Easy, delete the HTMLfilter.dll and remove the web related buttons from the tool bars. Job done ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mwenz
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Easy, delete the HTMLfilter.dll and remove the web related buttons from the tool bars. Job done ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mwenz
split from here:
http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...867#post412867
Thanks Steve, could you leave a forwarding link in the eraser thread for mwenz to follow?
already done :)
I'm pretty dumb at times, but I can find the original thread. I haven't devolved into utter stupidity yet. Though some may argue that point.
Mike
Gosh man, just trying to be helpful. Don't be so hard on yourself :)
Every time this is suggested, I wonder what would be gained by do this. There would still be the same amount of developer time to spend on the products, some of which would be spent on splitting the drawing functions from the web functions (and on-going testing for each release).
What do you think could be gained by removing the web functionality? Is the problem that you perceive that you're buying functionality you have no intention of using or that you feel that the web functionality is getting in your way? Perhaps what you really want is they option to pick a configuration that move all the web functionality off the primary UI objects and deeper in to menus (and maybe restores some of the older key shortcuts).
I think a few of us want to use Design Pro just for drawing and this programme to be developed to this end. We may have Web Designer on our hard disc or other HTML or CSS editors for the job if required. I am not asked very often nowadays to design a purely static site most require some sort of inter action between the site and the reader with the reader given the statisfaction of making an input. To get back to the point of the thread and with the experience of many years of using this software I have found if I don't link any filters to Live Effects or limit them to very few because I don't use them working with bitmaps happens faster. When you don't use the HTML filter at all it was suggested to me by a moderator/developer that I should then remove the filter. I didn't by the way but the market now is littered with both online and programme based WYSISWYG design based web tools and surely it is Xara's role to listen to the requests from its users.
With the reourses of what Adobe have and the market research that they do, with the intro of the beta version of Muse and programmes like Corel, Serif's PagePlus, do you not think that keeping the products separate would benifit the company in general. I am no expert when it comes to how difficult it would be to test each product but to my mind if you start with an nearly error free product and intoduce 2 improvements to that product you only have to test against those 2 and not how it relates to a different programme.
I think the "few" users that want a pure drawing program are a small (but very vocal) minority. The majority of users probably don't even visit TG and hence don't post their requests. That's not to say that Xara doesn't listen to them, just they should realize that there is a much larger userbase which does use the web features (possibly to the exclusion of the drawing features).
My impression of Muse in it's current state is that it offers an easy way to create a web site, but when you want to add graphics they have to pre-made in an external editor (which I'm sure Adobe would prefer was Photoshop). Web Designer in comparison allows many more options for inclusion of graphics (be they bitmap or vector) and far richer manipulation of these resources once they are installed. DP of course allows even richer manipulation than this.
I don't think that it would be better for Xara to split the drawing functionality from the web functionality. Currently all the products come from the same source code, with feature turned on and off. This allows bug fixes and new features to automatically shared by all products. Since changes are being made in the common source code we have to carefully test every product.
Splitting the drawing features into a separate program does not magically produce more available developer time to write new drawing features and could actually decrease the amount of time that could be spent on drawing features.
Though I didn't really start this thread, here goes.
Luke, send all your customer base of XDP an email asking which direction they would like XDP to go. That's the only informal means of knowing. while still being an informal means of inquiry, it would give Xara a better idea of what the silent majority feels.
In the end, it comes down to perception of the user-base. In reality, from the vector side of things there is not much movement in features or capabilities. Certainly not in comparison to web stuff.
I do know the user-base of web authoring software is larger than those seeking vector stuff. Then again, Xara doesn't seem to desire to target that market specifically. Would an enhanced XDP without web abilities do better in direct and vocal marketing against Adobe's or Corel's vector apps? I have no idea. Historically, the answer is no, not really. That may come down to focused, targeted marketing. Then again, there is no need for such a marketing campaign if the vector capabilities are not brought up to speed in order to better compete.
Don't get me wrong. I like XDP. My only "frustration," if you will, is in a few current niggles regarding CMYK issues and a few capabilities (such as updated import/export filters, etc.) as regards my personal work. But XDP could be a better, fuller vector application and could compete better against the likes of Illy and CD if time were devoted to it.
Just my ignorant, single-person perspective.
Take care, Mike
Luke, I really understand what you say about developer time and efficiency of sharing fixes and new features. Sadly, although I doubt that you intended it that way, as I read your response I got the feeling that XDP is being positioned as a useful web authoring app that has some excellent graphics tools rather than as an excellent graphics app that has some useful web authoring tools. Those of us who don't use the web tools can tend to feel left out, especially if Xara has been our go-to, right hand, best friend graphics app for years.
