OT: a procedural concern

[Crow Haven]

I'm really glad everyone expresses their views here. Everything was just fine until....

I try to be "understanding"...people sometimes just have "a bad day" and say things they really don't mean...no one is perfect. I think Ross and others here made many good points regarding "fanaticism"--it's a dangerous thing. We are a global group and all the patriotic fervor the U.S. has whipped up isn't agreed with by all. I missed the part about the Canadian Flag and the U.S. olympic team's behavior--I would have thought that was really inappropriate also!

Anyway--this is a graphics forum. We discuss art and art-related topics, and we were doing just that. This isn't really the place to try to psychoanalyze others.

We all do our best to be helpful and it works here better than you will find elsewhere. We are polite, and I think people control themselves pretty well even under rude attacks. It would be nice to think that you can change others behavior, but you can't. People have to decide they need to and want to change before anything of the sort could happen. This forum isn't about this. My experience has not shown that rude people will stop it if you just keep taking it, ignore it, or be extra-attentive to them. They (adults) know what they are doing, and for whatever reason it works for them, and has been how they get through life...whether we like it or not.
It's not the mission of these forums to analyze people and make them change. We can feel sorry for those types...but we can't make them "see the light" if we haven't already in the numerous topics discussed and enjoyed by all calmly and peacefully. As an adult, Fontman knew what he was doing...which was completely unnecessary. Do we need to put up with attacks? I don't think we do. Will he suddenly become "Mr. Sensitive" and behave? Don't hold your breath.

I can't solve others problems for them, even if I wanted to. All of us here have very important and involved lives of our own to tend to. Life is indeed too short to let certain types of people try and make you miserable...

Let's move on GroWeb! The last post I made to the mentioned flag tutorial was just about your image there which I liked...I haven't been back to give audience to anymore rudeness from Fontman. I won't put up with it from anyone. None of us needs to...the "welcome mat" is out, but that doesn't mean we have to be "doormats".

---As The Crow Sees It---
Maya

[Ross Macintosh]

My comments about patriotic fervor were not directed at you or Gary and your flags. I saw them presented as illustrations and completely on-topic (ie. Xara graphics). I am able to admire them and not see them as propaganda. On the otherhand, Fontman has presented himself as somewhat of a fanatic with a political agenda that I personally feel is out of place in these forums. I like most of Fontman's graphics and have commented my appreciations in some threads featuring his work. I'm impressed by his graphics skills and his enthusiasm. But with his words he presents many of his images as propoganda. It is not enough for him to present his images as designs and examples of his graphics skills - he presents them for his message. Okay, I know what to expect when I see one of his threads and I don't get worked up about it.

When he jumped into Old Dog's thread, I suspect the Fontman was expecting the patriotic ra-ra-ra stuff he seems obsessed with. I imagine he was rather taken aback to see a thread featuring such good drawings of the American flag was primarily a discussion on copyright and not "We are the greatest people on Earth" fervor. I know from reading his threads that the Fontman recently retired from service in the Marines. I suspect he would be back in that service in an instant if he were needed. Anxious to continue service to his country, he seems to be doing what he can. He is using his graphics skills creating patriotic images and military-related graphics. I really admire his dedication to such service. No doubt the results of his efforts are meaningful to a great number of people. He should not however expect all others to share his passion. He is scary to me because I can't help but sense a "you're either with me or you're against me" attitude. He has no hesitation to question the patriotism of others he doesn't know. As we've seen, and not unexpectedly, some find that questioning insulting.

I really don't think his intent is to be a pest around here. Perhaps someday he'll get down from his high horse and will realize how disrespectful and arrogant his attitudes have been. (My father is a retired Colonel. I know if Fontman questioned him in such a manner as he has done here, my Dad would kick his ass across a few state lines!). [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

My earlier rant about 'nationism' was just that - a rant. Overall I very much enjoy the coming together of different nationalities that happens here. I just warn that any overt "my country is better than yours" stuff will fragment the nice coalition we have happening here.

Regarding the US women's hockey team... Reading appologies really makes me uncomfortable. I'm sure the vast majority of Canadians know that the vast majority of Americans would not approve of such behaviour. The reason you never heard of the incident is the American media chose to not tell you. Here in Canada we watched both American & Canadian coverage - the 'flicker' allowed watching of both coverages by flicking back & forth. (Someday I'll get a tv with picture-in-picture -- so I can watch four chanels more easily [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]). The US coverage lost all interest in the game when it became apparent the American team wasn't going to win. The network jumped coverage to preliminary skijumping and didn't show the heartbreak of the American team (who had previously beat the Canadian team eight times in a row). NBC didn't even show the medal presentation - even though the game had one of the largest television audiences of all the Olympics.

