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  1. #1
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    The situation with Fontman in the "Recycled Patriotic Tutorial" thread in the gallery (here) brings out both the schoolteacher and the student in me. I hate to allow a potential learning moment to slip by unused.

    Each time such people as Fontman, or Peter P., or "Ross Jr." (as he has come to be known) has exhibited behaviour in this forum that has offended others, it seems to have brought out the worst in some of those others. For example, the rude terms used by some of these transgressors of the social code frequently inspire the use of equally rude terms by others. The application of verbal violence by one of these social transgressors often is reacted to with equally violent verbiage from others.

    In other words, these obviously rather unwelcome guests are really just expressing extreme versions of characteristics that exist within us all, but that we'd rather not admit to having. So we happily locate the problem in these people, and oftentimes exploit the opportunity to unleash some of our own poison. This makes us no better than the seeming transgressors; and it shows that they are no worse than we are (which is true, no matter how they behave).

    If we want these people to behave differently, we need to behave differently. Fighting fire with fire leads to a conflagration. What works best is to fight fire with water, or other means of starving the fire of its oxygen, such as ignoring the inappropriate behaviour until it changes or goes away; or identifying it to the transgressor in a more polite and considerate, though firm and direct way, perhaps in a private message. Often, the person is literally blind to how his or her behaviour affects others, and needs to be told in a palatable way that won't cause the person to immediately plant their shield and load their cannon.

    In truth it usually seems more effective to cooperate only with appropriate behaviour, rather than wasting time trying to beat inappropriate behaviour into submission. Often, the offending person has a long-lived pattern of blurting out offensive statements, angering people, and being rudely told off. Until some part of the pattern changes, it will go on in the same way ad infinitum. We have the option of changing the "being rudely told off" part of the pattern, and thereby gaining some growth for ourselves from the experience.

    In what seems to have been a rather lisping attempt, Fontman appears to me to have been trying to express his concern for the members of the armed forces who are at this moment risking (and losing) their lives overseas. If he is a current member of the armed forces, he is probably feeling this concern for his comrades very keenly right now. He is perhaps especially feeling his own powerlessness as he sits unable to help his mates from this side of the ocean.

    I am as guilty as anyone here for not responding to Fontman's anxiety and concern. I was too busy being selfishly scandalized by his social faux pas to recognize what he was trying to say, and to respond empathically to it. Admittedly, I feel that it would have been good -- after trying to help him feel heard and understood -- to ask him to present his concerns in a more socially acceptable manner. Perhaps next time I'll be quicker getting past my blustery and self-satisfied first reactions. In this way, I may or may not be able to help Fontman, or whomever it may be, learn to enjoy the benefits of deeper social participation. At the very least, I will walk away from the interaction knowing that I behaved better than ever before.

    I hope my little rant here has not caused offense of any kind. I have felt the desire to say something for quite a while, mainly during the months that I was a lurker here. My hope is that my words will lead at least to some deep thought, and perhaps even to further constructive discussion of the kind that characterizes this forum at its best.

    Sincerely,
    Glen.
    There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think there are two kinds of people in the world, and those who don’t.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    326

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    The situation with Fontman in the "Recycled Patriotic Tutorial" thread in the gallery (here) brings out both the schoolteacher and the student in me. I hate to allow a potential learning moment to slip by unused.

    Each time such people as Fontman, or Peter P., or "Ross Jr." (as he has come to be known) has exhibited behaviour in this forum that has offended others, it seems to have brought out the worst in some of those others. For example, the rude terms used by some of these transgressors of the social code frequently inspire the use of equally rude terms by others. The application of verbal violence by one of these social transgressors often is reacted to with equally violent verbiage from others.

    In other words, these obviously rather unwelcome guests are really just expressing extreme versions of characteristics that exist within us all, but that we'd rather not admit to having. So we happily locate the problem in these people, and oftentimes exploit the opportunity to unleash some of our own poison. This makes us no better than the seeming transgressors; and it shows that they are no worse than we are (which is true, no matter how they behave).

    If we want these people to behave differently, we need to behave differently. Fighting fire with fire leads to a conflagration. What works best is to fight fire with water, or other means of starving the fire of its oxygen, such as ignoring the inappropriate behaviour until it changes or goes away; or identifying it to the transgressor in a more polite and considerate, though firm and direct way, perhaps in a private message. Often, the person is literally blind to how his or her behaviour affects others, and needs to be told in a palatable way that won't cause the person to immediately plant their shield and load their cannon.

