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Moderators / Xhris dispute
This is just to clarify the situation regarding Xhris, the moderators and Egg's resignation as moderator.
There has been a dispute between Xhris and the moderators, which a few days ago resulted in Xhris being banned by the moderators for 1 month. We have tried to mediate and broker a solution, and clarify the processes and rules especially with regard to moderator warnings, bannings and signatures. Our interest is only in seeing a smooth running forum that recognises equally the huge value and contribution of both the solid core of long standing regular posters and the moderators.
We’ve also made it clear to the moderators that their dedication and loyalty to this forum is very much admired and appreciated by Xara and of course by the forum community. We don’t take their efforts for granted at all. And we also haven’t asked any of the moderators to leave or to cease being moderators – we very much would like them all to continue. So we’re sad to see that Egg has resigned as a moderator and would be happy to see him return to the role at any time.
Regards
Neil
Xara
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Bill's gone now! No way! What's really going on Xara?!>:|
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Maybe Bill just meant goodbye to that thread as he closed it down again?
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
NeilH thanks very much for that explanation. I’m not sure I completely understand what the problem is (was) but its quietened the conspiracy theorist within me and I hope things can return to normal a quickly as possible.
Very sorry to see that Bill also seems to have gone though.
Derek
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Quote:
Originally Posted by
angelize
Maybe Bill just meant goodbye to that thread as he closed it down again?
Unfortunately not Frances. :(
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Bill's profile still lists him as a moderator. So until Bill clarifies this I'm still holding out hope.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Bill's profile still lists him as a moderator. So until Bill clarifies this I'm still holding out hope. If we lose anymore dedicated mods TG will not be the same.
ok now how did I manage to get a double post?
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Quote:
Originally Posted by
neodeist
Bill's gone now[/URL]! No way! What's really going on Xara?!>:|
Indeed, what IS going on! I can understand that moderation can be frustrating and hard work sometimes but to loose Egg and Bill on the same day.
Also Xhris surely should be considered a valued contributor with his videos and an average post of 1 a day (according to his profile). I don't really understand Bill's last comment.
Well, since the other thread is now closed, I'll give my thanks to Egg here - he's gone above the call of duty - even as a moderator - to help me in the past.
Strange days indeed.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Xara seems to have taken the side of Xhris against the mods [I'm just reading between the lines here I emphasise] who have helped me and loads of people a whole lot more everyday. That's just my take on it - seeing as Xara is such an unusually friendly as well as helpful community I hope we get some expanded clarification asap. Not our business? Damn well is! TG is not like other forums.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Unbelievable!
I know that Egg said he would still be around, just not as a moderator, but Bill implies that he will no longer be around. This is a very sad day ......
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Hi, just to let people know I am still available on the forums to help as I can. The help material I've made for people will always be available on my website, and the videos are all still on my YouTube page (where I can also be contacted for further help). There is a new help video on there too which I hope people find useful. I'll continue to post this stuff for everyone.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Frances my goodbye means I will not be actively participating in the forums as in the past. I'm online now to reply to several PMs for which I have received email notifications.
Being a moderator requires the ability to make decisions. Xara has decided that moderators will no longer have that authority.
Spending hours of my free time is no longer desirable if I cannot be assured decisions will be upheld.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
There has been some concern expressed by Xara (who as you know, makes TalkGraphics possible), that the moderators have acted inappropriately both in the recent banning of a member as referenced by the title to this thread, but also in respect to dealing most recently with a new member who in the opinion of the moderators was behaving in an openly hostile and disruptive manner.
I am not going to go into specifics. I think the fact that Xhris has been reinstated tells you who prevailed. :rolleyes:
But I want to point out a few things about the TalkGraphics moderating staff.
All of the TalkGraphics moderators are volunteers. They don't get paid. Most give up a generous amount of their personal time moderating these conferences. If you look at the number of posts made by Steve, for example, who is the head moderator, the count is in excess of 15,000. And Steve shares his considerable knowledge not only in the Xara forums, but in the other forums as well. Steve's duties extend well beyond his appearance in the forums. He spends a fair amount of time each week behind the scenes making sure the mechanical part of the forums are running smoothly. All of the other moderators have logged similar numbers of posts. I may be wrong, but I do not think any of the moderators, with the exception of John, are employees of Xara or Magix.
