Comercial printing and color change

[John F Dye]

Hi all,
I ran into a problem recently and thought I would pass it along to this forum for opinions. I just completed 6 panels for Battleship Cove that have a background that was suposed to be a navy blue. By that I mean that master color is a dark gray blue and used a conicule blend using various shades for that color. The CMYK is:
C = 68
M = 68
Y = 48
K = 0
I looked at this background on several different computers (the Cove has 10 seats of XaraX and I have one) and the background color look pretty much as I had intended it to look. Print out using an Epson 1520 four color inkjet printer also look nearly the same. I exported the files as TIFFs and looked at them using several different viewer and graphics applications, and once again they look thta same. The files were sent to a printer that we have used before with good results. The images were printed on large PVC panels and laminated. When we got the panels back the background came out, what could best be described, as a rose color. The printer says that equal values of Cyan and Magenta will give a rose color. I cannot really disput this, but if that is so, why would the printouts made on the Epson not show this. I have not done enough with comercial printing to know if this is really the case. I understand that monitor colors and printed colors are often not the same, but this is very different, and strangely all the other colors seem to be as expected.
If any of you would share your experiences I would appreciate it.
Thanks
John D

[John F Dye]

Hi all,
I ran into a problem recently and thought I would pass it along to this forum for opinions. I just completed 6 panels for Battleship Cove that have a background that was suposed to be a navy blue. By that I mean that master color is a dark gray blue and used a conicule blend using various shades for that color. The CMYK is:
C = 68
M = 68
Y = 48
K = 0
I looked at this background on several different computers (the Cove has 10 seats of XaraX and I have one) and the background color look pretty much as I had intended it to look. Print out using an Epson 1520 four color inkjet printer also look nearly the same. I exported the files as TIFFs and looked at them using several different viewer and graphics applications, and once again they look thta same. The files were sent to a printer that we have used before with good results. The images were printed on large PVC panels and laminated. When we got the panels back the background came out, what could best be described, as a rose color. The printer says that equal values of Cyan and Magenta will give a rose color. I cannot really disput this, but if that is so, why would the printouts made on the Epson not show this. I have not done enough with comercial printing to know if this is really the case. I understand that monitor colors and printed colors are often not the same, but this is very different, and strangely all the other colors seem to be as expected.
If any of you would share your experiences I would appreciate it.
Thanks
John D

[John F Dye]

I tried creating the same color in Corel Draw 8 and got a slightly warmer blue. But not the Rose color
John

[gwpriester]

John
68, 68, and 48, I would guess would produce a grayed version of blue.

68% Cyan and Magenta would produce a medium deep blue purple and the yellow should dull it down.

However, for commercial printing where the printed color is critical, I always specify my colors using either the Pantone or TruMatch CMYK values.

Both TruMatch and Pantone have printed swatches of a wide range of colors and values. Pick your color from the swatch book, then use these values. But be sure the colors are in CMYK and not spot colors which are intended to be printed as solid, specially mixed printing inks.

Viewing colors to be commercially printing using Show Printer Colors (Window menu) will give a somewhat more accurate idea how the printed colors will look.

Gary

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[Peter Clifton]

John

The gammut range for a desktop inkjet is greater than that for CMYK press printing.

The inks on desktop printers are 'brighter' than press inks.

There are also many settings in the desktop printer driver that could affect the colours printed.

As well as Tru-Match and Pantone, if working in CMYK a lot I would also suggest getting a professional CMYK Tint book, in the UK they cost around 75 UKP.

There was also a great post on colour proofing in Xara X that I saved by Emel this year. The title of the thread begins 'EPS Export saga'. It was posted on 1st of February in this forum. It may also be of use.

Peter

Ok. hope this pasted link to the message works Link to Emel's post on colour proofing in Xara

[John F Dye]

Gary,
Thanks for your reply. Your advise will be heeded in the future. The actual order was place by the curator, I did not talk to the printer when the order was place, unfortunately. If I had half a brain I would have thought about this possibility. I discussing it with printer since, we agreed I would give him an example printed on the Epson.
Peter,
Thanks also.
The printer is set for its default colors and consistantly give an accurate representation of what is seen on the screen. I suspect the commercial printer had a problem, but that is not a productive avenue to pursue.
I read the suggested post and have imported Corel Draw's Pantone Palattes for future use. I will also look into the Cove geting a pantone color book
That post brings up the question of output. What is the advantage of EPS/PS vs. Tiff bitmaps? I have stayed away from PS because of file size and Xara expotrt problems in the past.
And is there a consistant color shift between Macs and PCs?
John D

[Turan]

With all the work I getting these days (three clinets to put it in perspective) all of which are not only looking for a logo for the web but also for letter heads and business cards etc. I'm starting to have to think the question.

"Do I need to keep anthing special in mind when designing a logo that will also go to print?" In light of the recent collection of logo discussions, is there anthing to remember? E.g.

Keep it to one or two colours?
Avoid photo's in your logo's? I see several Gary included incorporating photo's and or blends in logos. How does this escualte the cost of printing? andhow does this complicate the colour matching?

Turan

Thougt I would add to this similar thread rather than start a new one.

[gwpriester]

Turan

This is a tricky thing because most of us work in Xara's default RGB color space instead of using Show Printer Colors.

If you are designing for both print and Web, I recommend using the default RGB space if you are working with flat colors and then using a color swatching solution like Pantone CMYK or Trumatch to specify CMYK colors that come the closest to matching what is on the screen.

If you are working with gradient fills, then Show Printer Colors is better because it will give you a better idea how the color will look when printed.

Four color printing is always going to be more expensive than 1 or 2 color printing as a rule. But there are scores of printers that only print 4-color in "gang runs" where your job runs with many others through the press at the same time and as such you get very affordable color printing. And these companies can work from EPS files submitted via the Internet.

One company I have worked with in the past is Copy Craft. Check out their site and you can get a good idea what kinds of services and prices they offer. I see that in addition to color business cards, they now offer envelopes and letterheads.

Gary

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[mgeduld]

A major myth is that all printers use CMYK inks. Actually, MANY desktop inkjets use RGB. Professional print houses use CMYK, so I guess that's why people think all printers use these inks.

I don't know much about the Epson 1520, but you should check carefully. If it uses RGB, then don't convert to CMYK before printing!

And don't judge the primary colors by the number of ink cartriges. Many inkjets DO have four inks, but they STILL use the RGB system -- the fourth ink is black (RGB and Black).

Marcus Geduld
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[Turan]

For the beginner?

"then using a color swatching solution like Pantone CMYK or Trumatch to specify CMYK colors that come the closest to matching what is on the screen."

What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean you draw it in RGB then hold up a colour match card to the screen and say to the printer that shape there should be ABCD in CMYK?

Turan