Overprint and Color Management Questions

I've got 3 questions. I'm in a pre-press class and obviously we're using the 'standard' adobe suite for everything, which means I get to enjoy Illustrator's bizarre and quite cluttered interface while learning about color seps and preparing graphics for spot color prints and such.

So my question is this: Of the these three things - which ones are Xara-able?
1.) Color separation printing with postscript support including options for registration marks, etc.
2.) Color libraries that reflect the inks and toners used worldwide in professional settings
3.) Overprint and Trap support for image creation to ensure a good printed transfer

My guess is 2 is probably the most likely to be around and likely not a 1st party support thing but probably a downloadable palette from a 3rd party. 1 and 3 I suspect maybe aren't as feature rich as Illustrator in these areas, so I'm asking.

In fact, anyone who's created 2 or 3 color artwork for press, if you had any issues that Xara had a difficult time handling, I think I (and others) might benefit from hearing about those experiences.

I'm still kind of in the impression that I can 'design' in Xara, but I still have to suck the corporate Adobe teet if I want to take it from design to physicality. And for what it's worth, I seem to remember Corel Draw back in 1996 for windows 3.1 had auto color separation support and overprint support, so maybe I'll get lucky here since even Corel was like, "Adobe, you slackin!"

Thanks for any help and advice on dealing with physical print issues in Xara.

I don't really have time to respond at the moment. But of those things you list, trapping is not in-application for XDP.

But in the main, what you are asking about separations are not part of a modern work-flow. You can print seps, you would need Distiller to make a pdf from it or send the postscript files themselves. Which isn't something I've done since about 1996 or so. The same will apply to trapping. Separations and trapping are done at the rip these days. Most pre-press shops disregard trapping info that is part of a pdf and apply their own.

Gee what a big question. If you use the Creative Suite for your workflow then your in for a few surprises. No Xara programmes colour manage in the way that Adobe does when you select what type of Colour Mode when you open a new doc. So when you export your design as a PDF there can be large colour shifts when you view it in Acro Pro/reader. There are a few ways to achieve the consistent colours that you want and the most obvious one to use is a Pantone book which gives the equivalent values in RGB/CMYK for that Pantone No. I agree with Mike on your questions about separations and trapping as all that gets sorted out at the RIP stage but I might have a look at it if I had a large area of transparency with text over the top. Don't know what you mean the the way of colour libraries is it profiles like "FOGRA39" etc.? If you do mean that yes but they are a bit out of date and again most profiles are replaced by the printer as they use there own. Your first question you asked about "postscript" do you mean an EPS file as I think that a PDF file is much smarter than any EPS file when it comes to print. They say that most printing now takes place more than 100 miles away from the user but I like to establish some form of communication with the ones that I used so that small problems can be dealt with quickly

Let's get something out of the way at the beginning. I have chosen to add the opening diatribe below because of the questions are intended for XDP usage in a professional environment.

However, your questions are really broad. It would help if you run into a particular issue that you ask specific questions.

Xara applications are not color managed. What this means at its most basic is that what you see on the screen in the way of color is not necessarily what you will get for output. The numbers that comprise process colors can/will be accurate and the spot color definitions for 2-3 (and more) color work will hit the PDF, but on-screen there can be a disconnect with output.

Color management, or the lack thereof, also applies to importing tagged images and having the choice of what to do with those tagged files. Currently Xara applications merely convert all tagged images to its RGB working space. The same applies to tagged graphics.

Registration marks. Registration marks, including one's own reg marks will hit all process plates. However, registration marks of one's own making will not hit spot plates. This is another area where Xara applications can fail you. One can force user-made reg marks to hit the spot color plates by creating duplicate marks using the particular spot colors used, but this should not be necessary. This lack has implications in various types of print work (packaging, screen printing, etc.), but for typical print work is not an issue.

TIFF and PSD support. CMYK TIFFs and PSDs are troublesome for Xara applications. As can be clipping paths in said files. Results of importing these files can be erratic in how they import, if at all. Spot color image support. Nope. Grayscale. Nope.

Import/export filters are dated. These sorely need updating. One has to, in professional work, be able to collaborate with others. While I am an advocate of everyone using the same application to collaborate on, Xara applications are a near closed-loop. One can usually get something into XDP to work on and if it is the final destination, all is well and good at that point. Getting work back out for use in say AI/PS or CD isn't as easy as it ought to be.

OpenType feature support. This too is currently lacking in Xara applications. While we all hope the next version supports OT Features, it is not set in stone that it will happen. It is, afterall, 20 years after OT Features came into existence.

While the last one is a particular pet peeve of mine, the rest of the points above are part of every "professional" application. For Xara to call say XDP a professional application and not even have rudimentary color management in the year 2015 and charge what they do is wrong.

Gosh, it can sound like I hate XDP. I don't. I love using it. Remember what I wrote about XDP being a closed-loop? It's not entirely accurate but it is more true than not. I know you didn't actually ask about the above. But you are going to face some or all of these (and other issues) in you professional life--depending on what part of the for-print spectrum you end up working at.

The questions you asked.

#1 I touched on the reg marks above. As part of the PDF process, the automatic marks work for the majority of print work.

