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The controversial eraser tool
It's been mentioned umpteen times on TG - people wanting an eraser tool for Xara. It's usually followed by an "explanation" of why Xara doesn't have it - usually a mixture of "erasers are for bitmaps", "this is the way we do it with Xara/vectors" and "vector software can't do this", "don't expect xara software to work like other software, work with the flow" or variations thereof.
I've never really seen the big deal about an eraser tool - after all we can juggle points around and get the same effect - right?
It's also tempting and convenient to consider that vector software can't do erasers. Well vector software is generating bitmaps for display continually from vector information and it's a fallacy and disservice to suggest that it's beyond vector tool developers to build an eraser that works with vectors.
But we don't really need new drawing tools, right? And neither would an eraser tool improve the productivity when drawing - it's only for sloppy people who are used to bitmap software - we all know that.
Today I saw a video of a guy using non-Xara software. I don't care if it's bitmap based or vector based, but the workflow blew me away - I have never seen anyone work in this manner before.
At first, I thought "Wow - this guy is working fast!", then I considered, yep he's a talented artist, then he started colouring in his B&W line artwork and man he was fast and the inking speed is spectacular.
Watching him working, he splashes on colour with complete abandon; color goes over lines, it's really fast and a bit messy. Then he switches to the eraser tool and just swipes back over the excess colour removing it wherever it's gone further than intended.
This is a stunningly fast, organic workflow and it's only possible with the use of an eraser tool (combined with layers).
I'm not a real artist in any shape or form, but for me this video shows why an eraser tool should be in Xara and why layers are important (so the eraser only wipes what you want it to wipe). The drawing tablet is pretty cool too..
I'm afraid the video blew me away and Xara, you should take notice.
Paul
Oh, you might want to look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJk0S...ature=youtu.be ;-)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Paul,
Thanks for sharing.
Convinced!
Keep knocking, maybe the door opens...
Re: "...and Xara, you should take notice."
Indeed.
Peace
James
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
pauland
This is a stunningly fast, organic workflow
You know the answer already. But I will still say it. This is not Xara workflow. It's a pity that there's almost no videos of experienced users designing in Xara. But that doesn't mean that in the hands of a true artist Xara workflow would look less impressive. You must have seen this already for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE5hIGad_Os
Now, I do hear that you don't care vector or raster. But that's the point. Trucks and roadsters do behave differently despite the result is to move from point A to point B. Freehand drawing is not natural for vectors. As the freehand input produces completely irregular and chaotic result, basically it is best to be represented as a bitmap already on the input stage. For the vector approach, freehand input may only be logically represented as a line. Which is the way freehand input is implemented in most vector editors. However, the eraser tool operates with the area, not path. And interacting with other lines produced by freehand drawing, we have alterations to the shape rendered based on the line. So we do not edit lines no more. We have to convert lines to shapes (based on used width, profile, brush etc), then alter them and end up with lines not being lines anymore. Now this approach is in fact not quite vector. If you draw a line, you expect it to remain a line until you decide to explicitly convert it to shape.
Now, you've already said it, and you are right. What you want is to emulate the work of bitmap editor with the vector editor. This IS possible. But, what is the point? You can use the bitmap editor instead. After all you do not expect bitmap editors to emulate the workflow of the vector editors, do you? Surely you can move your stuff with a roadster or drive fast in a truck. But it will always be better to use them for the proper purpose.
Now, in conclusion. Obviously vector eraser is not a bad idea. But the example you provide and your arguments are mostly invalid.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: The controversial eraser tool
Rather than have this become a "Mexican Standoff", perhaps a little dialog might evoke a compromise in perspective...
Re: "Freehand drawing is not natural for vectors."
Drawing a freehand line (no matter what the profile/width) seems very possible in Xara, CURRENTLY. The math to make that line is already coded in the program. It certainly seems to me that to make that negative space instead is not so very different. If you have further light to shed on why it is FUNDAMENTALLY different, I would love to hear and consider it. ;)
If I make a large vector rectangle and then make a line, convert it to a shape, select both and subtract the line from the rectangle, it seems I have done EXACTLY what a vector eraser tool would be doing, except less hoops to jump through if it's made into it's own Tool...
Attachment 83359
It looks like all the main routines necessary for this are basically already there.
Peace
James
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
covoxer
You know the answer already. But I will still say it. This is not Xara workflow.
