all info together and give it to be for a concentrated 2days turn around into a web site I'm giving him a bit of Pr or marketing advice (like I have any to give [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ) and not charging him for it [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img] .

Thanks for the advice.

Turan

[Erik Heyninck]

Turan,

Of course Gary and Wolfgang are right. They are well established designers with an impressive portfolio etc, so clients go to them because they know they are specialists and charge for a guaranteed quality.

But life is tough for a beginner. Without underestimating yourself (or overestimating the client who often senses at the first glance what you think you're worth), try to get jobs, make sites for charities etc. But keep on believing in yourself and radiate that. Talent is important, but that doesn't pay the bill.
So: nothing wrong with doing things for free, but I always try to rotate 180

If you don't work against time, time often works for you.

[Erik Heyninck]

So Infopoop makes still mistakes after all. here is the end of the message:


but I always try to rotate 180

If you don't work against time, time often works for you.