    In truth it usually seems more effective to cooperate only with appropriate behaviour, rather than wasting time trying to beat inappropriate behaviour into submission. Often, the offending person has a long-lived pattern of blurting out offensive statements, angering people, and being rudely told off. Until some part of the pattern changes, it will go on in the same way ad infinitum. We have the option of changing the "being rudely told off" part of the pattern, and thereby gaining some growth for ourselves from the experience.

    In what seems to have been a rather lisping attempt, Fontman appears to me to have been trying to express his concern for the members of the armed forces who are at this moment risking (and losing) their lives overseas. If he is a current member of the armed forces, he is probably feeling this concern for his comrades very keenly right now. He is perhaps especially feeling his own powerlessness as he sits unable to help his mates from this side of the ocean.

    I am as guilty as anyone here for not responding to Fontman's anxiety and concern. I was too busy being selfishly scandalized by his social faux pas to recognize what he was trying to say, and to respond empathically to it. Admittedly, I feel that it would have been good -- after trying to help him feel heard and understood -- to ask him to present his concerns in a more socially acceptable manner. Perhaps next time I'll be quicker getting past my blustery and self-satisfied first reactions. In this way, I may or may not be able to help Fontman, or whomever it may be, learn to enjoy the benefits of deeper social participation. At the very least, I will walk away from the interaction knowing that I behaved better than ever before.

    I hope my little rant here has not caused offense of any kind. I have felt the desire to say something for quite a while, mainly during the months that I was a lurker here. My hope is that my words will lead at least to some deep thought, and perhaps even to further constructive discussion of the kind that characterizes this forum at its best.

    Sincerely,
    Glen.
    There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think there are two kinds of people in the world, and those who don’t.

  3. #3
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    Austria
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    Hi GroWeb,

    I don't say you are wrong in what you say, and sometimes I really do feel the 'beast in me'. This is not meant ironic, sometimes I may react calm to an offense, the other time I will strike back full force. This may depend on my current mood or maybe trigger words or something in the offenders statement.

    But regarding this forum, this is the way I see the situation:
    It is the only forum, I am participating on an ongoing basis, because it's so different than the others I know. When I have a programming problem, I will go to a german speaking forum where the real pros are. When I ask a question there (and I always tell them that I am new and not very experienced) I will get mostly polemic and useless response like "I would not do that this way" or "I dont know too". If sometimes they *want* to help me, they post code fragments out of the context and I still don't know how to use it.

    Allright, now let's check the situation here. Some days ago, Shannon - a total newcomer - asked a question in the X3D-forum. Not only did she get immediate response, but out came the beautiful and detailed tutorial from Eric that must have taken him hours !!
    You won't find that anywhere else. Fullstop.

    Waiting for my point ?? Here it comes.

    Because everything is perfect here, it is much more visible if some 'bad apples' (as I call them) show up. The first two you mentioned are partisans who show up once in a while just to spread the brown smelly stuff. Then they disappear until they strike again.
    As much as I try, I can't see Fontman "expressing his concern" or anything. He had a bad day and used this place to let off steam. If he needs professional help (and I guess he does), there are specialists for it. We are just doing graphics here.
    The member with the strong language you are refering to is a helpful and contributing guy who normally is calm and constructive. I guess, like me, he feels that someone attacks this beautiful place and he won't let that happen.

    As for Ross jr., the situation here is different. Everybody tried to help him for weeks and weeks. We did more or less exactly what you are proposing. Did he listen? No! Did he learn? No! Did he thank us? No!
    Steve Newport was his intercessor for the longest time when everybody else was already mad at him. And even Steve found out eventually that *nobody* could help this guy, because he did not *want* help.

    If I go to a community/party/classroom etc. in real life and behave like this. what would happen ??

    From your work you are certainly biased to look for the good side in everyone. That is very good and I am sure you are a great teacher.
    But Talkgraphics is a discussion forum for graphics related stuff. And it's good at that. I don't think it is my our the other's duty nor profession to give psychological assistance to the 'outsiders'. Am I too simpleminded or insensitive ??

    It is a bit complicated for me to write about such matter. My english is OK, but I am used to write about computers, graphics and stuff and not about feelings and emotions. So I hope I used the right words and you understand the sentences above the way they are meant.

    Wolfgang

  4. #4
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    GroWeb

    Your points are of course well taken.