Web generation used to "not be Xara workflow", but somehow it's arrived.
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It's a pity that there's almost no videos of experienced users designing in Xara. But that doesn't mean that in the hands of a true artist Xara workflow would look less impressive. You must have seen this already for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE5hIGad_Os
I have seen the video and it is impressive. It doesn't invalidate the usefullness of an eraser.
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Now, I do hear that you don't care vector or raster. But that's the point. Trucks and roadsters do behave differently despite the result is to move from point A to point B. Freehand drawing is not natural for vectors. As the freehand input produces completely irregular and chaotic result, basically it is best to be represented as a bitmap already on the input stage. For the vector approach, freehand input may only be logically represented as a line. Which is the way freehand input is implemented in most vector editors. However, the eraser tool operates with the area, not path. And interacting with other lines produced by freehand drawing, we have alterations to the shape rendered based on the line. So we do not edit lines no more. We have to convert lines to shapes (based on used width, profile, brush etc), then alter them and end up with lines not being lines anymore. Now this approach is in fact not quite vector. If you draw a line, you expect it to remain a line until you decide to explicitly convert it to shape.
Now, you've already said it, and you are right. What you want is to emulate the work of bitmap editor with the vector editor.
I don't want to emulate the work of a bitmap editor, I'm just showing how powerful the eraser technique can be and suggesting that it's as applicable to vector shapes and lines as it is to bitmaps.
Yay, at last.
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But, what is the point? You can use the bitmap editor instead.
If people wanted to use a bitmap editor, they have plenty to choose from. I specifically mentioned the eraser tool workflow because if Xara just chooses to conveniently ignore drawing innovation people may do as you suggest - use a bitmap editor with a better workflow for their task.
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After all you do not expect bitmap editors to emulate the workflow of the vector editors, do you? Surely you can move your stuff with a roadster or drive fast in a truck. But it will always be better to use them for the proper purpose.
Now, in conclusion. Obviously vector eraser is not a bad idea.
It's not about emulating bitmap editors but improving Xara workflow. Since you concur that this is not a bad idea, I'm not sure what the point of the largely negative response is.
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But the example you provide and your arguments are mostly invalid.
We'll agree to differ. I hope some of the people involved artistically will provide their thoughts and not focus pointlessly on the Bitmap versus vector argument, but see it in terms of a tool to improve their workflow or not.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
illustrator, inkscape, serifdrawplus all vector editors, all have erasers, this must say something I think, and I've championed it in the past - it would speed up certain operations, no doubt
but that said, as an artist myself not a designer, for 'stunningly organic workflow' I would not use a vector program
back in the day screen rendering in photoshop and the like was abysmal at most zoom settings, but now with the advances in openGL and graphics cards, you can zoom out to at least 12% and your drawing still renders clear at every turn of the mouse wheel
so one of the main reasons for using vector for me is no longer relevant - I can draw large pixel size and see it clearly at reduced size view as I draw, in most serious bitmap drawing programs
screen rendering times are catching up too given the power of today's computers
I can draw freehand in, say SAI, and colour with it's air brush, a lot faster than I can in xara not withstanding xara's excellent vector tools
Where a vector tool really scores is if you need precision in the CAD/design sense - if you don't need that kind of precision, and you can freehand draw for real, a raster solution can be every bit as good if not better
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
ODdOnLifeItself
why it is FUNDAMENTALLY different, I would love to hear and consider it.
You've already heard it. If you can't understand what I have written, read again.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
pauland
Web generation used to "not be Xara workflow", but somehow it's arrived.
Actually perfect example this is. You know very well how much Xara's web design workflow differs from the more classic ones. ;)
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I have seen the video and it is impressive. It doesn't invalidate the usefullness of an eraser.
True. But it illustrates that Xara workflow may look pretty well too. Actually, any good drawing/painting program in hands of great artist would produce stunningly looking workflow. So, the point is that eraser tool is important to exactly reproduce the workflow from your video. But it is not necessary to have a great workflow in general.
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I don't want to emulate the work of a bitmap editor, I'm just showing how powerful the eraser technique can be and suggesting that it's as applicable to vector shapes and lines as it is to bitmaps.