User conferences are an invaluable resource used today by most software companies to provide free tech support. Questions are generally answered correctly and in a timely manner. And because the moderators are all volunteers, the cost to the software companies is a fraction of what it would cost if they "off shored" their tech support.
But more importantly, in my opinion, forums such as TalkGraphics go beyond tech support. They becomes virtual communities that bond users together and for many of us, become a special place where we can get together with our virtual friends and share our common interests.
I believe that some of the moderators think there has not been enough gratitude shown by Xara for all of the hard work and personal time they spend helping others with their questions and sharing their excellent tips and tricks with the community. Too often as long as things are running smoothly it is a case of out of sight, out of mind.
Xhris is certainly a valuable member of this community and his extensive knowledge of Xara and his video tutorials are an excellent resource.
But Xhris is just one of a large number of people who generously, 24/7 have given hundreds of hours of their time to help out Xara, the moderators.
I am sure that I am being overly dramatic here, and I am sure that Xara really does appreciate the contributions of people like Steve, Egg, Bill and all the other moderators. But being British, perhaps they just have a hard time expressing it. :D
Bill (soquili), you have been a good and loyal friend to this community and you will be sorely missed. I do not think it is widely known that you hold down a full time job and yet still found time to contribute your warmth, time and talent to helping out others. I think I speak for the rest of the community when I say, I wish you all the best will miss your generosity, your contributions and your friendship.
TalkGraphics will continue and in time I am sure all of this will be water under the bridge. In the words of Cecil, "We will shoulder on!"
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Thank you for expanding on the situation Gary.
"They become virtual communities that bond users together and for many of us, become a special place where we can get together with our virtual friends and share our common interests."
How true of TG. And - with due respect elsewhere - without yourself, Bill, Egg and Steve [the amount of accessible help and solutions he gives every day is phenomenal!] there are many of us who would be totally clueless! I doubt I would have bought/upgraded as I have done without the help this forum gives - my first Xara product would still be gathering dust in my hard-drive along with all the other programs I haven't the nous to fathom by myself - and I'm certain I'm not alone in this. Moreover - and it may sound trite, but -TG is family: I hope you're right and that won't change, but at the moment I'm a bit too sad [and angry at Xara for not letting mods mod!] to foresee. :(
If you think that's a bit too dramatic, I don't apologise ... it's the way I feel right now.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
A sad day. Much has been lost and little gained. :(
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
hmmm... two more good mods hanging em up early... sad indeed... :(
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
I came to the forum today to see discussion of the v6 that was just released only to find this thread and it saddens me.
Most software forums are populated by volunteers that help to further the program. Some do it from pure enjoyment of the software itself, others for the pleasure of helping others.
Xara makes quality products. No doubt about that.
But the support given freely on this forum has tipped the scale for many people. It strongly contributes to the repeat/upgrade sales. Appreciation for the products multiplies with the understanding of the features/benefits.
The people that help most are important to the products themselves. There are techniques demonstrated, defined, explained on this forum, found no where else by people that understand and use the products to their limits. The caliber of support provided by Xhris, Bill, Egg has been outstanding and to lose any of them on a regular basis will impact this forum, this line of products. I have been personally and professionally impacted by them. Thank you for giving of your self, your knowledge, your time to make these programs better, make our experiences better.
Sad day. :(
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
I want to lend my voice in support of our TG moderators!! We need to support them all we can. Xara please do whatever it takes to get them back! Because if we loose any more mods other members who contribute so much will soon follow.
Is it really worth it to lose Bill, Egg, Steve, Gary and possibly more over one person with only about 1700 posts?
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Hi Neil
thanks for the thread, and the clarification
its good to know there is a court of appeal
right or wrong the outcome [I know not which as I do not have the detail] it is always good to see due process in a situation
but yes it is a sad day
Sorry to see you go too Bill as moderator :( and I must echo all the grateful thanks that have been justly given to all the moderators
but, at the end of the day, helpfulness and moderating are really two separate things
moderation here has always struck me as rather ad-hoc and clique-ish
if clear rules are to be applied to members, I see no problem in the rule enforcers having clear rules too [though it depends on what they are of course]
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Hi everyone,
I'm very happy to say that I, for one, greatly appreciate the selfless contributions of all the TalkGraphics moderators over the years. As Gary said, the effort that Steve, Egg, Bill, Gary himself, and others put in is truly awe-inspiring.