I don't use the web features because I'm only responsible for two sites. The main one is now a couple of hundred pages (and growing). For a number of reasons in addition to its size, there's no possibility that I could maintain that site in XDP. All the graphics work, including photo manipulation, is done in XDP. I wouldn't have it any other way. :)
When it comes to "enhancements" in XDP, it can be hard not to ascribe those that get in the way to the perceived focus on web authoring. For example, favoring page level over layer level in the P&L Gallery. (Bless you for giving us the ability to turn off the page thumbails!) And the multi-layer clipboard that arrived in v5. (Bless Bill for giving us a way to turn that off.)
OTOH, when we do get new vector capabilities (such as Magic Snap, which is great, and the new Paste capabilities, which don't look exciting but can be very useful), they look like small potatoes beside the web focus. And they're not promoted as "vector" or "drawing" enhancements. On your website, they're promoted as "Design and Useability Enhancements".
BTW, Mike, sending the customer base an email still won't provide a full picture of who's using Xara and the direction they want it to take. Only a fraction of the users will respond, and they may not accurately represent the whole.
Allison
I'm in the same boat as Allison. I use XDP for illustration and desktop publishing. I haven't touched the web design features at all, mainly because when I do web design, I get down into the guts of the thing, and design from the ground up with Notepad++ (I'm fairly OCC about the neatness of my HTML and CSS code), and use Paint Shop Pro to create any bitmap images that will be used.
The innovations for drawing and illustration that have been introduced in XX4, XX5, and XDP6 are amazing. I personally would like to see the product continue to develop along those lines.
-- Ben
[But apparently not OCD enough about checking my spelling.] :)
-- Ben
My frustration with the Web features is they have been responsible for multiple changes to how tools function. Instead of a double click toggling the sizing and rotation handles it now switches tools, very frustrating when you have to reselect the tool you want and then slowly click to get the handles you want. There are many other changes to features solely to support the web features, too numerous to list here.
The changes to keyboard shortcuts does not bother me as I gave up on using them when the spacebar toggle was changed many versions ago.
If there were at least some vector improvements or new vector tools it would not seem that vector users were being ignored and appearantly wanted to remain silent and go away.
I was initially very annoyed at the changing of the default function of the spacebar. At the time, I was using the Selection and Shape tools almost exclusively, so switching between the two was very convenient. However, in time I trained myself to use the Fkeys to get to the tools I wanted, and now it's second nature. So much so that I have at times found myself hitting F2 in Paint Shop Pro or Visio to try and get to the Selection tool.
-- Ben
The space bar toggle is too useful to give up. That shortcut key is one of the first things I change in a new install. I've always used the Fkeys to access tools. It's second nature.
OTW, I agree with Bill that various changes made in tool behavior have not improved my workflow. Rather, they're speed bumps I have to work around. The doubleclick change is one of them.
Would not these UI changes have happened anyway? Even without web stuff? I mean, is the web stuff entirely responsible for the UI changes made since v3. Can we really ask for new features to a drawing application and then complain about the changes the features might bring along with them?
I have little way to know whether any given modification was made to support the web functions over the drawing functions. As I said, it can be hard not to think so at times when a change adversely affects your workflow. AIR, the spacebar change was not web-related. Rather, it was an attempt to look more like the big boys at the expense of an elegant and innovative feature.
Some of the UI changes would have occurred without the web features. The Dark UI for example would have been implemented without web features simply because younger users think it is "New" and "Improved".
Keyboard shortcut changes began long before web features, as I alluded to in my previous post.
However there are changes made to support the web features because they are required for those features to exist. This is where I would like the splitting of the two concepts. Don't force me to change my drawing workflow developed over 10+ years just to give someone web features.
I have no delusion that splitting web and vector drawing will have any advantages for one or the other. It would create more work for the developers and less time to work on either product.
I'm an older user and think it's a great improvement ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Soquili
Consider yourself lucky to have better eyesight than some of us older folk. ;)
Or a better monitor calibration :p
;)) wish I could calibrate my eyes. Monitors are easy. >:)
I actually like that double clicking changes to the appropriate tool, text, quickshape, etc. A time saver for my workflow, which is not web creation (in the Xara sense). And the fact that you can hover over the area between the handles and object for rotation makes this a non-issue for me personally...Quote:
Originally Posted by Soquili
this is thread about web stuff removal - not UI changes, and especially not monitor callibration.... if this goes on I shall need to split it again :D
Some say the Web integration is responsible for some UI changes, I think that's where the connection is.
Steven in my opinion the new feature should not have replaced the existing feature but should have required the second click to activate.Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenWWinters
Adding new features should be as transparent to existing users as possible. Modifying an existing feature simply to add a new feature causes unnecessary frustration.
Customer loyalty is a two way street. Loyalty to customers is required in order to receive loyalty from customers.
Suggestion: If you don't like the web features, DON'T USE THEM.
I have been working with Xara since 1996 and I cannot remember even one time when Xara forced me to use a tool or feature against my will.
