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Is this a swastika-style logo?
There is a bit of a to-do on Twitter over the publication of a logo under the heading "New Order" on the cover of a Manchester United email sent to club supporters.
I attach a rough approximation of the logo here. The folks at Manchester United have issued an "unreserved apology" for reasons, that are, as far as I am concerned, mystifying.
It is said that this is a "Nazi-style" logo and I was wondering if the good people at TG agree that this is offensive, or is it drawing attention to a non-existent problem?
The logo represents the initials MUFC - Manchester United Football Club and that seems to be all there is to it. I don't see anything sinister about the design, but passions are running high in football circles.
I would be keen to know how people here feel about this, and if any logo designers feel that they ought to be second guessing potential "offensive" designs that they may be innocently creating that are going to result in prosecution for committing a perceived hate crime. The newspaper article is here.
Bob.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Everyone will see different things, when interpretations is needed.
But, even after reading what you say, I still don't see a 'swastika' resemblance?
Maybe, that's just me.
Mind you, I'm only looking at the logo, and not the article and the heading 'New Order' etc...
Which is where, if you start putting things together, then maybe it starts to become offensive.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
It's not a Swastica, but it has all the hallmarks of one.
The colours are red and black.
Angular design, straight edges arranged in directions reminiscent of a Swastica.
In many ways, whether or not it's a close resemblance to a Nazi emblem isn't the actual issue.
The real issue is whether people look at it and make that association, intended or not.
If I was on the far right (I'm not) and wanted a proxy Swastica that wasn't the real deal but would work for those 'in the know', then it might fit the bill nicely.
I think it's a poor logo for a modern club where inclusiveness and family values should be promoted, not something that could be used as a banner for thugs.
Apologies if I sat on the fence about this one..
[I haven't read the article]
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Yeah the isolated logo is not as bad but the image in the article does look like some kind of nazi poster at a glance and you could be pretty much guaranteed that fans of opposing teams would go to town on it, so definitely not good for man u supporters.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Right, now I've read the article and the combination of the images used with this Logo, plus the headline 'New Order' really make it totally inappropriate.
If you substituted the logo for a Nazi one, the pictures and headline would fit in with Nazi propoganda from WWII. The only thing you'd need to do is change the football shirts and substitute one of the images..
It's outrageous and I completely understand the furore.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
I have not read the article and do not make the connection. To me it does not resemble a swastika. Someone is always going to find fault with anything, seems to me if someone posted an image of a bunch of kids having a weenie roast someone somewhere would take offense.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
It is impossible to say whether or not if I had seen just the logo by itself I would associate it with the nazi swastika but combined with the colours, the positioning of the elements etc it is certainly similar. But if you take it with the image and as Paul points out the wording then the connection is there 100%, I do not want to go into politics but such images are regularly used on the continent by far right groups.
From a design point of view I also agree that it is a badly designed logo, especially if you bear in mind the global fans of the club. Any company which wishes to trade internationally has to look very closely into product names, logos etc. to make sure that there is no alternative meaning.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Because the swastika is rightly outlawed in europe a lot of the far right groups use stylised versions such as the far right russian parties which used the attached symbol, though the mufc one is not as blatant it shows how it can be disguised, and that to me makes the symbol used in the emails even more disturbing.
Attachment 99227
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Bob - As Paul notes, it has the same qualities as a swastika and probably intentionally.
Sketch - This takes the swastika one step further, if such a thing is possible.
Of course the swastika was used by the Native Americans, usually reversed, and has been used well before Hitler adopted it as the logo for the Nazi party. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
The logo is repellent for what it stood (stands) for, but as far as logos go, it is one of the most recognizable logos in the history of logos. It is simple, powerful and spare.
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I'm looking at the logo and the flyer as a whole and there is no doubt in my mind that as a whole the connection is there 100% I can't see how it could have been done accidentally. Even here half a world away school children are taught the history of WWI and WWII. It is a basic part of the history curriculum that all schools in Canada must teach, and I think that it's quite possibly the same in the US. There is no way the designer(s) can plead ignorance.
If the logo was presented to me on it's own I can't say for sure if the swastika connection would have stood out right away but like others have said here it's a bad design, and the colours don't help.