    Fontman is merely a trouble maker who gets bored once in a while and drops into this conference, posts an inflamatory message (he referred to me as the old fart once) and then is gone, hence my mention of "potshots". To the best of my knowledge, he does not even use Xara. He also pops into the other conferences from time to time, pops off and is gone.

    And as much as I would like to believe that his concern is with his comrades in arms, he has been doing this long before September 11.

    He does not include an e-mail address, nor was I able to locate one on his web site. I tried to track him down so I could write to him out of the forums and ask him to calm down, but he appears to be underground.

    Gary

    Gary Priester

    Moderator Person

    <A HREF="http://www.gwpriester.com" TARGET=_blank>
    www.gwpriester.com </a>


    XaraXone

  5. #5
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    Prince Edward Island, Canada --- The land of lawn tractors
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    to only see the good in people. Sometimes it is hard.

    I'm not so sure Fontman is a "trouble-maker" although that is the effect he has. I think he is obsessed with his nationalistic & pro-military dogma and takes every opportuniy to spread his narrow-minded propoganda. One of his tactics is to accuse others of not being patriotic enough. He seems to be oblivious that his audience in these forums is a global one. A great many of us, no doubt, find his flag-waving nationalism excessive and offensive. I know I do. As offensive as the American women's hockey team putting the Canadian flag on their dressing room floor before their gold medal loss to Canada in the Olympics.

    As with many people who are religious fanatics, I doubt the Fontman is able to understand that others' viewpoints can be equally legitimate. He is scary because it comes across that he cannot tolerate other viewpoints.

    In these forums we should be able to exercise some freedom of speach. That freedom isn't the nationalistic "God-Bless-America-Freedom" that the Fontman swims in. It is a freedom that comes from being a global community. I think when we participate in these global forums we need to set our nationalism aside. For the sake of the quality of dialogue we need to try and understand the biases and ethnocentrism of our perspectives and recognize non-political, non-religious, and non-nationalistic nature of our dialogue on graphics.

    Regards, Ross

    <a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

  6. #6
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    Bigots and generally rude and selfish people, especially the ones that try to interfere with people’s way of thinking and being, make me lose it. Was my language to Fontman appropriate? – Perhaps not... Go back and read my past posts, and see how many times I have slipped on the scum that sometimes creap in here... not many...

    Fontman – I’m sorry... for you... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] (Would probably have been summed it up better...)

    English is my third language – Perhaps I need to take a creative writing course, so that I can express myself more appropriately.

    Risto

    risto@ristoklint.com

    Visit my web site!

  7. #7
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    GroWeb, I think you are right about many things. Personnally I didn't open the thread "recycled patriotic tutorial" before I saw your present post. Why? Perhaps because I don't feel concerned so much by patriotism. Nevertheless I love my country, its history and culture (I said it again recently in my post over fonts and typography). But here in Belgium we have the experience of a mini-war between two communities, the Flemish people who speak dutch and the Walloon people who speak french. All two people are manipulated and abused by politicians who have a special feeling for animal like identification to a group.
    The title of my post was the title of a song of the so interesting french singer Georges Brassens. This song express how bad can be an uncritical and exaggerated identification to an human group or community.
    In my attitude I allways try to keep a kind and open identification to what constitutes my environment (and sometimes I fail). But as an amateur biologist I am very interested in ethology, which considerates toghether animal and human behaviour. At the lights of this science I think Human should become modest and moderate.

    Kindly,
    ivan

    Be kind with your animal origins, re-invent the Rose.

  8. #8
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    RWC, CA, USA
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    I can certainly understand your concerns for this misbegotten man that pops in, throws a curve ball, then pops out. (He did post one more stating:

    Wrong...

    Not gone for a few months, Mr. Priester!
    Woo-hoo!

    The Fontman

    I walk a spiritual path, but was also raised by a very influential Social Sciences Major (Marijo Koglar McCormick, mentined in Who's Who of America, she was my adopted Mother) So I can see both sides. His seems to be one coming from a deep place of inner anger. He see's us all having an intelligent, albiet very long, discussion about copyright issues and he desides to throw us a curve ball. If he were not such an angry person inside he may have stated his view allot nicer like your very nice illustration, GroWeb, didn't tell you how much I enjoyed that "pacman" of yours. Instead he used the excuse of our need to pay closer attention to the 'big picture' and get more involved there. There isn't a whole lot us civilians can do except take the advice of our president "Don't let them see you upset and crying and get on with your lives, live your life, don't live in constant fear because that's what they want us to do, live in abject fear" So I live my life and that includes being a hairdresser, spirtiual man and an artist. It doesn't mean I don't have my concerns or feel the pain that these folks that were directly affected feel. Of course I do.