Thank you!
And I'd like to say many thanks to Xhris for his highly technical and positive contributions.
I'm sure TalkGraphics will come through this upset and be just as rich and lively as ever. I'm proud to be part of this unique community! (And I hope you are too!)
Phil
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Quote:
Is it really worth it to lose Bill, Egg, Steve, Gary and possibly more over one person with only about 1700 posts?
I don't recall seeing anything about Gary (Priester) or Steve (Sledger) leaving.
If the 1700 posts is in reference to Xhris, I hope I am not judged on my postcount alone. But in the case of Xhris, it goes well beyond that - did you not see the video tutorial that he just posted? Do you know how much work something like that is? Not only to come up with what will be in it, but recording it, producing/rendering it, uploading and testing it, etc.
I would rather not see any of these folks leave. The Xara/TG community is one of many reasons why the product has value in the market. Fast, down-to-earth, no attitude longstanding members are what help to attract people to the product and thus help keep it alive for all of us to enjoy (or profit from!).
Hopefully when the dust settles, all involved will still at least want to contribute to the "normal" community, even if not moderate.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Ok I admit that I'm guessing about Steve and Gary, but haven't you noticed that Steve is strangely absent? The moderators put up with a lot, I've seen them abused and in one case even been attack by a hateful e-mail campaign. Yet they continued on. So if they feel this strongly about this that not one but two have said goodbye then I feel we should support them. Until this has been resolved I am going to hold off on anymore contributions in support of our mods.
I still do not believe that all of Xhris's contributions are worth losing at least two mods.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Well put Frances. I want to hear from Steve and Gary about whether they are staying. I think people ought to realise the difference between allowing posters to speak their minds and allowing posters to be insulting etc to other members. Mods also have to be able to moderate and not be undermined by Magix/Xara getting free [albeit good] video tutorial resources! There, I've said it. Nothing personal Xhris, you're not the only issue it seems ... I suspect this has been going on for a while ... but Frances is right imho. Steve's everyday input has helped bring recent Xara products alive.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Thanks John, The rest of us members who regularly contribute need to stand together and support our Mods!!
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Quickly adapted from an emoticon I did a while back ...
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
I've only been on TG for about 1 year. I've learned a ton of stuff from the moderators and others that so willingly share their valuable personal time to help others improve.
I can tell you I sit here with tears in my eyes that this should happen. There are bound to be personality differences, but that should be a blessing, not a curse. Effectively the moderators have been silenced and whether or not the rules seemed fair to some, they've all done a splendid job.
In my opinion, Xhris's tutorials are valuable....the suspension was deemed necessary for one month....ONE MONTH....is that worth losing 2 or 3 cracker jack mods over?
I can't speak for Xhris but I'm betting he would rather sit out a month than lose 3 moderators. And I don't mean that you ncessarily deserve the ban Xhris, I simply don't know. I'm not privvy to everything that went on obviously. I do understand that I would always try to abide by what the moderators say as that's really the only way to order on a forum. I certainly appreciate and love what you bring to the table...at whatever time that might be. Your skills and sharing of those skills is invaluable.
Those good folks (moderators) have no pay, have sometimes been attacked, and their reward.....pleasure in seeing someone improve their workflow in the program they love.
I have never been banned but have been chastised for how I've said things....sometimes just because I felt a sense of injustice...sorry to make your moderating jobs harder for you when it's hard enough guys.
I truly hope you all are able to come back and hope you are able to moderate as you should be allowed to....if not, I will not only not be on this site any longer but will also vote with my wallet as I've only got the trial version of XDP6....that's how much I feel it.
So Xara, before others decide to do what I'm seriously thinking of doing, you might want to consider your decision to push some very good people away from this site.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Like you Ed I am still using the trial version of XDP6 and If we don't see our moderators supported by Xara I won't be upgrading either. I recall Bill (soquili) posted an explanation of Xhris's suspension and if my recollections are correct the moderators were very generous in only suspending him for 1 month. That thread has been removed I think it should be reposted because even though this happened in the private moderators forum this now is affecting us ALL
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
I'm really rather horiffied by the polarisation that seems to equate moderators to angels and users to being valued on the basis of the number of posts they make. Our moderators generally do a great job but sometimes (very rarely) they do get it wrong and use a heavy hand. I don't really know the real situation, but I suspect it's not black and white.