Gary is right in my opinion - it is the same with any other aspect of the program eg: live effects
which as we both know is rhubarb...Quote:
Originally Posted by ShapeShifter
everyone please stay on topic; thanks
Gary,
Of course this thread was a split from another thread where I made a slightly off-hand comment in amongst other comments. these comments have validity, just as other comments in favor of additions in Dear Xara are. Perhaps that would have been a better forum to split the thread to.
I think this whole concept of splitting the program web features from XDP would not garner much notice *if* the design-side (features directly related to graphic design) of XDP kept pace with the additions and enhancements of web stuff.
So if you would be so kind to tell me this. Are you satisfied with the pace of stuff added, fixed or enhanced related directly to print design?
Of course no one needs to use the web stuff. I think that if for no other reason it is requested to split the applications could be more chalked up to frustration of the seemingly slow pace of devotion to print design enhancements, fixes or new features. Maybe it's just last gasp plea for development focus.
I would be willing to bet if print design features kept pace with web development stuff, this wouldn't be such a recurring theme.
Take care, Mike
My very humble two cents. For almost thirty years I have been a big advocate of keeping all programs separate: my bitmaps or vectors in this, my publishing in that, my web design in the other. I have avoided programs where all this was integrated. Or avoided features as they were introduced. Then came Xara Designer Pro 7. Good grief. I think it is an amazing program. I have completely changed my point of view, and, like most geeks, I hardly ever do that! This program has wrested me from my beloved Photoimpact (another gem, now dated, and cruelly left to rot at Corel). It's wrested me from Fireworks, which I have used professionally for many years. And it's even taken me from Netobjects Fusion, which I have used and loved forever. After about two days of using Xara, I simply found I wasn't going to my other programs: no point. Whatever Xara Designer Pro can't do yet, I just work around. It's worth it.
All of the programs I used in the past did other things too. But I never used the graphics capability of Netobjects Fusion. I never used the web design capability of Photoimpact or Fireworks. They felt cobbled on, and I felt gave lacklustre results sometimes. I always felt the secondary part of these programs was bolted on as an afterthought. But all of Xara's tools seem made for their primary purpose, even though, obviously, they must have been bolted on. I bought Web Designer Premium 7, but don't use it now because I find I prefer the tools in Designer Pro 7. It seems to make the whole thing work, easily and very elegantly. I love it.
So I beg: please don't petition to get everything separated out. I think it would dilute Xara's programming efforts too much. And it would remove some of the extraordinary functionality that I currently enjoy. Having read this month's rave reviews of the product in PC Pro, and Computer Shopper, both in the UK, the critics share my delight at this feature-packed product. It is not often that a program is so well thought-out that it completely trounces Adobe's Creative Suite, which is what just happened in our press. I think Xara is very modest not to have that writ in 200 px type on their home page. Animated.
In addition, some of Xara's web design tools are the only new thing I have seen on the web in years. I think Xara has set the innovation bar very high, and almost every other competitor will be in awe for some time to come.
I do agree with Gary. In the same way that when people complain about a TV program they don't like, I say "change channels". I say about this, if you don't want to use a part of the Xara program, then just don't click there. I do understand how you feel, I promise, but I think what is happening at the moment in Xara's design is the best of all worlds. Lucky us.
Peace to all.
Ali
Programs change, and for this loyal customer since CorelXara days, the changes worked for the better. Different folks / different strokes I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soquili
In any event, as pointed out these particular changes were unrelated to the the topic at hand, which is "remove web stuff"...
Good post, Ali. Agree with your points.
For my money, removing the Web Features would be a backwards step and would certainly mess with my workflow.
Besides, as I see it we already have one application which focuses on the web side, Web Designer, and one which focuses on the graphics side Photo & Graphic Designer. People can make their choice easily. Designer Pro 7 simply has everything for those who want Xara with the lot ;)
Solution: Add Pro Vector Import and Export along with Pantone Color support to P&GD. ;)
Honestly though, I concede the futility of my wish for a purely vector version from Xara. Even with the changes to how things work and frustation of having to change my workflow, Xara Designer Pro is the best application available.
yes that's fair, with the caveat that pro does have some graphic features, eg to do with print and import/export file type filter enhancements, that P&GD does not have..Quote:
Originally Posted by ShapeShifter
EDIT - oh and 'essentials' for the serious such as user defined keyboard shortcuts...
I must admit to agreeing wholeheartedly with what Mike stated in thread #30. Would not see myself having to consider if was or not worth the bother of upgrading I would just buy the product if the design & print tools kept abreast with the web development.
too late I realise that some will take 'rubbarb' as meaning 'rubbish', when what I meant was 'beside the point' - the joy of slang :DQuote:
Originally Posted by handrawn
when I split this thread I envisioned it as a discussion of how to remove webstuff from the program now, as in SS's suggestion to remove the .dll - not changes to the UI and the reasons why members might want to have webstuff removed in the future
still it has developed along those lines and within reason that is fair enough.... :)
Ditto that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mwenz
me too