To answer the question about designing logos and being wary of potential offensive designs, I always try to keep things like that in mind. Here in BC we are a melting pot of many different cultures. So there is always an element of making sure a design could not be potentially offensive. For example when discussing a new logo for an art supply/framing store one design idea of a face with paint smears was discarded because of a possible First Nations connection with the painted face.
Perhaps just for an exercise and something lighter would anyone like to participate in a thread to create a good logo for this team?
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Frances, I don't think Man Utd are lacking in design talent, or the money to pay for it. There will have been some straight talking within the club after this incident.
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I don't the team needs a logo designer. The team needs a little sensitivity training.
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I'm thinking that it could be just for fun.
I found a full image of the newsletter cover that would give us the photo of the players and the club's proper logo and newsletter heading. If there is interest I'll dissect the image, remove the offensive stuff, and start a challenge thread.
If the interest isn't there that's OK :)
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Geez. And their constant use of the term "Reds" for players is also reminiscent of cold war struggle between the West and the Russians. And...and...
I think "sensitivity" is a PC sickness. Unless someone points out that this was intentional homage to Nazism, and I doubt that will happen, I could care less. Looking at the logo all I could do is to look how the logo "flowed" to connect the words to the thing. It sucks as a logo. And the colors? Well, that are their colors aren't they?
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Unless someone points out that this was intentional homage to Nazism,...
How could it not have been intentional? I don't know what the School Curriculum is like in the States, or elsewhere around the world but here in Canada the history of WW2 is a basic part of history lessons. I don't see how anyone could design that cover with that logo and the words New Order and claim they did not know.
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We were taught the same facts in the US, of course. I don't know about Canada, but in the US there is a principle where people are presumed innocent, not quilty.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Nobody's on trial.
I'm disappointed that you and others don't see the problem. Fortunately a lot of other people including Man U management, do.
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Don't be disappointed, Paul. "Man U management" are doing a CYA move. That's all.
Really, for something a bit more complete, the newsletter/email's title would be New World Order. The phrase, NWO, was used long before Hitler in his second book. And used by US Presidents and other world leaders before and since Hitler. Where's the outcry for their usage?
I have seen "square" logos comprised of four letters (or less) at opposing angles. So it must be, for those offended, the combinations of (1) logo color (2) logo shape and, (3) the title.
I'm disappointed that you and others see a problem. There, we're even.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Neuordnung - "New Order" - was a specific Nazi thing Mike, different from New World Order though the two are often conflated nowadays
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism)
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
FWIW, I think the juxtaposition of the symbol with the words "New Order" is disturbing, the symbol by itself isn't as it is too removed from the swastika. The "fire wheel" symbol is ubiquitous throughout the East and should be rescued from the disgusting connotations due to Nazi ideology, but it's still too soon.
I didn't realise it was used in the Americas too Gary, that is interesting.
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Well, I hate to be pedantic, Hitler's actual usage was more often European New Order and was first used in his 1941 speech. Further, he identified the West (and Russia perhaps) as being of the New World Order and his European New Order as its opposition.
So, which usage of the words New and Order was the Man U usage--which was their source? Impossible to tell from the news reports I looked at. It is obvious which "quote" the two words (that appear in both phrases) are being attributed to by those who are offended.
My only point is without those in the know admitting they were borrowing from Hitler, that a logo borrowed from the 3rd Reich was drawn, who really knows? Why attribute "evil" to those who drew it and used the phrase? At least before knowing the facts.
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Oh I don't think they're evil, they think they're being clever and probably ironic, as were the post-punk band New Order who, before the death of the lead singer, were called Joy Division, another Nazi phrase. They were from Manchester and not Nazis, I suppose the producers of this logo and headline were referencing that.
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Now, if only we were all academics, rather than people who just picked up on the symbolism in a modern context, rather than an etymological analysis.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
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Originally Posted by
zaphodeist
Oh I don't think they're evil, they think they're being clever and probably ironic, as were the post-punk band New Order who, before the death of the lead singer, were called Joy Division, another Nazi phrase. They were from Manchester and not Nazis, I suppose the producers of this logo and headline were referencing that.
Really? Ya think that Warsaw/Joy Division/New Order's reason for using the term Joy Division was to identify with German prison camp brothels? Interestingly (maybe not) I had a Warsaw album. Never did pick up anything from them later on.
Oh, I cannot find anything regarding their use of "Joy Division" nor "New Order" anywhere on the web that caused controversy or was thus attributed to such a use.