We are fortunate to have a great moderation team, but lets remember they are people and don't always do or say the right things - just like the rest of us. Fortunately they do get it right most of the time.
I won't be joining a "back the moderators" campaign, but I'd propose a return to common sense and fair play that doesn't involve one party gaining at the expense of another. I suspect that neither party is totally right here and it would be arrogant of us to assume all moderators think the same way too.
Xhris, I'm glad to see you back and hope you don't attract the attention of the moderation team again. I'm sorry to see two moderators walk - partly because they made such a great contribution and partly because they failed to find a common ground to work with Xara and Xhris. Nobody gains from that failure.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
I totally agree with you Frances....I'm a firm believer in unity and that needs to come from the top down.....
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Nobody is perfect obviously. Moderators are not angels. I just think they've done a good job overall of regulating whilst letting people have their say. The two [three ... four???] who have had their positions undermined have also been of enormous help to people, day after day after day. I'm not trying to start a war - I love TG and its atmosphere - I want the opposite ... with the mods back in place and the community getting on as it did.
EDIT ... NICE ONE ED! :-bd
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
@Paul: I never said that our moderators never make mistakes. Of course they are human just like the rest of us.
For anyone who did not see the original post that Bill (soquili) made a few days ago that has now dissapeared Xhris was passing himself off as a moderator via his signature. He was given more than one warning to remove it when he would not the Mods suspended him for 1 month. Apparently Xara overrode the moderators and reinstated him. Now two mods have walked over this and we could lose more.
Why does Xhris rate special treatment? Is this really worth losing Egg, Bill, and possibly others? Have you noticed that Steve (sledger) has not been on since this all began? When is the last time anyone can recall a whole day go by without Steve being here? Just because there have been times when we may not have agreed with a moderators decision does not mean that we should turn our backs on them now.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
I think the moderators can stand on their own two feet and fight their own battles. I really don't think we should assume that all moderators want a particular course of action because it may seem the right thing to do. Steve hasn't been shy of expressing an opinion in the past and I haven't heard any moderator requesting any kind of campaign.
I'd rather allow the moderating team to reach their own conclusion and than try and instigate a course of action they may not want. If there had been a joint statement from the moderators on an agreed position, then that might be a differrent matter.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
For the record, I am most likely staying on as a moderator. I am giving it some time before I make any decision. I cannot speak for Steve.
I was not aware of the number of posts that Bill has made. It is right up there with Steve in the 15,000 post level. That is a heckuva lot of posts!
At any rate, there is probably more than enough blame to go around. Xara was not entirely unjustified in their criticism, and some of my fellow moderators, myself included, have some times been short with members. On the other hand, Xara might have been a tad more flexible and understanding of the job and responsibilities of the moderator staff.
In the meantime, while the remaining moderators sort it out, I ask all the members to pitch in and help where you can. There is a link at the top of the forum screen, Unanswered Posts. Normally there are no more than a handful of these unanswered posts. But the list is getting rather long. So if you can help out with an answer or a pointer, please do so.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gwpriester
There has been some concern expressed by Xara (who as you know, makes TalkGraphics possible), that the moderators have acted inappropriately both in the recent banning of a member as referenced by the title to this thread, but also in respect to dealing most recently with a new member who in the opinion of the moderators was behaving in an openly hostile and disruptive manner.
I am not going to go into specifics. I think the fact that Xhris has been reinstated tells you who prevailed. :rolleyes:
But I want to point out a few things about the TalkGraphics moderating staff.
All of the TalkGraphics moderators are volunteers. They don't get paid. Most give up a generous amount of their personal time moderating these conferences. If you look at the number of posts made by Steve, for example, who is the head moderator, the count is in excess of 15,000. And Steve shares his considerable knowledge not only in the Xara forums, but in the other forums as well. Steve's duties extend well beyond his appearance in the forums. He spends a fair amount of time each week behind the scenes making sure the mechanical part of the forums are running smoothly. All of the other moderators have logged similar numbers of posts. I may be wrong, but I do not think any of the moderators, with the exception of John, are employees of Xara or Magix.