It is not applicable to lines as I have previously explained. But that's not the point. As I say, sure, it is possible to emulate raster workflow with vector tools to some level. But this fact doesn't make it necessary. In other words, you first have to prove that this particular workflow is better than anything you can have in Xara even without an eraser tool. Only then you can use it as a valid argument to add this feature. Your video does not prove this.
Has anyone told you that this is impossible? :eek:
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If people wanted to use a bitmap editor, they have plenty to choose from. I specifically mentioned the eraser tool workflow because if Xara just chooses to conveniently ignore drawing innovation people may do as you suggest - use a bitmap editor with a better workflow for their task.
Again, I see no proof of this workflow being superior. It certainly is more convenient for people familiar and used to it, but there's no proof that it is any better than the vector ways.
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It's not about emulating bitmap editors but improving Xara workflow.
Well, I have explained why it doesn't match the vector approach. So it is an emulation of the typical raster tool. Automatic conversion of random lines to shapes is basically wrong since you are losing editability (you can't change the line width or profile after such edits). And this is the most important feature of the vector.
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Since you concur that this is not a bad idea, I'm not sure what the point of the largely negative response is.
This response is objective. It is generally a good thing to expand vector toolset. After all, if someone doesn't like eraser, he may simply not use it. But your post had some false assumptions and exaggerations greatly skewing the real value, usefulness and actual reasons to have this particular feature implemented. So I'm just making it clear.
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in terms of a tool to improve their workflow or not.
Well, your original post was not about improving a workflow (you'd have to talk about improving your workflow in this case I suppose). Instead you were suggesting that the provided example of the particular workflow is something that must be possible to have in Xara. But first of all, this particular artist will not use Xara. And you have not proved in any way that any Xara artists would improve their workflow learning from this particular example.
The problem is not in the vector eraser tool. It's in your reasoning of it's importance.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
handrawn
it would speed up certain operations, no doubt
Yes.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
John, I have put the case that the eraser tool could be a great thing in some circumstances. I don't have to prove that it's better, I just put that view forward.
Many people using Xara don't see the point of an eraser tool. The video shows the tool being used to good effect and while you may not see any value in what the video shows, others may find it enlightening.
I don't know why I find myself involved in a petty battle of word semantics about whether an eraser tool is trying to emulate some bitmap tool or workflow, when many competing vector toolsets incorporate it already - erasing vector based shapes without translation to bitmaps.
Xaras workflow for doing such operations as removing sections of vector shapes by point manipulation or shape subtraction works but is downright clumsy in an organic workflow as shown in the video.
To be honest John, I really don't care if you like the easer tool or not. What really matters is that people who are currently using xara for illustration and cartoons continue to find that xara is the best possible tool for them to do their work.
I would say that the video shows a phenomenally fast workflow that could be achievable within Xara using the eraser tool if it were present and speed their workflow. You clearly disagree.
Out of curiosity, I had a play at crudely repeating the workflow shown in the video using a pure vector editor - Flash. I can draw the lines and fill them using a brush tool. I can put them in layers and erase the vector shapes with an eraser tool and replicate the workflow of the video exactly without using any bitmap based tools at all. After I've erased a section of the vector shape I can play with the nodes and drag around points.
I really wish that rather than trying to kick a suggestion into submission (that's all this is - a suggestion), you let other people who use the product to do work similar to that shown, to decide whether that's a good way to work rather than try and push aside a perfectly good suggestion.
Xara may not wish to implement an eraser, but I'd rather people using Xara for the kind of illustration shown in the video, have a chance to air their views and support the idea (or not) rather than it just be buried and then those users eventually decide that there are better ways to do their work without Xara.
It's not about winning arguments with me John, it's about users having a voice about what suits (or does not suit) their workflow. I might be wrong, but at least I've tried to show a suggestion for progressing Xara as an organic drawing tool, rather than keep the Xara drawing workflow preserved in a museum.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
covoxer
Well, I have explained why it doesn't match the vector approach.
but it must do - illustrator has one - right ?
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
pauland
others may find it enlightening.
Yes, and that would make them confused. I'd like to avoid this confusion.
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many competing vector toolsets incorporate it already
But you have not used this argument, do you? Unlike most of your assumptions in OP, this one is actually true.
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erasing vector based shapes without translation to bitmaps.
Yes, but I was talking about conversion of lines to shapes.
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Xaras workflow for doing such operations as removing sections of vector shapes by point manipulation or shape subtraction works but is downright clumsy in an organic workflow as shown in the video.