I must lead a really sheltered life. I must try to go out in the real world more often.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
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Originally Posted by
pauland
Now, if only we were all academics, rather than people who just picked up on the symbolism in a modern context, rather than an etymological analysis.
Look, it isn't me (incorrectly) attributing historical usage of specific terms/symbols to ascribe ill usage of said terms/symbols to another person/company/football club. It is all rather silly. But if it floats your boat to be so sensitive, go for it.
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Mike, we've had years of violent football hooligans that used ruin British football, often aligned to the right and for the most part we're rid of them. Nobody wants a return to the bad old days and that publication was far too reminiscent of that ideology.
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There was some controversy, mostly from those who found "Sex Pistols" & "Buzzcocks" offensive, but most people realised that being a punk band - originally - they were out to shock. They weren't advocating Nazism. I don't think "Joy Division" can be attributed to any other source, nor New Order though. Naive irony, we've all suffered from it at that age ... I still do at times :D
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@Pauland: Correct, and given more recent incidents - Suarez, Terry for instance - and the efforts of Kick It Out to make sure football doesn't return to those days, that logo/headline was irresponsible at the very least imho
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When I create maps I often get very artistic in design, but the most important thing about a map is the perception of the person looking at it, and if the understand the meaning of what they see. A designer's goal should be the intended perception of the viewer. I don't just create cool graphics for the sake of the design, I always think first how the design will be perceived by others. Either the logo designer intended for it's Nazi-esque look, or is completely blind regarding how others will perceive their art - a complete blunder. I doubt the latter.
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We were taught the same facts in the US, of course. I don't know about Canada, but in the US there is a principle where people are presumed innocent, not quilty.
;))
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Hah. I should never type using my phone! Or I should get newt glasses so I can sea spelink and gramatikal errrors.
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The colours used are the away strip colours than Man U uses so no I wouldn't take it to be a swastika. That's just me!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-24691368 As suspected, "New Order" was a reference to the band that in conjunction with the graphic was disturbing. "The creative is completely inappropriate; we apologise unreservedly and are taking appropriate internal action."
@Bob: I agree btw that things like this often display over-sensitivity, but the context in this case [football and its past in some areas] should have been taken into account imho. If they had used the logo without "New Order" there would not have been a problem.
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I agree that the logo without "New Order" wouldn't have been an issue. It was putting the two together that caused the problem. I think as well the timing of it probably added to it. We are nearing the end of October, and I don't know the customs elsewhere but here the Poppy campaigns will be starting up and here at least Remembrance Day is beginning to come to our thoughts. In the US I believe it's called Veteran's Day, I'm not sure what the day is called in the UK or anywhere else but I'm pretty sure that Nov.11 is set aside for some sort of remembrance.
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November 10th is Remembrance Sunday here Frances or commonly known as poppy day by some younger people. Yes you are right that the timing is a tad unfortunate.
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The eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month is Remebrance Day.
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Originally Posted by
skech
November 10th is Remembrance Sunday here Frances or commonly known as poppy day by some younger people. Yes you are right that the timing is a tad unfortunate.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Not only the native indians, also in India it was/is used, not strange when you know that Hitler associated himself and his idea's with aryans, a race living in that area. So it is a general symbol. The nazi symbol is actually a swastika in a white circle on a red field.
And the colors red and black where more associated with the anarchists movement in those dark days.
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
@Grace: - Remembrance Day, here at any rate, takes place on the second Sunday of November or the Sunday nearest the 11th November. This year it falls on the 10th
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When I was a boy in San Francisco in the 1950s, I noticed a weathered metal swastika high up on the side of a brick chimney... on a large home in Presidio Heights. What! Had it been the German Embassy before WWII? But no ... my Mom told me that it was a very old good-luck symbol ... WAY before Hitler ... like, Rudyard Kipling had used it as a personal sort-of-logo, and printed it at the start of his books.
Anyway, the Nazis sure put this design out of circulation. Closest alternative... maybe that Isle of Man three-legged symbol?
As for Manchester United... why is this an issue? Just change it. Any good graphic designer can give you five different takes on a logo ... so just pick one that doesn't get people jumping up and down. Not hard!
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Re: Is this a swastika-style logo?
Because it's not the logo that's the problem really, it's "New Order" ;)