User conferences are an invaluable resource used today by most software companies to provide free tech support. Questions are generally answered correctly and in a timely manner. And because the moderators are all volunteers, the cost to the software companies is a fraction of what it would cost if they "off shored" their tech support.
But more importantly, in my opinion, forums such as TalkGraphics go beyond tech support. They becomes virtual communities that bond users together and for many of us, become a special place where we can get together with our virtual friends and share our common interests.
I believe that some of the moderators think there has not been enough gratitude shown by Xara for all of the hard work and personal time they spend helping others with their questions and sharing their excellent tips and tricks with the community. Too often as long as things are running smoothly it is a case of out of sight, out of mind.
Xhris is certainly a valuable member of this community and his extensive knowledge of Xara and his video tutorials are an excellent resource.
But Xhris is just one of a large number of people who generously, 24/7 have given hundreds of hours of their time to help out Xara, the moderators.
I am sure that I am being overly dramatic here, and I am sure that Xara really does appreciate the contributions of people like Steve, Egg, Bill and all the other moderators. But being British, perhaps they just have a hard time expressing it. :D
Bill (soquili), you have been a good and loyal friend to this community and you will be sorely missed. I do not think it is widely known that you hold down a full time job and yet still found time to contribute your warmth, time and talent to helping out others. I think I speak for the rest of the community when I say, I wish you all the best will miss your generosity, your contributions and your friendship.
TalkGraphics will continue and in time I am sure all of this will be water under the bridge. In the words of Cecil, "We will shoulder on!"
Hello Gary,
I don't understand the point "who as you know, makes TalkGraphics possible" I think it is in the other way around, XARA is not possible without talkgraphics or without xaraxone, everybody knows I love xara, it gives me a lot of satisfaction everyday, but all of us know that xara is not an standard in market and everytime you want to send a work made using xara you have to export in another format, that is to say xara is not corel or AI, but but but in my opinion as I expressed to every new member who asks about xara the greatest difference between xara and the rest is TG and xaraxone, I'm sure that xara is not the same without TG and TG are all the people who shares theire knowledge, but overall you the moderators who always are here at anytime, I've been surprised when Steve, Bill or Egg answer a question at 2 or 3am instead of being sleeping, now when you say that all this is made for free it is more unveliebable, 15000 post ???? who dares to rule an opinion/action taken by a 15000 post person and for free????.
I'm very sad, I'm very sad for the situation, for Bill, for Egg, for Xhris, for us.
TG will be not the same without Bill and Egg.
Im sending a Thank you by all theire help given to us during this time.
I hope that my english is clear enough to express in a correct way what I wanted to say.
Best regards and I hope this situation change and they return here, not for xara but for keep on sharing with us a passion.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Well I suppose this is going to be the shortest break a person can take. Gary has appealed to our common sense while this gets sorted out.....don't get me wrong, I think it's terrible that Bill, Egg and Steve are not available for service as moderators right now but the remaining moderator(s) need help....so whatever I'm able to do to help the moderators as per direction from one of our best contributor moderators, then I'm in for whatever I'm able to do......
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Hey I think I loose something elsSteve is also out?????e,
Come on what's going on????.
I'm totally lost.
I think that anybody has to be able to resolve this.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Hi Javier,
I'm sorry, didn't mean to startle you....Steve just hasn't been around all day and that's very unusual.
I don't believe Steve would leave without at least saying goodbye and wishing people well....I suspect he's just sitting back at the moment doing what many are doing right now....and that's trying to assess the situation and do what's right for down the road.
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Re: Moderators / Xhris dispute
Sorry, but in my eyes, the need for moderation is paramount.
Just like in sport,the referee's decision is final. Could you imagine how effective the referees in the world cup would be if FIFA overruled half of their decisions.
Moderation is the same. They aren't angels (agreed) and sometimes they make decisions that we may not agree with even if we were in possession of the full facts. The moderators forum is closed to us, and I'm sure that there are some prolonged heated discussions before a ban or suspension is imposed. Sometimes they may even make wrong decisions, but in the end the moderators (referee's) decision should be final. Period. Or it's not worth having moderation, and anarchy will prevail.