Why do you think that in this particular example there is a need to remove sections of the shapes? Unlike in raster, you can place shapes on top of other shapes without removing anything. Similar drawing could be made without removing any parts of any vector shapes.
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To be honest John, I really don't care if you like the easer tool or not.
With this approach I'm sure you do not expect anyone to care about what you post here, right? Then why do you even post?
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What really matters is that people who are currently using xara for illustration and cartoons continue to find that xara is the best possible tool for them to do their work.
Are you trying to enlighten them?
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I would say that the video shows a phenomenally fast workflow that could be achievable within Xara using the eraser tool if it were present and speed their workflow. You clearly disagree.
Yes, I do disagree that this is the only possible fast workflow.
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I really wish that rather than trying to kick a suggestion into submission (that's all this is - a suggestion),
This is not a suggestion. Suggestions are already made in Dear Xara section. This here is some sort of agitation based on the false assumptions. Surely it may impress some not experienced users and confuse them about necessity of this feature. If you can't draw without eraser tool in Xara, adding it will not make you draw as effortlessly as on that video. So you make your point praising eraser tool, and I make mine.
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Xara may not wish to implement an eraser
Xara wish to implement eraser tool. It's on the wishlist.
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have a chance to air their views and support the idea
Already done in Dear Xara section.
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It's not about winning arguments with me John, it's about users having a voice
No it's about you trying to confuse people. Intentionally or not. Users do have a voice without this.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
handrawn
but it must do
No.
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illustrator has one - right ?
So?
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
sorry John, but if illustrator has an eraser then it has to fit the vector approach one way or another, almost by definition
still it's good to know it is on the wishlist, thanks
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
covoxer
it's about you trying to confuse people. Intentionally or not.
I really don't like that suggestion much.
I put up an interesting demonstration, invite comment and just get a kicking from a Xara employee/associate for my pains because he doesn't like a fairly innocuous suggestion about a useful tool that is everywhere else but in Xara software.
What you should be saying John, is something like this:
"That's an interesting video Paul. A number of people have already expressed interest in such a tool and it's on the Xara wishlist, so it may happen one day. It would be great to hear what others think.".
Instead we get a stupid petty argument with a developer berating a customer. Great PR for a thread that should have been a positive contribution.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
handrawn
it has to fit the vector approach one way or another
It's "another" in this case. ;)
Vector eraser IS a vector tool. But with some drawbacks.
Imagine you have drawn lots of quick strokes. They are all lines. Now you trim them a little bit with eraser. Let's say half of them were affected by eraser. They were converted to shapes. But the rest are still lines. You can still change line width, pattern, profile, even apply brush to them. But not to those that were affected by the eraser. Surely, they are all vector, but the result is not quite consistent or predictable.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
pauland
What you should be saying John, is something like this:
You want me to lie? No way. :)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
ok - is there not a way to trim vector lines with an eraser without converting to shape?
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
covoxer
It's "another" in this case. ;)
Vector eraser IS a vector tool. But with some drawbacks.
Imagine you have drawn lots of quick strokes. They are all lines. Now you trim them a little bit with eraser. Let's say half of them were affected by eraser. They were converted to shapes. But the rest are still lines. You can still change line width, pattern, profile, even apply brush to them. But not to those that were affected by the eraser. Surely, they are all vector, but the result is not quite consistent or predictable.
A line cut by the eraser becomes two lines. Shape cut by the eraser becomes two shapes. A long line erased at the end becomes a shorter line. It's entirely predictable.
Doesn't really matter if you cut a shape or a line.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
handrawn
ok - is there not a way to trim vector lines with an eraser without converting to shape?
Of course there is. It's not a barrier for other developers.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
covoxer
You want me to lie? No way. :)
I was just hoping for behaving reasonably, actually.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
well I thought so Paul, but I am trying to get head around John's argument by asking him for clarification [edit: reply to post 20]
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
handrawn
ok - is there not a way to trim vector lines with an eraser without converting to shape?
But then you wouldn't get that workflow. You see, all the freehand strokes are lines. And they all have some width. If we just trim the path, the end of the line will not match the actual erased area.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
right
so what you are saying is that the line would need to be converted to shape in order for there to be nodes to define the outline that was left after erase?
yes I can see that John, if you are erasing a line's width and not just it's length
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
handrawn
so what you are saying is that the line would need to be converted to shape in order for there to be nodes to define the outline that was left after erase?