I had heard something about the Canadian coin in the ice. I hope that did not bother too many Americans. I didn't hear how that played out in the US media.

Regards,
Your friend - Ross "Global Citizen" Macintosh

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

[This message was edited by Ross Macintosh on March 09, 2002 at 19:14.]

[Egg Bramhill]

The Fontman enters this forum approx every six months, drops his posion, and awaits the automatic response.
Solution: Ignore his postings.

[Old Dog]

I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable in my apology. I just wanted you to know that the vast majority of American people don't condone that type of behavior any more than I do. Can you imagine the reaction of the American people and press if any other nation's team were to disrespect the American flag in such a way. I can! We expect respect for our flag, we then in turn must respect the symbol of all other nations.

I do know what you mean about the television coverage. Our networks are extremely bias, which I guess is normal. They also, didn't give adverse coverage to the coin thing. I only saw it because Wayne Gretzky had mentioned it in an interview. I'm a little concerned that they chose not to show us the flag incident. We had a right to know how our representatives were behaving, and what the rest of the world was seeing. We wonder here, why people in other places have certain opinions of us.

I don't know what to think of Fontman. He could very well be an intelligent and talented person, but if he is, it's lost on his lack of social graces. He will never get his point across if he isn't going to respect the people he wants to get his view across to.

I'm just a burned out old hippie from the 60's who wishes the world could learn to get along better. I'll keep doing my part, but we've got a long way to go.

Jack

[GroWeb]

What a response my topic has received! I don't want to dwell too much on all this, because I wouldn't want it to cut unnecessarily into our Xara time. I would, however, like to make a clarification of my purpose in starting this thread.

I do not intend to inspire this forum to become a therapy group for the Fontman or anyone else. However, I would like to see it make the most of its supportive function for its members. When the tone is positive and mutually respectful, even when dealing with sensitive topics -- the Recycled Patriotic Tutorial thread is a great example of this, with the exception of the Fontman-inspired skirmish -- then this forum constitutes the supportive community it ought to be.

However, when an interloper like the Fontman is able to successfully spread his negativity by inspiring verbally violent expressions of anger from others -- especially when the put-downs of the offender start to pop up in other unrelated threads -- this community takes on a very negative tone, and temporarily loses its supportive quality. This is my "procedural concern". In these cases, it is not the behaviour of the interloper that rattles me most; it is the reactive behaviour of the other members.

As pointed out above by RAMWolff, each bit of negativity, however tiny, the likes of Fontman is able to get out of this forum's members, feeds the flames of his anti-social enthusiasm. Hence his excitement ("Woo-hoo!" said he) when he successfully got even a little bit of Gary's attention in the afore-mentioned "Recycled" thread (no criticism of your carefully measured response to him intended here Gary).

The idea put forward by Egg and others that we ignore the likes of Fontman is completely consistent with what I am suggesting, and I think it also fits the totally reasonable concerns expressed by Maya and others here. We are "doormats" for such a person as Fontman appears to be when we let him upset us, not when we respond only to his appropriate behaviour and ignore the rest.

The only alternatives to ignoring people like Fontman, that do not involve buying into his game, are either, as I suggested above, to give him attention only for his appropriate behaviour, or to find a way to give teeth to the response to his inappropriate behaviour. Only the moderators of the forum can give a toothful response to unacceptable behaviour. In order to do so, they would need to be able and willing to banish the transgressor from the forum, and to use this capability to warn, watch, then if necessary remove offenders from the membership list. Otherwise we are down to two effective types of response, meaning responses that do not allow negative and antisocial behaviour to infect this supportive community; and this was my whole point.

Sorry to have taken so much of everyone's time on this. Thank you all for so kindly allowing me to air my concerns.

Sincerely,
Glen.

[gwpriester]

What these "thrashes" server to do is to unite the Xara Community and to give some of us hot heads a chance to vent once in a while. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

<a href="http://www.gwpriester.com">
www.gwpriester.com </a>


XaraXone

[Old Dog]

I don't think anyone, in response to Fontman's rudeness, was over the top in expressing their feelings towards Fontman's interruption of an, otherwise, friendly and peaceful discussion.

It showed me that everyone, more or less felt the same way about his attack upon the members. I think everyone was coming to the defense of all that had been attacked. I, for one, think that is an admirable quality as opposed to a negative social behavior.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, even Fontman, but there is a wrong way and a right way to express it. If you choose the wrong way, you will evoke a display of anger from the most emotionally well adjusted persons.

Respectfully,

Jack