    I understand both sides. From his point of veiw, he seems to be an angry 'imp' that likes to take out whatever he is feeling at that moment on unsuspecting forums and where ever else. And I can certainly see your side GroWeb, but we are on the web and mostly to get through to people like this it, in most cases, it needs to be a face to face meeting. That is not possibe here. So the best thing we can all do next time he shows up is read his posting, then move on to the subject at hand. Maybe he will actually "get it" someday that throwing a bunch of anger in to a happy mix is not going to get the notice that he was hoping for.

    He will either just go away and leave us alone or maybe, BIG MAYBE, join the discussion and learn from it and maybe realize that this is better than his old ways.

    My original post responce to him was actually this long and drawn out thing that once I re-read it realized that I was just feeding the anger. So I erased all the other rudeness I was directing back to him and just did the Poof!!! Fontman Begone, least a house fall on you (a line from the Wizard of Oz, as told to the Wicked Witch from Glinda) It seemed right at that moment but now I ralize I shouldn't have fed even that little morsel to the anger. It only takes a spark to start a fire. Wasn't worth my time or emotional input.

    So that said, lets get back to having fun and learning from one another.

    Gotta go find that missing mic [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    RAMWolff [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    Richard

    ---Wolff On The Prowl---

  9. #9
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    Jan 2002
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    St. Louis, Missouri USA
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    that has posted to this thread has made very valid points. I respect each and everyone of you.

    Although my painting was what started the entire thread, in discussion, when I posted it I was not trying to make a nationalistic statement. It was just that I really liked the tutorial Gary did and the resulting image. Perhaps I titled the thread wrongly, and for that I apologize to everyone.

    I, for one, really love this site because of it's global flavor, not in spite of it. I truly hope we continue to gain more and more members from all parts of the world. Some of the most beautiful images I've seen here have come from wonderful artist's not residing in the U.S. Does that say something?

    Unfortunately, American's in general, sometimes exhibit an arrogance that truly embarrasses me. Ross point's out a perfect example of this in what the American Woman's Hockey team did in the Olypics. Ross, I watched almost every minute of the televised Olympics and I must have missed that one little piece. I was unaware of this particular event until now. To me, it is an outrage that the team did this. I, as an American am horribly embarrassed by this act and I can't believe the coaches allowed it to happen in games that are meant to bring all nations together in peace and harmony. I'm sure it really wasn't meant as any disrespect on my countryman's part, it's just that, in this country we really, for some reason, like to taunt our opponents, especially in sporting events. Canada is a great and true friend of the American people and I apologize to you and all of your countryman for the behavior of the team representing the U.S. Your country really desreves a public apology from the team, coaches and everyone involved.

    I have to say though, that something that was revealed after the Canadian Men's Hockey team won the gold, was that they had buried, at center ice a Canadian 2 dollar coin before the Olympics began and it was there throughout the series, I also believe this should not have been done. I think it just points out that we all need to learn to respect all people regardless of any political beliefs or what country they happen to come from.

    I am a patriotic American, but I try not to push it too much on others. As for this "Fontman" character, he truly insulted me with his, how many of you have fought for our great country. As a veteran of the Viet Nam war, he stepped way over the line with me. I will not get into the whole political aspects of Nam, this just isn't the place. But, he was way out of line. As a military person, he disrespected me, and 57 thousand plus, of my brother's whose names now reside on a black marble wall in Washington, D.C.

    It is also very easy for him to wave the flag from his safe and warm home here in the states, if he's so patriotic why doesn't he volunteer for the next flight to Afghanistan? Why, because they don't want him either!

    I hope we can put this whole political thing to rest. I apologize to everyone here if anything I have said, either now or on any other post, was too nationalistic. It was never meant that way.

    The manner in which people from all parts of the world conduct themselves as members here, should be an example to the rest of the world. It would be a much better world to live in for all of us.

    Thanks to everyone for listening to my ramblings. You are all, a great bunch of folks.

    Jack

  10. #10
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    Your own attitude wasn't the cause of any disturbing things. Don't be afraid, I am not an anti-nationalist. Only I allways try to see what happens outside of my human community.
    Sports and politics are equally wrong while their goal is killing the others. But I like very much to see people surpassing themselves in their sport and (much exceptionnally) politicians truly opening their arms to their opponents.

    Kindly,
    ivan

 

 

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