Yes, exactly. This is not a huge problem, all objects still remain vector. So the tool is vector obviously. But we lose some of the vector advantages here.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
right
so what you are saying is that the line would need to be converted to shape in order for there to be nodes to define the outline that was left after erase?
yes I can see that John, if you are erasing a line's width and not just it's length
Really?
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Here's a question for someone who actually has the program in front of them at the moment (I do not, as I'm on my work PC): If you draw one or more lines, then draw a shape that partially overlaps, and subtract the shape from the lines, are the remaining portions of the lines automatically converted to shapes?
The way I would imagine an eraser tool working is in Xara would be to simplify/automate the following steps:
1. You have lines and/or shapes drawn on the page.
2. You draw a line or shape over them.
3. You subtract the top object from every object it overlaps.
-- Ben
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Hi Paul,
That /is/ a great video and we know that an eraser tool, in one form or another, would be a powerful tool that would give artists new creative possibilities.
@John: There are many different ways in which an eraser tool could be implemented that would be consistent with the program's hybrid bitmap/vector ethos. Not all of those solutions would require stroked lines to be converted permanently to shapes, leading to the problems that you have pointed out.
Phil
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Thanks Phil, I appreciate your post.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Paul - your image does not show erasing a line's [outline's] width - only it's length
I think the point John is making is a good one if we are talking about a true eraser, and not just 'a remover of already exisiting nodes'
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Hi Phil
yes - there are several ways it could be implemented :)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
Paul - your image does not show erasing a line's [outline's] width - only it's length
I think the point John is making is a good one if we are talking about a true eraser, and not just 'a remover of already exisiting nodes'
If you are talking about nibbling into a line, then you are right, but really that's not the correct logical operation for an eraser with respect to a line. Effectively an eraser will sever the line if it crosses it. It doesn't just remove existing nodes, it will add nodes to ensure that the line being severed ends at the correct place. You can see that in my example the severed lines have the correct end caps that have been chosen for the line.
If you want to nibble the shape of the line, make it a shape, then nibble. I'll make an example if you wish.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
As others have remarked Xara almost has the required functionality in place. If I drag the eraser across my shapes and lines it leaves a white shape in it's wake. When I let go that shape is essentially subtracted from any editable shapes and lines it crosses.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
edit - replying here to post #32
no need Paul - that was my starting point too for vector
which was why I was confused at first, until I realised John was taking you at your word and describing what a true eraser would have to do in a vector environment, ie erase anything it crossed over length or width...
a true eraser of lines would erase width as well as length
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PhilM
Not all of those solutions would require stroked lines to be converted permanently to shapes, leading to the problems that you have pointed out.
Yes, but other solutions may introduce other complications.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
What we draw on screen is an interpretation of a logical entity. It could be a line or a shape. If we say that something is a line, it still has a shape representing the line on screen. The eraser tool will know that this is a line and treat it as such rather than operate on the depiction of the line as an on-screen shape. If we want the eraser to treat the line as a shape, then we should make it a shape, so I don't see any ambiguity at all.
If there's any confusion about my examples, they were all made using a non-Xara vector eraser on vector shapes and lines.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
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Originally Posted by
pauland
that's not the correct logical operation for an eraser with respect to a line.
That's a correct point. But in your video you can see eraser used to remove only fragments of lines. Some of those lines are very wide. And removed fragments don't even intersect their path. So such eraser tool would be of no help in having the illustrated workflow.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
edit - to Paul:
so we can freehand draw with shapes in real time? - no, not in xara we can't [well apart from
some restricted workarounds] - there is the problem for the fast organic stuff ;)
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
handrawn
edit - to Paul:
so we can freehand draw with shapes in real time? - no, not in xara we can't [well apart from
some restricted workarounds] - there is the problem for the fast organic stuff ;)
Freehand drawing with brushes in an organic manner isn't an issue for vector applications generally. They would compliment the eraser tool very well and take Xara to a new level.
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Re: The controversial eraser tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
covoxer
That's a correct point. But in your video you can see eraser used to remove only fragments of lines. Some of those lines are very wide. And removed fragments don't even intersect their path. So such eraser tool would be of no help in having the illustrated workflow.
The video is not of a vector application. It's intended to show the applicability of the eraser tool in an artistic workflow.