But you also asked about printing to PostScript. As I mentioned in my first response, this is not something done typically today. It is still done in particular circumstances, and sounds like for your class. Outside the classroom, it is not something that would typically be part of work. However, when I have had the need, it takes installing a PS print driver (not a color PS driver), and one intended for Linotronic equipment is what I have used in the past. I've attached a .prn file and the resulting PDF so you can see the output.

#2 Color libraries. XDP includes the same dated Pantone libraries that Adobe does with its Creative Cloud applications (including the current installs). At least I think so. I've updated my Pantone libraries in the past and don't think the latest XDP installs the version 2 Pantone libraries. Maybe it does. The ones showing in my application are the ones I created.

Same goes for say RAL or Toyo (etc.) inks. One would need to create their own palettes as XDP only ships with the Pantone spot colors. In all my years, I have used RAL for one job and never have used Toyo. Because I needed RAL, I took the time to create a spot color RAL palette. The main inks Xara ought to consider including if they have a customer base outside of Northern Europe and the USA. Point is, if you need other palettes in your professional usage of XDP, you'll need to create them.

#3 I alread mentioned about trapping. It's just not needed in typical print work. Now, for certain parts of screen printing I create a manual trap for the base color, but it is a "crude" outline trap that simply does the job and is how it's been done for a bazillion years in screen printing. (But this does remind me of one more thing about XDP I would want added to future versions...)

As regards overprinting, XDP has object-level overprinting. What it does not have is color swatch level over-printing. It needs it...again because it is called a professional application...

I suspected most of your answer before you answered, but it's nice to know the details. I agree with most of what you've said. Interestingly, though, tonight I had sort of an opposite issue, though I'll admit a lot of it is due to lack of experience with this side of graphics to begin with.

Same class is involved. I needed to create several 3 spot color images and print out seperations, etc. My particular image was, admittedly, maybe challenging due to the nature of it, but ultimately, it was a raster image, which would have been destroyed (lots of very small, perfect corners that vector tracers, especially adobe's(!), just fail to trace correctly and if any of those edges are lost, it ruins the effect of the image. So I was stuck in Photoshop, which wouldn't handle the printing options required for class, which were in illustrator, Photoshop refused to save my file with the correct colors seps on the channels layer, and then illustrator was refusing to allow me to properly import and recolor my image to match the swatches built in (and also ruined the edges from zooming...there seemed to be no option to enlarge the picture and do a 'nearest neighbor' scaling...so even if it worked out on the technical side, the actual image would've been boogered up)...

At any rate, I spent about 4 hours fighting with Adobe's CC to figure out how to get this project handed in exactly as spec. Then, with no progress, I had to leave to catch the train but the entire time I was like..."I can do all of this in Xara, then export to AI...and probably in 1/10 the time. So...if you ask me, I think if there's some kind of print plugin that's compatible with xara to just be able to do those registration marks that illustrator does and of course those other color/printing management/options you mentioned.

I also hate talking about Photoshop with anyone...not only do they have, effectively, a 'professional industry monopoly', but it's so much so that even talking bad about Photoshop or Illustrator, even passively, is some sort of blasphemy to the dogmatic worship of the holy one, the PS icon. I know I tend to use 'odd programs' most people have never even heard of because I'm a computer dork and I like trying new things, but sometimes it almost feels as if there should be some kind of lawsuit to break the Adobe monopoly on image editing software. It's to the point now where Photoshopping is a 'thing'. It's like how Kleenex is now the new word for tissue. Which obviously means it's probably going nowhere, but it's striking how little people give care to such narrowmindedness. Because something works for them means there's somehow no other better way that could possibly ever invented, much less exists. People cannot believe it when I tell them that one select tool in 'the program I use' (I never mention the name because people haven't heard of it anyway..."Xara? Never heard of it." So I just say 'the program I use' and leave it at that. :( )replaces ALL select tools in Illustrator. It's like I'm talking about some kind of faery witchcraft of something.

I dunno. It's funny because I feel less like Xara is limiting me as much as Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign are. Like, I have to bend MYSELF to fit that paradigm...quite unfair. I don't hold Adobe's CEO hostage because he doesn't approve actual objective substantial improvments to their software. :(

EDIT: Oh, and a different instructor in a class today told us, "If you're in any interview for any graphical design job, web, game, print or otherwise, doesn't matter, if you say you don't like Photoshop, you're not getting that job, period."

Again, that sounds suspiciously like a monopoly of some kind, even if only inferred, that's...idk, that makes me sad.

Suck it up and get a job. I like using Illustrator just as much as I like Xara mind you I have used Xara for more years so I feel more comfortable with Xara. I also enjoy using most of Page Plus and like using InDesign for larger work. If you work in a design office you got to have the skill set to be able to work in that office so don't close your mind to any software. I have spent my day time work using Illustrator and at night using Xara, Think about what you might be able to do with your work flow if you can handle both.

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Originally Posted by Albacore

Suck it up and get a job. I like using Illustrator just as much as I like Xara mind you I have used Xara for more years so I feel more comfortable with Xara. I also enjoy using most of Page Plus and like using InDesign for larger work. If you work in a design office you got to have the skill set to be able to work in that office so don't close your mind to any software. I have spent my day time work using Illustrator and at night using Xara, Think about what you might be able to do with your work flow if you can handle both.

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I can use both just fine. However, the lockdown on format (especially proprietary) is troubling.

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